Israel

[Zingari]

Ever heard of the saying: When you're in a hole , stop digging?

he doesn't believe it is a hole though

[Guest Bilo]

he doesn't believe it is a hole though

Ba dum TISH!!

[l444ry]

he doesn't believe it is a hole though

Yeah. Come to think of it, the only holes I can see are the ones in his argument!!

[ronnup]

And can you point to something that shows the Palestinians aren't just a one trick pony?. I fear not.

The Palestinians are medieval and blood thirsty, they are Alien to modern times.

what a fooking idiot. I'd keep clear of this debate if i was you lad, you're clearly well out if your depth.

[BoneDog]

OK you've shown me a picture of some kind of tunnel. So please tell me what they are smuggling through them? Drainpipes and fertilizer? Do you honestly believe those tunnels have Palestinians going through them bringing weapons back and forth? Fact is they have no weapons. Just old AK's and crap they've had for years. If they had the capacity to smuggle weapons they would have shot down one or two of those helicopters you see hovering on the news every day.

You believe what you want, that's not my problem.

[Alexikokopops]

OK you've shown me a picture of some kind of tunnel. So please tell me what they are smuggling through them? Drainpipes and fertilizer? Do you honestly believe those tunnels have Palestinians going through them bringing weapons back and forth? Fact is they have no weapons. Just old AK's and crap they've had for years. If they had the capacity to smuggle weapons they would have shot down one or two of those helicopters you see hovering on the news every day.

You believe what you want, that's not my problem.

Just out of curiosity how are you so certain about what weapons they have? You seem quite ready to dismiss any reports of tunnels and the like from sources like BBC News (yet trust You Tube even though we've had proof even videos can be bollocks), what sources are you using?

[Zingari]

OK you've shown me a picture of some kind of tunnel. So please tell me what they are smuggling through them? Drainpipes and fertilizer? Do you honestly believe those tunnels have Palestinians going through them bringing weapons back and forth? Fact is they have no weapons. Just old AK's and crap they've had for years. If they had the capacity to smuggle weapons they would have shot down one or two of those helicopters you see hovering on the news every day.

You believe what you want, that's not my problem.

you could be right ,

as i said before , there is nothing wrong with a bit of healthy skepticism , and if you genuinely believe that , you are quite entitled to .

i believe in many conspiracy theories about propaganda myself about how the world is subject to puppet masters control , so i'm not going to criticise you , but i still don't see why Hamas is not denying the very existence .

or are they ? ( genuine question )

[Guest Bilo]

you could be right ,

as i said before , there is nothing wrong with a bit of healthy skepticism , and if you genuinely believe that , you are quite entitled to .

i believe in many conspiracy theories about propaganda myself about how the world is subject to puppet masters control , so i'm not going to criticise you , but i still don't see why Hamas is not denying the very existence .

or are they ? ( genuine question )

News Source

I'm not taking that source as infallible as it comes from an Israeli news agency, but that appears to suggest that the tunnels form a fairly large network. To be fair though, even if Hamas did deny their existence, can they really be considered a trustworthy source?

[BoneDog]

Just out of curiosity how are you so certain about what weapons they have? You seem quite ready to dismiss any reports of tunnels and the like from sources like BBC News (yet trust You Tube even though we've had proof even videos can be bollocks), what sources are you using?

I'm not certain what weapons they have. I'm just going on what weapons they have been using since I can remember, which is AK's, those crap rockets and such. Nothing decent, which surely they could get if they were travelling into Egypt and back. Sources I am using are reports by John Pilger, Fisk and such people. Pilgers book 'The New Rulers of the World' is very good. (Although it's nothing to do with this situation). PressTV is live news I watch on net.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80443&sectionid=351020202

[BoneDog]

you could be right ,

as i said before , there is nothing wrong with a bit of healthy skepticism , and if you genuinely believe that , you are quite entitled to .

i believe in many conspiracy theories about propaganda myself about how the world is subject to puppet masters control , so i'm not going to criticise you , but i still don't see why Hamas is not denying the very existence .

or are they ? ( genuine question )

I haven't got a clue why Hamas doesn't deny. Or maybe they do, who's to say BBC etc would show it? Hamas leaders are w*#kers anyway just like most other leaders out there, so I wouldn't expect anything good from them.

[BoneDog]

News Source

I'm not taking that source as infallible as it comes from an Israeli news agency, but that appears to suggest that the tunnels form a fairly large network. To be fair though, even if Hamas did deny their existence, can they really be considered a trustworthy source?

OK, I might be wrong about tunnels, I admit it. I might be right though! All I wonder is : why wouldn't they bring in decent weapons such as them things you shoot helicopters down with? (Can't remember what they called!) Or decent mortars?

[Mickyblueeyes]

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

Where did you get these quotes from?

The spelling gives me an indication that it wasnt from a unbiased source.No Muslim, especially an Arab would spell it like that, you may be aware of the reason behind it.

The fact is the good guys have killed over two-hundred kids and today when promising to adhere to a 3hr ceasefire chose to blow up 3 little girls....The IDF are real heroes! :rolleyes:

How about their military snipers firing thirteen shots at medical official wearing clear uniforms.

They're bang out of order this time.I supported them in their last conflict against Hezbollah but this time they've really over stepped the boundaries.

[Guest Bilo]

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

Where did you get these quotes from?

The spelling gives me an indication that it wasnt from a unbiased source.No Muslim, especially an Arab would spell it like that, you may be aware of the reason behind it.

The fact is the good guys have killed over two-hundred kids and today when promising to adhere to a 3hr ceasefire chose to blow up 3 little girls....The IDF are real heroes! :rolleyes:

How about their military snipers firing thirteen shots at medical official wearing clear uniforms.

They're bang out of order this time.I supported them in their last conflict against Hezbollah but this time they've really over stepped the boundaries.

Here's the link I retrieved the quotes from.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Apologies to anybody offended by the spelling, I am aware that it is an archaic way of spelling Muslim.

However, spelling apart, all other websites that carry the Charter carry the exact same message. It is not therefore bias but a copy of Hamas' message.

[Mickyblueeyes]

Here's the link I retrieved the quotes from.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Apologies to anybody offended by the spelling, I am aware that it is an archaic way of spelling Muslim.

However, spelling apart, all other websites that carry the Charter carry the exact same message. It is not therefore bias but a copy of Hamas' message.

Didnt expect it to be, just wondering cos theres so much propaganda in those parts from both sides you have to be careful in what you take to be fact and what you ignore.

[Ultra]

Here's the link I retrieved the quotes from.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Apologies to anybody offended by the spelling, I am aware that it is an archaic way of spelling Muslim.

However, spelling apart, all other websites that carry the Charter carry the exact same message. It is not therefore bias but a copy of Hamas' message.

MidEast Web is well-known as an Israeli propaganda site. Quotes from it should therefore be treated with a certain degree of caution.

[Ultra]

That comment would have a lot more credibility if you hadn't exposed your own anti-Israel bias by referring to it as an apartheid and terrorist state within this thread.

But many distinguished international commentators have indeed compared Israeli actions to those of the former apartheid regime in South Africa.

These include Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former US President Jimmy Carter, both of whom possess far greater knowledge of these matters than I could dream of, and who wouldn't use the term lightly.

As for the tag of terrorist state, I think Israel's actions during the lifetime of this thread have rather proved my point. Attacking UN facilities is as low as any state can sink..

Yes, Hamas were democratically elected, but so was the Nazi Government in 1933. Are you suggesting that any group, however abhorrent, should be treated with kid-gloves because they have a democratic mandate?

No, because that would mean unconditional support for Israel too..

There has to be an effective framework of international law to resolve border disputes. Unfortunately Israel and its sugar-daddies have prevented one from being established.

The Palestinians are now governed by a totalitarian group with refusal to negotiate peace enshrined within its charter, and are committed to continuing a war that is militarily impossible for them to win.

Substitute "Israelis" for "Palestinians" in that sentence and the point is just as applicable.

Surely the vast majority of Palestinians, who have suffered enough, deserve better than a terror group that clearly sees the deaths of hundreds of its own innocent people as no more than a means to an end and a propaganda blow against Israel.

The issue of who leads the Palestinians is ultimately for the Palestinians themselves to decide. Would we tolerate instructions, from Washington or elsewhere, in UK elections?

[Ultra]

Here's an article I found on a locally-based website.

I'd be interested to hear how the pro-Israeli contributors, who have been so forthright in their demands for a complete Hamas surrender, respond to the points that are made.

This is not about rockets

By Stuart Littlewood

Keep your eye on the ball.

What if Hamas dumped all their rockets in the sea tomorrow?

Would Gazans enjoy the same freedoms as other nations?

Would they be able to open their sea port to foreign ships and rebuild and operate their airport?

Would they be able to import and export and carry on trade and develop their economy and prosper like other countries?

Would they be allowed to exploit and develop their offshore gas field?

Would their fishermen be allowed to fish in unpolluted waters?

Would their young people be able to come and go and take up places at foreign universities?

Would Israel clear out of Gazan airspace permanently?

Would the Israeli navy cease its piracy and stay out of Palestinian territorial waters?

Would you and I be able to visit Gaza direct?

Fat chance. None of this would suit Israel. So Gazans would be no better off. Their tormented half-existence would continue.

There are NO rockets coming out of the West Bank. Yet the illegal Israeli occupation there continues and so does the ethnic cleansing, the land theft, the illegal settlements, the colonization, the demolition of Palestinian homes, the throttling of the economy, the abduction and 'administrative detention' of civilians and the massive interference with freedom of movement.

Nothing has changed for West Bank Palestinians who DO NOT fire rockets. There is no sign of an end to their misery.

The bloody assault on Gaza therefore has much more to do with Israel's ambition to expand racial dominance in the Holy Land than crude and erratic rocket-fire. Hamas and the Palestinians holed up in Gaza are simply in the way of the Grand Plan and have to be removed or totally subdued.

The international community needs to keep their eye on the ball - the big issue – which is the ending of the occupation and Israel's withdrawal to recognized pre-67 borders as required by international law. In short, they need to stop wringing their hands and start delivering justice, which is long overdue.

Palestinians in Gaza will hardly wish to give up armed resistance until they receive copper-bottomed guarantees of a normal life unmolested by Israel... and see concrete evidence of it.

[MPH]

That is not an "accurate" insight into the conflict. Anyone who wants the reality of how Palestinians get treated (and have been treated for over 60 years non stop) should watch Occupation 101 a Chomsky film. I don't support anyone but the fact is that the amount of civilians killed in past 10 years is something like a ratio of 70 Palestinias to 1 Israeli. So I know who is in the wrong in that war. Clip here:

it really bothers me that whenever someone wants a bit of sympathy for the palestinians ( including hamas) they will pull up a video of kids., some photos of kids and a stroy about how a child has been killed. What bothers me even more than that is the Hamas regime who set up grenade launchers in schools using children as a human shield.

[MPH]

Here's an article I found on a locally-based website.

I'd be interested to hear how the pro-Israeli contributors, who have been so forthright in their demands for a complete Hamas surrender, respond to the points that are made.

show me a Hamas that dont use children as human shields and then your article might get a bit of attention. that will never stop happening either.

plenty wrong on both sides. BOTH.

[Daggers]

plenty wrong on both sides. BOTH.

Yup - but it is accepted that the West Bank is an occupied land: The first duty is for Israel to withdraw.

Until they do there will never be a lasting peace.

What this situation proves, more than anything else, is the stupidity of man and the absence of a god.

[davieG]

Yup - but it is accepted that the West Bank is an occupied land: The first duty is for Israel to withdraw.

Until they do there will never be a lasting peace.

What this situation proves, more than anything else, is the stupidity of man and the absence of a god.

That, and if they really, really need to believe in a God then they should realise there's too many of them and we need to get rid of some.

[Hullfox]

That, and if they really, really need to believe in a God then they should realise there's too many of them and we need to get rid of some.

Yeah, maybe they should put fireworks on a stick, light them then leg it,

[BoneDog]

it really bothers me that whenever someone wants a bit of sympathy for the palestinians ( including hamas) they will pull up a video of kids., some photos of kids and a stroy about how a child has been killed. What bothers me even more than that is the Hamas regime who set up grenade launchers in schools using children as a human shield.

I advised people to watch the whole film which is not about kids. That clip is just one I found on youtube. Watch the whole film Occupation 101. I'm not biased, I don't prefer one people over another. I like all races of people no prejudice whatsoever. I just hate oppresors of people

[davieG]

I advised people to watch the whole film which is not about kids. That clip is just one I found on youtube. Watch the whole film Occupation 101. I'm not biased, I don't prefer one people over another. I like all races of people no prejudice whatsoever. I just hate oppresors of people

That's not the impression I get you've had almost 100% defence for everything the Palestinians do and barely, if any acceptance that anything the Israelis do is acceptable.

Or perhaps I've misread you!

[BoneDog]

Yeah, maybe they should put fireworks on a stick, light them then leg it,

If these rockets were more powerful than I keep saying they are then the evidence would be all over the news everyday. Any damage that was happening in Israel would be on the news. Instead you just get an interview with an Israeli saying how these rockets keep landing. Or a picture of a pile of old rockets. Fact is, these rockets do hardly any damage at all which is why I've said we have fireworks bigger and badder.