Ghosts

[Cat Burger]

[Bellend Sebastian]

I cannot be arsed to look for a good article on it (but paradoxically can be arsed to write a slightly rambling post) but there was a dead good thing on a science programme on R4 late last year about how a lot of supposed paranormal activity can be explained by low resonance vibration, the presence of which, within certain frequencies, can make you feel a chill, a sense of foreboding and even, fantastically enough, see vague shapes of figures, particularly in your peripheral vision. I've heard this theory being used to explain the number of daft Americans that claim to have been visited by aliens (the resonance emanating from the earth) but this programme was particularly interesting as they were talking about a scientist who was experiencing this sort of thing when working in the lab late in the evenings. Now, being of a scientific bent, he thought that ghosts and that were BOLLOCKS, but as he kept seeing something that could be construed as that very thing, he thought there must be a rational explanation. He knew a bit about the old low frequency resonance theory, and went looking for a source of vibration, and then, lo and behold, he found that a faulty air conditioning unit was vibrating at exactly the right frequency to induce those nearby to have weird experiences. They had it fixed, and the 'paranormal' stuff stopped immediately. He then supposedly visited a few other sites which were known for ghostly goings on, and recorded resonance in the exact same frequency range.

It's an explanation that somehow manages to be both fascinating and very boring at the same time. Amazing.

Despite this apparent solving of the mystery, I still wouldn't be inclined to hang around my partner's place of work on my own because some of the stuff reported there sounds absolutely terrifying

[Captain...]

There is a one million dollar prize for any nutjob who can prove the existence of ghosts. This prize has been up for grabs since 2007. Not one nutjob has claimed it. The use of the term 'nutjob' is not a scientific one, it was a personal choice.

Can't explain the presence of life? I refer you to Miller–Urey and then Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions Matthew W. Powner, Beatrice Gerland & John D. Sutherland. Nature, Vol. 460, May 13, 2009.

Room for spirituality? This translates to 'in the absence of someone not being able to prove the thing I've made up doesn't exist, the thing I've made up must exist.' It's what churches based centuries of oppression, fear and abuse on.

There are no unexplainable 'facts' - the absence of facts is what makes pseudo-science what it is: a wacking great pile of bollocks.

That is not proof of life, "plausible" conditions is hardly fact, yes we can recreate things based on what we suppose might have happened, and it may will be right, but it is hardly concrete proof, for example we can recreate the conditions that created the big bang in a giant underground tube, does that mean the big bang was created by people with a big underground tube?

You can talk about quarks and anti matter, things which sound like psuedo-science bollocks, but are actually now becoming scientific fact despite how crazy they actually appear to be.

Spirituality doesn't mean:"'in the absence of someone not being able to prove the thing I've made up doesn't exist, the thing I've made up must exist.'" It is about accepting there are bigger things and forces at work in this world then you or I understand and sometimes we are at their mercy and sometimes we benefit from their bounty. Maybe one day everything will be explainable by science, maybe science will realise that we all posess a certain amount of latent psychic ability that when concentrated and focussed can create collective hallucinations or even cause telekinesis.

I believe you have experienced something like it, in 1996 at wembley, were you part of the thousands of people who all experienced and witnessed time in slow motion, who saw and felt the world slow down and a collective silence of disbelief.

That incident as much as anything else freaks me out, when people talk of it, it is unfathomable that so many people experienced it just like me.

Of course it can be dismissed and a scientific theory applied to explain it, and it is not proof of anything, but if you were there you will know that it wasn't something normal.

[Guest]

Just because something can't be explained through our limited knowledge does not mean that there are ghosts.

I don't know how many people have died in histroy but I'm guessing we'd all have seen ghosts pretty regularly if they really existed.

Still you can "believe" whatever you want.

[Captain...]

Just because something can't be explained through our limited knowledge does not mean that there are ghosts.

I don't know how many people have died in histroy but I'm guessing we'd all have seen ghosts pretty regularly if they really existed.

Still you can "believe" whatever you want.

Likewise, just because we can explain a number of ghostly sightings and feelings, doesn't mean that there aren't things that we can't explain, the idea of ghosts being the restless souls of dead people is a little far fetched, but the idea of them being past echoes, where some incident has psychically imprinted itself like a recording on the world.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Likewise, just because we can explain a number of ghostly sightings and feelings, doesn't mean that there aren't things that we can't explain, the idea of ghosts being the restless souls of dead people is a little far fetched, but the idea of them being past echoes, where some incident has psychically imprinted itself like a recording on the world.

I can believe that. My Auntie Marg sat in the same chair pretty much all the time for about 60 years watching quiz shows (with only occasional trips to Sainsburys and coach holidays to break up the monotony), and my Gran swore that she kept seeing her there in the couple of years after she died. I reckon it was imprinted on my Gran's brain rather than 'on the world', so to speak

[Guest]

Likewise, just because we can explain a number of ghostly sightings and feelings, doesn't mean that there aren't things that we can't explain, the idea of ghosts being the restless souls of dead people is a little far fetched, but the idea of them being past echoes, where some incident has psychically imprinted itself like a recording on the world.

Ghostly sightings? how can they be ghostly sightings given the facts - they are simply unexplained events and unexplained events are not at all uncommon.

I concur that there are things we can't explain - that's my point - it doesn't make them supernatural.

I'd say your final idea sounds far fetched too. - what is a psychic impression? How does that work? How come only a few people can see/feel them?

I'm saying that the typical idea of ghosts is impossible. some form of energy linked to the death of a person in the past is possible but if that was the case there'd be no reason that more people wouldn't see more of them all the time.

[Guest]

I can believe that. My Auntie Marg sat in the same chair pretty much all the time for about 60 years watching quiz shows (with only occasional trips to Sainsburys and coach holidays to break up the monotony), and my Gran swore that she kept seeing her there in the couple of years after she died. I reckon it was imprinted on my Gran's brain rather than 'on the world', so to speak

I can accept that - that your gran saw her (not that she was there). If everybody else who visited the house didn't see her I cannot accept that she was there.

[Captain...]

Ghostly sightings? how can they be ghostly sightings given the facts - they are simply unexplained events and unexplained events are not at all uncommon.

I concur that there are things we can't explain - that's my point - it doesn't make them supernatural.

I'd say your final idea sounds far fetched too. - what is a psychic impression? How does that work? How come only a few people can see/feel them?

I'm saying that the typical idea of ghosts is impossible. some form of energy linked to the death of a person in the past is possible but if that was the case there'd be no reason that more people wouldn't see more of them all the time.

Probably should have put ghostly sightings in inverted commas, what I meant was a lot of them can be explained as shadows and vibrations, and a willingness to see what isn't there.

There was an MTV prank show, I don't know what it was called, but they did a haunted house prank, and at one point somebody pretended that they had seen something, and the victim also said that she had seen it. Some people are weak minded and susceptible to these kind of things.

Other explanations why some see things and others don't could be about psychic atunement, if there is such a thing as psychic energy some people will be more atuned to it than others. We still don't really understand the Brain, or what it is capable of, it is perfectly feasible that it gives off psychic vibrations and these can be picked up by others, the twins phenomenon for example, so it maybe that in times of distress your brain could give off a psychic distress signal calling out for help. This then leaves an impression. Or like in Spherical Fox's example someone just occupies the same space for a long period of time and leave a different kind of psychic impression, maybe a weaker one that only those that were closest to her or had spent the most time with her could pick up on.

Of course this is all psuedo science bollocks as "Daggers" would put it, but then so was orbitting the Sun and being descended from Monkeys until it was "proven".

[Guest]

Fair enough.

You are accepting that "psychic energy " may not exist so how can I disagree with anything after that?

I understood that Spherical fox's gran's was not an actual impression but a memory.

If psychic energy existed , I could agree that people would be better attuned than others but then I'd expect them to be able to see "ghosts" regularly just like people with a better sense of smell can ALWAYS smell things from further away than others.

[sphericalfox]

I feel a bit like a ghost myself. Can anyone hear me? <taps on the internet for recognition>

Two posts mention my name yet I never posted a thing.

Now that's spooky.

[Guest]

I feel a bit like a ghost myself. Can anyone hear me? <taps on the internet for recognition>

Two posts mention my name yet I never posted a thing.

Now that's spooky.

Sorry ,

Since cap shrap said your name I thought perhaps you were a bellend bellend sebastian

[Bellend Sebastian]

Sorry ,

Since cap shrap said your name I thought perhaps you were a bellend bellend sebastian

There's a lot of us about

[Captain...]

I feel a bit like a ghost myself. Can anyone hear me? <taps on the internet for recognition>

Two posts mention my name yet I never posted a thing.

Now that's spooky.

I have sigs switched off, and looking at pictures is easier than reading words so I just look at the profile pic saw a fox and thought of you,it is worse with acooling and Lcfcstu, they have the same profile pic, I am still not sure which one is the racist and which one is the sexist.

Surely Bellend Sebastian should be feeling like a ghost, we have been ignoring him, maybe you psychically projected yourself.

[Daggers]

That is not proof of life

It fvcking well is, Craig Venter did it...although I suspect you did not mean to write that statement.

for example we can recreate the conditions that created the big bang in a giant underground tube, does that mean the big bang was created by people with a big underground tube?

Do you have any understanding of particle physics whatsoever?

You can talk about quarks and anti matter, things which sound like psuedo-science bollocks

Ahh, the answer's 'no', then.

Spirituality doesn't mean:"'in the absence of someone not being able to prove the thing I've made up doesn't exist, the thing I've made up must exist.'" It is about...

...and there you insert a catch-all comment which places unprovable mysticism and bunkum at the core of your belief system.

Maybe one day everything will be explainable by science, maybe science will realise that we all posess a certain amount of latent psychic ability that when concentrated and focussed can create collective hallucinations or even cause telekinesis.

I don't want to make this personal, but your argument is shit. Science is not an entity, it is not corporeal, it does not have the power to "realise". For the final time, it is a system of processing information and ranking the accuracy of such. It is not a belief system.

Supply me with one piece of tested evidence to support the conjecture that there is such a thing as telekinesis. I'll cut to the chase here - you can't, there isn't any. Since the concept was dreamt up in 1890 there has not been one single example of a repeatable, evidential test. Not one.

I believe you have experienced something like it, in 1996 at wembley, were you part of the thousands of people who all experienced and witnessed time in slow motion, who saw and felt the world slow down and a collective silence of disbelief.

I have experienced nothing of the sort - but more importantly I have not read one paper which has carried out repeatable experiments to prove the existence of such.

Some people claim to have seen fairies, just because they claim it does not make it real.

Of course it can be dismissed and a scientific theory applied to explain it, and it is not proof of anything, but if you were there you will know that it wasn't something normal.

The only thing that is not normal is your denial of fact and evidence, and willingness to glorify ignorance and superstition.

Likewise, just because we can explain a number of ghostly sightings and feelings, doesn't mean that there aren't things that we can't explain, the idea of ghosts being the restless souls of dead people is a little far fetched, but the idea of them being past echoes, where some incident has psychically imprinted itself like a recording on the world.

Guff.

Of course this is all psuedo science bollocks as "Daggers" would put it, but then so was orbitting the Sun and being descended from Monkeys until it was "proven".

You clearly have no idea whatsoever what constitutes science, natural events and pseudoscience bollocks.

I don't come on here to educate and I certainly am not going to be able to change your mind seeing as you want to believe pixies could exist and secretly control the world. I've made my point, repeatedly, so that's it for this thread.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Surely Bellend Sebastian should be feeling like a ghost, we have been ignoring him

It's cool, I'm used to it. Ignore away

I've made my point, repeatedly, so that's it for this thread.

I thought you were just getting going

[Finnegan]

The mind is an immensely powerful bit of kit and has billions if images and memories stored inside. It's fairly easy for it to get mislead in the right context and I think that's where a majority of ghost sightings come from. Bellend's gran's brain expected to see his aunt, she was always there, so it would presumptively cut a corner for a split enough fragment of time for it to register.

How many people on here are scared of spiders and have sworn blind to have seen one in the blink of an eye in either their peripheral or drowsy vision?

[Guest]

it is worse with acooling and Lcfcstu, they have the same profile pic, I am still not sure which one is the racist and which one is the sexist.

[Guest]

It's cool, I'm used to it. Ignore away

sorry, Who are you?

[Guest]

The mind is an immensely powerful bit of kit and has billions if images and memories stored inside. It's fairly easy for it to get mislead in the right context and I think that's where a majority of ghost sightings come from. Bellend's gran's brain expected to see his aunt, she was always there, so it would presumptively cut a corner for a split enough fragment of time for it to register.

Agreed.

unexplained does not equal unexplainable (eventually)

[Captain...]

Shoutiness

The point I am trying to make is that things we now accept as fact weren't always the case and even with the scientific theory they still seem fantastical and ludicrous such as sub atomic particles behaving differently when observed, and yes there is no evidence for some of the things that have been spoken about in this thread, but that doesn't mean that they are not possible.

The Miller Urey experiment did not prove how life started on earth, it showed that chemical basis for life could form spontaneously from abiotic origins given the correct starting conditions. It gives weight to a theory that this is how life came about but it proves nothing.

I brought up the collective experience by those at Wembley in 1996, because so many people felt it, is it proof of anything supernatural? No, does it make me think that we are interconnected and that there could be psychic links between human beings, some connections more powerful than others,that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Or something like that, I think you may want to give your third eye a little squeegee daggers

[Daggers]

Yorkshire Rose or cinquefoil?

You decide.

[Zingari]

A team of 20 top scientists assembled by Mr Venter, led by the Nobel laureate Hamilton Smith, has already constructed a synthetic chromosome, a feat of virtuoso bio-engineering never previously achieved. Using lab-made chemicals, they have painstakingly stitched together a chromosome that is 381 genes long and contains 580,000 base pairs of genetic code.

The DNA sequence is based on the bacterium Mycoplasma genitalium which the team pared down to the bare essentials needed to support life, removing a fifth of its genetic make-up. The wholly synthetically reconstructed chromosome, which the team have christened Mycoplasma laboratorium, has been watermarked with inks for easy recognition.

It is then transplanted into a living bacterial cell and in the final stage of the process it is expected to take control of the cell and in effect become a new life form. The team of scientists has already successfully transplanted the genome of one type of bacterium into the cell of another, effectively changing the cell's species. Mr Venter said he was "100% confident" the same technique would work for the artificially created chromosome.

I admit that I know absolutely nothing about this stuff , but with this description of his experiments I'm struggling to see how it can be claimed that he has "created life". Surely adapting life that is already there is more apt

[purpleronnie]

Ghosts do not exist, anyone who thinks they do is an idiot.

/thread

[Guest]

Great opportunity for one of my favourite bands and songs: