Israel

[Saladin]

All I know is that if some force came to England and forced us out of our homes into Wales, then held us prisoner for 60 years and stole our water supplies and generally messed us up, then alot of our men would be fighting back. Especially if we had lost loved ones. If anyone came here now and started blowing us up with tanks and planes you know we would fight with anything we could use. Why should anyone else react differently?

There are still many Jews opposed to the state of Israel.

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[breadandcheese]

That is why Hamas started to fire rockets again; Israel did NOT raise these blockades, which have a crippling effect on the Gazan population. Also there are still many illegal settlements still in the West Bank, which Israel still has not vacated.

What Hamas is doing is wrong, but Israel is just as, if not more, worse.

The question remains unanswered. What did Hamas and indeed Hamas supporters hope to achieve by firing the rockets? The blockade would not be raised. The crippling effects on the Gazan population would not be stopped.

After Israel pulled out of Gaza, the border between Egypt and Gaza was open under EU monitoring. These monitors were withdrawn by the EU after Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and the border was closed under the agreement with Egypt, which said that the border could only be open if EU monitors were present.

As I say, Gaza is a very easy situation to solve. There is no territorial dispute over Gaza, it is now about trust building and securing borders, such that the borders can be reopened. This can then lead on to discussions about the West Bank.

[stez]

The question remains unanswered. What did Hamas and indeed Hamas supporters hope to achieve by firing the rockets? The blockade would not be raised. The crippling effects on the Gazan population would not be stopped.

After Israel pulled out of Gaza, the border between Egypt and Gaza was open under EU monitoring. These monitors were withdrawn by the EU after Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and the border was closed under the agreement with Egypt, which said that the border could only be open if EU monitors were present.

As I say, Gaza is a very easy situation to solve. There is no territorial dispute over Gaza, it is now about trust building and securing borders, such that the borders can be reopened. This can then lead on to discussions about the West Bank.

unfortunately there's always the problem of people being involved, which tends to scupper any decent theory

[Dr The Singh]

All I know is that if some force came to England and forced us out of our homes into Wales, then held us prisoner for 60 years and stole our water supplies and generally messed us up, then alot of our men would be fighting back. Especially if we had lost loved ones. If anyone came here now and started blowing us up with tanks and planes you know we would fight with anything we could use. Why should anyone else react differently?

Would you attack women and children??? Or would you do the right thing and fight there armed forces?????

[Dr The Singh]

unfortunately there's always the problem of people being involved, which tends to scupper any decent theory

*ahem* There's always the Middle East Peace Envoy Tony Blair???????

[Jon the Hat]

The question remains unanswered. What did Hamas and indeed Hamas supporters hope to achieve by firing the rockets? The blockade would not be raised. The crippling effects on the Gazan population would not be stopped.

After Israel pulled out of Gaza, the border between Egypt and Gaza was open under EU monitoring. These monitors were withdrawn by the EU after Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and the border was closed under the agreement with Egypt, which said that the border could only be open if EU monitors were present.

As I say, Gaza is a very easy situation to solve. There is no territorial dispute over Gaza, it is now about trust building and securing borders, such that the borders can be reopened. This can then lead on to discussions about the West Bank.

Utter desperation and the basic human need to feel like they have some slight ability to affect their destiny by fighting. They are not capable as a people to stop and look rationally at the situation and have a cool headed strategy because of the nature of their day to day lives, as mostly orchestrated by the Israeli's.

[Dr The Singh]

Utter desperation and the basic human need to feel like they have some slight ability to affect their destiny by fighting. They are not capable as a people to stop and look rationally at the situation and have a cool headed strategy because of the nature of their day to day lives, as mostly orchestrated by the Israeli's.

I apologise for my ignorance, but isn't Palestine given aid by the west etc and can someone please explain what in recent events has Israel done to 'deprive' the palistinians basic human needs!! It's just I was watching a documentary on Yasser Arafat and his goons, they were living like kings?????????

[breadandcheese]

Utter desperation and the basic human need to feel like they have some slight ability to affect their destiny by fighting. They are not capable as a people to stop and look rationally at the situation and have a cool headed strategy because of the nature of their day to day lives, as mostly orchestrated by the Israeli's.

I disagree that they're unable to look rationally at the situation. Palestinian society is just as vibrant as ours when it comes to politics and differing opinions, if not more so. I would be very interested to hear the discussions going on behind closed gaza doors as to their thoughts on the situation. Obviously, they will be anti-Israel, quite understandably due to the nature of Israel's actions, but it would be interesting to hear their views on Hamas. Hamas were voted in, not for their policies to Israelis, but because they were seen as less corrupt than Fatah. I would be interested to see a new poll should elections be held tomorrow as I remember reading somewhere there was growing disquiet about Hamas and their way of governance.

I would also argue that the more radical elements of Hamas are based in Syria where they are not affected by blockades or the struggle, so the issue of not having a cool headed strategy because of the nature of day-to-day lives is questionable.

[BoneDog]

A case in point is the rocket firing by Hamas. The rockets are crude, inaccurate, and do not have the explosive power that would be desired (although to call them no more than a firework is obviously dramatically stretching the truth to make a point). So the question to ask is what are Hamas hoping to gain by firing the rockets? They will not liberate any land. They will not open the borders between Gaza and Israel. They will not achieve anything and will certainly not better the living conditions of the Palestinian people living in the Gaza Strip.

Hamas will be pretty powerless to stop the rocket attacks because they are home-made out of pipes and fertilizer. Random guys make them at home and fire them. If we were under occupation there would be plenty of random guys planning attacks on the enemy which would be almost impossible for our government to stop. Once the police raided one set of fighters another group would pop up, so it's not an easy thing to put an end to.

[davieG]

This thread reflects why it's hard to get a solution, every time somebody questions the actions of either side there's always someone ready to respond with an excuse for / justifying those actions.

The whole thing is like a bunch of irrational children arguing over who started it and who's prolonging it. The simple fact is that at some point the fighting will have to stop and rational talking will have to start, all this fighting, to put it simple is just a combination of brinkmanship and one-upmanship.

[BoneDog]

I apologise for my ignorance, but isn't Palestine given aid by the west etc and can someone please explain what in recent events has Israel done to 'deprive' the palistinians basic human needs!! It's just I was watching a documentary on Yasser Arafat and his goons, they were living like kings?????????

The Palestinians are probably given some aid of course, but Israel recieves more aid from the US than all other countrys put together. Something like 6 million dollars a day. Sounds unbelievable but it's true. I think it's 20 something billion a year the Israel government recieves in aid. Plus all the helicopters, fighter jets, tanks and even a couple of nuclear submarines. I saw a docu on youtube about it and it wasn't one of them mad conspiracy things, was a proper documentary from English TV with documented proof about the figures.

As for what Israel has done to deprive basic human needs of Palestinians, I'm not exactly sure but I know that all the settlements get the water supplies diverted to them and they have swimming pools and frickin garden sprinklers and stuff while the Pal's only have drinking water turned on for a couple hours a day. Palestinians also have their good farm land stolen (which they and their families have owned for centuries) which results in them not being able to grow food.

As Alan Partridge would say, 'It's bang out of order'.

[breadandcheese]

Hamas will be pretty powerless to stop the rocket attacks because they are home-made out of pipes and fertilizer. Random guys make them at home and fire them. If we were under occupation there would be plenty of random guys planning attacks on the enemy which would be almost impossible for our government to stop. Once the police raided one set of fighters another group would pop up, so it's not an easy thing to put an end to.

That's simply not true. Notwithstanding the fact that Hamas are firing rockets, it takes orchestration and coordination to manufacture and fire these weapons. I would imagine you need:

- The ability to procure the materials necessary. Things like fertiliser, pipes, etc, have to be smuggled into the Gaza Strip, which means those who operate the tunnels are aware and have to be prepared to help. As the borders are closed, this is the only way for them to enter. Should a Palestinian government want to stop rockets, this would be the first place to start.

- The ability to manufacture the rockets. It requires machinery and specialist training. All of which has to be acquired. Also, if you are producing rockets in large numbers, it is not something you can keep hidden easily.

- The ability to fire them without getting caught/shot/blown up. Again, this is not easy in a small strip of land and something you can do without tacit support from Hamas.

There's also the issue of some of the rockets being Iranian made Grad rockets that are smuggled into the Gaza Strip, so it is more orchestrated than you suggest.

[BoneDog]

- The ability to manufacture the rockets. It requires machinery and specialist training. All of which has to be acquired. Also, if you are producing rockets in large numbers, it is not something you can keep hidden easily.

- The ability to fire them without getting caught/shot/blown up. Again, this is not easy in a small strip of land and something you can do without tacit support from Hamas.

It doesn't require machinery, I've seen em do it on youtube. They just use a welder to put the ends on. It looks easy, they are very basic things. And when it comes to firing them they just run out into an olive grove or a few trees, prop em up on a stick, light em, fire em and leg it. It's all on youtube

[Hullfox]

It doesn't require machinery, I've seen em do it on youtube. They just use a welder to put the ends on. It looks easy, they are very basic things. And when it comes to firing them they just run out into an olive grove or a few trees, prop em up on a stick, light em, fire em and leg it. It's all on youtube

I think that you will find that the capacity to fire rockets long distance is not entirely based on sticking a firework on a stick.

[Mickyblueeyes]

I apologise for my ignorance, but isn't Palestine given aid by the west etc and can someone please explain what in recent events has Israel done to 'deprive' the palistinians basic human needs!! It's just I was watching a documentary on Yasser Arafat and his goons, they were living like kings?????????

A democratically elected government has been ignored and its opposition has been supported in order to make the state ungovernable by Hamas.

Ismail Haniyeh is very different man to Arafat infact it was due to Arafat's exploitation of the Palestininans (most of his supporters are now led by Abbas) that Hamas grew in popularity.

The fact is Hamas were only firing rockets into Israel because of the blockades set in place by the Israelis (Israel's argument is this was Hamas's own doing, thats whole other can of worms) which stopped Gaza from functioning. Israel's other argument is Hamas "claim" to ignore their right to exist....err no they just say that East Jerusalem should be in Palestinian hands.

Hamas are not completely innocent in this saga, however, the media choses to ignore that just because the result of a election wasnt to the U.S/Britains or Israel's liking it was appropriate to ignore the rightful leaders of Palestine.

Whether we like it or not a majority chose Hamas and Haniyeh as their leader and therefore must be respected in order to give the average Palestinian a feeling of empowerment. Who are we to tell them who is or is not right for them?

Would we find it appropriate if France turned round and said screw Labour we wanted the conservatives after one of our general elections (That wouldnt neccesarily be a bad thing at the moment!)

[Zingari]

I think that you will find that the capacity to fire rockets long distance is not entirely based on sticking a firework on a stick.

i don't think that the intricate series of tunnels set up as supply lines would be needed if that's all there was to it either

[BoneDog]

i don't think that the intricate series of tunnels set up as supply lines would be needed if that's all there was to it either

There are no intricate series of tunnels. It' impossible. The Egyptian army are always patrolling the border. can you remember all the lies that the US and UK governments came out with before Iraq war? This is the same thing, just propaganda to justify their actions. If there were such tunnels then the fighters would be smuggling in alot more than old steel drainpipes and fertilizer. They would have allsorts of quality weaponry. All they really have is AK's and pistols which they have had for years

[l444ry]

There are no intricate series of tunnels. It' impossible. The Egyptian army are always patrolling the border. can you remember all the lies that the US and UK governments came out with before Iraq war? This is the same thing, just propaganda to justify their actions. If there were such tunnels then the fighters would be smuggling in alot more than old steel drainpipes and fertilizer. They would have allsorts of quality weaponry. All they really have is AK's and pistols which they have had for years

To deny the tunnels exist has just destroyed you as a serious contributor to this debate.......

[Guest Bilo]

A democratically elected government has been ignored and its opposition has been supported in order to make the state ungovernable by Hamas.

Ismail Haniyeh is very different man to Arafat infact it was due to Arafat's exploitation of the Palestininans (most of his supporters are now led by Abbas) that Hamas grew in popularity.

The fact is Hamas were only firing rockets into Israel because of the blockades set in place by the Israelis (Israel's argument is this was Hamas's own doing, thats whole other can of worms) which stopped Gaza from functioning. Israel's other argument is Hamas "claim" to ignore their right to exist....err no they just say that East Jerusalem should be in Palestinian hands.

Hamas are not completely innocent in this saga, however, the media choses to ignore that just because the result of a election wasnt to the U.S/Britains or Israel's liking it was appropriate to ignore the rightful leaders of Palestine.

Whether we like it or not a majority chose Hamas and Haniyeh as their leader and therefore must be respected in order to give the average Palestinian a feeling of empowerment. Who are we to tell them who is or is not right for them?

Would we find it appropriate if France turned round and said screw Labour we wanted the conservatives after one of our general elections (That wouldnt neccesarily be a bad thing at the moment!)

Quotes from the Hamas Charter

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

It isn't an argument of Israel that Hamas does not recognise its right to exist, it is documented by Hamas themselves.

[BoneDog]

To deny the tunnels exist has just destroyed you as a serious contributor to this debate.......

Show me some tunnel vids or pics then? I've seen holes knocked between houses but no tunnels. I've seen them showing some grainy pictures of ground being bombed with two arrows pointing at it saying 'tunnels'.

And why are they not smuggling useful weapons in then if they have these tunnels?

I don't think I've been destroyed as a serious contributor to this debate just because I say they are not smuggling things in through tunnels. Just because you believe they have intricate tunnels in and out of Palestine (what a joke) doesn't mean you have won the debate.

The people who tell you about the tunnels have been proven to tell fibs about all sorts of things, and yet you continue to nod when they say things. It's about time you realised that your 'rulers' don't give a shit about you and will lie to you whenever they feel like it.

[Dr The Singh]

Quotes from the Hamas Charter

It isn't an argument of Israel that Hamas does not recognise its right to exist, it is documented by Hamas themselves.

There lies a small problem, that way of thinking has no place for any leadership party, government or nation!!!

[BoneDog]

To deny the tunnels exist has just destroyed you as a serious contributor to this debate.......

I can remember ITV, BBC and Sky news showing me pictures of labs and trucks etc. with WMD's in them back in 2002. But these reports were pure bullshit. So please don't tell me I'm stupid for disagreeing with an arguement that is so blatantly a lie.

[Zingari]

I can remember ITV, BBC and Sky news showing me pictures of labs and trucks etc. with WMD's in them back in 2002. But these reports were pure bullshit. So please don't tell me I'm stupid for disagreeing with an arguement that is so blatantly a lie.

nothing wrong with a bit of healthy scepticism , but are Hamas denying they exist ? ( genuine question )

[Guest Bilo]

Show me some tunnel vids or pics then? I've seen holes knocked between houses but no tunnels. I've seen them showing some grainy pictures of ground being bombed with two arrows pointing at it saying 'tunnels'.

And why are they not smuggling useful weapons in then if they have these tunnels?

I don't think I've been destroyed as a serious contributor to this debate just because I say they are not smuggling things in through tunnels. Just because you believe they have intricate tunnels in and out of Palestine (what a joke) doesn't mean you have won the debate.

The people who tell you about the tunnels have been proven to tell fibs about all sorts of things, and yet you continue to nod when they say things. It's about time you realised that your 'rulers' don't give a shit about you and will lie to you whenever they feel like it.

Gaza Tunnels Picture and article

Video and Pictures

[l444ry]

I can remember ITV, BBC and Sky news showing me pictures of labs and trucks etc. with WMD's in them back in 2002. But these reports were pure bullshit. So please don't tell me I'm stupid for disagreeing with an arguement that is so blatantly a lie.

Ever heard of the saying: When you're in a hole , stop digging?