Israel

[Thracian]

So what are you saying? If WMD's were found you'd have no complaints about the invasion?

Don't put me in the decision-making shoes. It wasn't my call. But had WMD's been found it would have jusified Blair's reasoning. But they weren't, so it didn't.

I don't know all the circumstances so I've no idea what my thinking would have been. However, I cannot imagine taking any nation I was responsible for into any war without real justification, unambiguously explained and without a properly sanctioned mandate.

And from a distance, the excuse for attacking Iraq was inedequate to he point of being pathetic. And even were I convinced that Saddam Hussein simply had to be eliminated (by no means certain) I really cannot imagine being so crude in going about it.

Anyone who pisses and shits can be caught with his pants down. I see no reason why homes, families and neighbourhoods should have been destroyed in doing that.

[Ultra]

You keep banging on about Israel breaking international laws.....

How many instances of this do you have and has Israel ever agreed to abide by them?

Where to begin...

See this factsheet on the Geneva Convention

Israel ratified the Fourth Geneva Convention with effect from 6 July 1951.

The convention is considered to have been elevated to the status of "customary international law", which means it applies irrespective of whether a State has ratified it.

Apart from Israel, the entire international community, has unambiguously accepted the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to those territories captured and occupied by Israel in the 1967 war, which include the West Bank and Gaza.

Both the Security Council and the General Assembly have consistently issued resolutions calling on Israel to recognise the applicability of the Convention, a view that has been endorsed by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

And as far as the "security wall" (also known as the apartheid wall) in the West Bank is concerned..

On July 9, 2004, the International Court of Justice issued its opinion against the barrier, calling for it to be removed and the Arab residents to be compensated for any damage done. The Court advised that the United Nations General Assembly, which had asked for the ruling, and the Security Council should act on the issue.

The ICJ opinions were as follows :

The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated regime, are contrary to international law;

Israel is under an obligation to terminate its breaches of international law; it is under an obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall being built in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, to dismantle forthwith the structure therein situated, and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith all legislative and regulatory acts relating thereto, in accordance with paragraph 151 of this Opinion;

Israel is under an obligation to make reparation for all damage caused by the construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem;

All States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction; all States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 have in addition the obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention;

The United Nations, and especially the General Assembly and the Security Council, should consider what further action is required to bring to an end the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and the associated regime, taking due account of the present Advisory Opinion

On July 20, 2004, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution demanding that Israel obey the ICJ ruling. Needless to say, it has failed to comply.

There are plenty more examples I can quote for you if need be..

[BoneDog]

On the news I keep hearing people say that Israel are justified in their actions because of the home-made rockets that keep getting fired. But those rockets are themselves a reaction to 60 years of non-stop violence towards Palestinians. So, the rockets themselves must be justified too if you go by the same logic. And this 60 years of violence by the Israelis is not a once a year thing, it has been constant, all year round, every year. Also, these home-made rockets are piss weak. We have fireworks in England that are more powerful. If one of these rockets (which are made of old pipes and fertilizer) happen to land 5 metres from you, they will not kill you because they have no explosive power. They have to have a direct hit on a person. I think they have killed about 20 people in 10 years with those 'rockets'. But the Israeli missiles have got explosive power and will kill anyone within a 10-30 metre range (maybe more from shrapnel).

Yes, firing rockets randomly is wrong but people who say Israelis are suffering the same terror as Palestinians are either racist, lying or just don't know the truth of the situation.

All I know is that if some force came to England and forced us out of our homes into Wales, then held us prisoner for 60 years and stole our water supplies and generally messed us up, then alot of our men would be fighting back. Especially if we had lost loved ones. If anyone came here now and started blowing us up with tanks and planes you know we would fight with anything we could use. Why should anyone else react differently?

[Finnegan]

No davie, that was the Baby Squad.

/thread

[davieG]

No davie, that was the Baby Squad.

No wonder I can't have a drink in Palestine whilst watch this war take place - those hooligans have ruined it as a spectator sport. They'll be playing Chelsea Dagger every time a bomb hits next.

[The People's Hero]

That bloody Jewry Wall has a lot to answer for.

[breadandcheese]

On the news I keep hearing people say that Israel are justified in their actions because of the home-made rockets that keep getting fired. But those rockets are themselves a reaction to 60 years of non-stop violence towards Palestinians. So, the rockets themselves must be justified too if you go by the same logic. And this 60 years of violence by the Israelis is not a once a year thing, it has been constant, all year round, every year. Also, these home-made rockets are piss weak. We have fireworks in England that are more powerful. If one of these rockets (which are made of old pipes and fertilizer) happen to land 5 metres from you, they will not kill you because they have no explosive power. They have to have a direct hit on a person. I think they have killed about 20 people in 10 years with those 'rockets'. But the Israeli missiles have got explosive power and will kill anyone within a 10-30 metre range (maybe more from shrapnel).

Yes, firing rockets randomly is wrong but people who say Israelis are suffering the same terror as Palestinians are either racist, lying or just don't know the truth of the situation.

All I know is that if some force came to England and forced us out of our homes into Wales, then held us prisoner for 60 years and stole our water supplies and generally messed us up, then alot of our men would be fighting back. Especially if we had lost loved ones. If anyone came here now and started blowing us up with tanks and planes you know we would fight with anything we could use. Why should anyone else react differently?

Interesting points, but I think this sort of basis typifies the problem, focusing on events over the last 60 years. There seems to be much hurt and grievance on both side, such that any peace settlement will not placate or make up for the loss of life over the last half a century. For that reason, it is about focusing on the here and now to try and look to the future.

That seems to be the problem with the leadership on both sides, that they are too focused on the pain they have suffered, unable to make the necessary compromises, rather than looking to the future.

A case in point is the rocket firing by Hamas. The rockets are crude, inaccurate, and do not have the explosive power that would be desired (although to call them no more than a firework is obviously dramatically stretching the truth to make a point). So the question to ask is what are Hamas hoping to gain by firing the rockets? They will not liberate any land. They will not open the borders between Gaza and Israel. They will not achieve anything and will certainly not better the living conditions of the Palestinian people living in the Gaza Strip.

I don't believe desperation is a reason for firing the home-made rockets as they bring little results and a leadership should be looking to better the living conditions of its people, which is clearly not going to happen from this course of action. In that context, it is understandable why other Arab governments (Egypt have been quite short with Hamas) have had enough of Hamas and why actually, ridding Hamas from the equation may be part of the solution.

In that sense, I think the aims of the Israeli action are justified, the question in my mind is whether the conduct and current action is the best way of achieving of these aims.

[Guest]

Lisa, I feel that after reading some of your responses to posts elsewhere on this forum, the time and effort in typing would be an alarming waste of my very infrequent spare time.

I'm taking that as a compliment.

[Ultra]

Interesting points, but I think this sort of basis typifies the problem, focusing on events over the last 60 years. There seems to be much hurt and grievance on both side, such that any peace settlement will not placate or make up for the loss of life over the last half a century. For that reason, it is about focusing on the here and now to try and look to the future.

That seems to be the problem with the leadership on both sides, that they are too focused on the pain they have suffered, unable to make the necessary compromises, rather than looking to the future.

A case in point is the rocket firing by Hamas. The rockets are crude, inaccurate, and do not have the explosive power that would be desired (although to call them no more than a firework is obviously dramatically stretching the truth to make a point). So the question to ask is what are Hamas hoping to gain by firing the rockets? They will not liberate any land. They will not open the borders between Gaza and Israel. They will not achieve anything and will certainly not better the living conditions of the Palestinian people living in the Gaza Strip.

I don't believe desperation is a reason for firing the home-made rockets as they bring little results and a leadership should be looking to better the living conditions of its people, which is clearly not going to happen from this course of action. In that context, it is understandable why other Arab governments (Egypt have been quite short with Hamas) have had enough of Hamas and why actually, ridding Hamas from the equation may be part of the solution.

In that sense, I think the aims of the Israeli action are justified, the question in my mind is whether the conduct and current action is the best way of achieving of these aims.

You made some initial attempt to be even-handed about the issue. However, ultimately your pro-Israel bias forced its way to the surface.

The firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel, whether by Hamas or anybody else, does need to be stopped. But it needs to be placed in context. Israel occupied Gaza for decades and still maintains a regular land, sea and air blockade which has forced the overwhelming majority of the population into poverty and starvation. This is not only inhumane, it is illegal.

The massacres of civilians and the recent invasion of Gaza have apparently failed to stop the rocket attacks. So what is THEIR purpose, except for demonstrating Israel's possession of superior military (and largely American-supplied) firepower?

As we know, the US and the UK have shown a willingness to attack and invade what they perceive to be "rogue" states such as Afghanistan and Iraq, while constantly defending the equally destabilising activities of Israel. While many Arab governments may acquiesce in such a blatant display of double standards, their populations, enraged by footage shown on TV and the net, will not. The position of hardliners throughout from Hezbollah in Lebanon to Ahmedinajad in Iran will be strengthened as anti-Western sentiment increases.

Hamas is by some distance the strongest political force in Gaza and unlike many other regimes in the region, has a DEMOCRATIC mandate to govern, which Israel and the West cynically disregard.

Unless and until the issues which brought them to power (chiefly the ongoing grievances of the Palestinian community) are properly addressed, attempts to isolate and marginalise Hamas are doomed to fail.

[Dr The Singh]

You made some initial attempt to be even-handed about the issue. However, ultimately your pro-Israel bias forced its way to the surface.

The firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel, whether by Hamas or anybody else, does need to be stopped. But it needs to be placed in context. Israel occupied Gaza for decades and still maintains a regular land, sea and air blockade which has forced the overwhelming majority of the population into poverty and starvation. This is not only inhumane, it is illegal.

The massacres of civilians and the recent invasion of Gaza have apparently failed to stop the rocket attacks. So what is THEIR purpose, except for demonstrating Israel's possession of superior military (and largely American-supplied) firepower?

As we know, the US and the UK have shown a willingness to attack and invade what they perceive to be "rogue" states such as Afghanistan and Iraq, while constantly defending the equally destabilising activities of Israel. While many Arab governments may acquiesce in such a blatant display of double standards, their populations, enraged by footage shown on TV and the net, will not. The position of hardliners throughout from Hezbollah in Lebanon to Ahmedinajad in Iran will be strengthened as anti-Western sentiment increases.

Hamas is by some distance the strongest political force in Gaza and unlike many other regimes in the region, has a DEMOCRATIC mandate to govern, which Israel and the West cynically disregard.

Unless and until the issues which brought them to power (chiefly the ongoing grievances of the Palestinian community) are properly addressed, attempts to isolate and marginalise Hamas are doomed to fail.

Ultra, i'm not saying what Israel is doing is 100% right but Hamas are not helping there cause by trying to kill innocent civilians. If Hamas wants a war, attack it's forces, there's plenty of them sitting around the border, this is conventional warefare. Throwing bombs, supposedly hiding amongst civilains trying to kill innocent women and children is cowardly and acts of terrorism.

Purposely trying to kill civilians is wrong on all levels, Hamas are either very stupid or deranged, the laws of nature dictate that the superior force will always win and due to Israel being where it is etc, it cannot be shown to show no weakness, so what does it expect....you don't go to the Lions den and expect not to be attacked. Hamas has gained nothing from it's bombing and if it's not careful will lead to the whole destruction of palestine!!! Israel have openly stated that it will stop if Hamas stops, so why have Hamas not stopped

The palestinians need to elect a government that can work with the Israeli's and bring prosperity to it's people!! It's people need to be realistic, Israel is going nowhere, it's the superpower of the region and hence needs to concentrate on building there own nation and people!!

[Alexikokopops]

Ultra, i'm not saying what Israel is doing is 100% right but Hamas are not helping there cause by trying to kill innocent civilians. If Hamas wants a war, attack it's forces, there's plenty of them sitting around the border, this is conventional warefare. Throwing bombs, supposedly hiding amongst civilains trying to kill innocent women and children is cowardly and acts of terrorism.

Purposely trying to kill civilians is wrong on all levels, Hamas are either very stupid or deranged, the laws of nature dictate that the superior force will always win and due to Israel being where it is etc, it cannot be shown to show no weakness, so what does it expect....you don't go to the Lions den and expect not to be attacked. Hamas has gained nothing from it's bombing and if it's not careful will lead to the whole destruction of palestine!!! Israel have openly stated that it will stop if Hamas stops, so why have Hamas not stopped

The palestinians need to elect a government that can work with the Israeli's and bring prosperity to it's people!! It's people need to be realistic, Israel is going nowhere, it's the superpower of the region and hence needs to concentrate on building there own nation and people!!

Didn't Israel bomb a school run by the UN this morning full of civilians?

[Guest Bilo]

You made some initial attempt to be even-handed about the issue. However, ultimately your pro-Israel bias forced its way to the surface.

The firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel, whether by Hamas or anybody else, does need to be stopped. But it needs to be placed in context. Israel occupied Gaza for decades and still maintains a regular land, sea and air blockade which has forced the overwhelming majority of the population into poverty and starvation. This is not only inhumane, it is illegal.

The massacres of civilians and the recent invasion of Gaza have apparently failed to stop the rocket attacks. So what is THEIR purpose, except for demonstrating Israel's possession of superior military (and largely American-supplied) firepower?

As we know, the US and the UK have shown a willingness to attack and invade what they perceive to be "rogue" states such as Afghanistan and Iraq, while constantly defending the equally destabilising activities of Israel. While many Arab governments may acquiesce in such a blatant display of double standards, their populations, enraged by footage shown on TV and the net, will not. The position of hardliners throughout from Hezbollah in Lebanon to Ahmedinajad in Iran will be strengthened as anti-Western sentiment increases.

Hamas is by some distance the strongest political force in Gaza and unlike many other regimes in the region, has a DEMOCRATIC mandate to govern, which Israel and the West cynically disregard.

Unless and until the issues which brought them to power (chiefly the ongoing grievances of the Palestinian community) are properly addressed, attempts to isolate and marginalise Hamas are doomed to fail.

That comment would have a lot more credibility if you hadn't exposed your own anti-Israel bias by referring to it as an apartheid and terrorist state within this thread.

Yes, Hamas were democratically elected, but so was the Nazi Government in 1933. Are you suggesting that any group, however abhorrent, should be treated with kid-gloves because they have a democratic mandate? The Palestinians are now governed by a totalitarian group with refusal to negotiate peace enshrined within its charter, and are committed to continuing a war that is militarily impossible for them to win. Surely the vast majority of Palestinians, who have suffered enough, deserve better than a terror group that clearly sees the deaths of hundreds of its own innocent people as no more than a means to an end and a propaganda blow against Israel.

[Dr The Singh]

Didn't Israel bomb a school run by the UN this morning full of civilians?

Last night actually, like I said, I don't think Israel is 100% or 100% wrong, plus Israel claims that rockets were fired from tht location and if they knew children were there, they wouldn't have done it!! Israel claims that Hamas on purpose are taking positions and attacking from sensitive areas and then making it a publicity stunt. There's two sides to the story, unfortunately I don't know which one is true!!!

The fact is that Gaza is heavily populated, there's gonna be alot of 'colateral damage'. Hamas should heed and stop the bombing of Israeli civilians and bring a halt to the mess. Having kids of my own, I find the whole event disturbing, so many young innocent lives are being lost!!!

[Alexikokopops]

Last night actually, like I said, I don't think Israel is 100% or 100% wrong, plus Israel claims that rockets were fired from tht location and if they knew children were there, they wouldn't have done it!! Israel claims that Hamas on purpose are taking positions and attacking from sensitive areas and then making it a publicity stunt. There's two sides to the story, unfortunately I don't know which one is true!!!

The fact is that Gaza is heavily populated, there's gonna be alot of 'colateral damage'. Hamas should heed and stop the bombing of Israeli civilians and bring a halt to the mess. Having kids of my own, I find the whole event disturbing, so many young innocent lives are being lost!!!

The UN says it told Israel the locations of schoosl and the like and those they would be occupying, so Israel apparently knew it was a UN occupied school. Just read that this morning on the way to work so thought I'd throw it in there. It's all a bit gash really.

[Dr The Singh]

The UN says it told Israel the locations of schoosl and the like and those they would be occupying, so Israel apparently knew it was a UN occupied school. Just read that this morning on the way to work so thought I'd throw it in there. It's all a bit gash really.

Yes matey, all of that was mentioned in the news last night also, i'm just relaying what the Israely envoy was saying, which was that Hamas focres can and could take\occupy up any position, even schools and hospitals, and if rockets are fired from those locations, then a response will be given!!! Who is the worser evil, the occupier\rocketer or the responder???

[Alexikokopops]

Yes matey, all of that was mentioned in the news last night also, i'm just relaying what the Israely envoy was saying, which was that Hamas focres can and could take\occupy up any position, even schools and hospitals, and if rockets are fired from those locations, then a response will be given!!! Who is the worser evil, the occupier\rocketer or the responder???

Surely though if it was UN occupied there wouldn't be Hamas forces firing rockets from it? I'm not having a go at you here, just thinking out loud

[Dr The Singh]

Surely though if it was UN occupied there wouldn't be Hamas forces firing rockets from it? I'm not having a go at you here, just thinking out loud

One would think so, but in wars, anything's possible!! What would Israel gain from bombing schools also, it would only heighten the 'propaganda' war against them, which the palestinians seem to be winning!!!

[Zingari]

it looks like Hamas is upping the ante

Sir Alan 'target for extremists'

Apprentice star Sir Alan Sugar has been said to be among a list of top British Jews thought to be targeted by extremists over Israel's Gaza onslaught.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.aspx?cp-...mentid=12534666

[Jordan]

Devil's advocate for a second...

Palestinians and their supporters often criticize Israel and the West for the unfair existence or its original boundaries but I don't think they were due any favors after supporting the genocidal, fascist Nazi regime.

It's so easy to just lump all of the blame on Israel, the U.S. and the West, but nary a word about Palestinian actions... nor the complete betrayal of the people of the region by the neighboring Arab states around 1948... no mention of ridiculous acts of war by the neighboring Arab states that were doomed to failure... no criticism of suicide bombings and other acts of terror, plus the use of human shields...

Even members of the Arab League prefaced their criticisms of Israel and their call for a truce by saying that if the Palestinian people would unite and work actively for peace, this current chapter of the conflict would have never happened!

Hamas, the neighboring Arab states, and the wealthiest Arabs have exploited poverty, religion, anti-Semetism and anti-Americanism to dupe masses of Palestinians into this never-ending war. It's ironic that Hamas has made the destruction of Israel its cornerstone philosophy, yet if Israel didn't exist, it'd be necessary for these zealots to create it.

Any nation that was faced with a neighboring power--whether democratically-elected or not--calling for its destruction would be alarmed and prepared to defend itself.

I'm fed up with this disgusting conflict--and both sides of it too--but it's only fair that Hamas and the Palestinians and their allies receive their fair share of the blame and put in their fair share of the work in order to create peace (if that's what they really want). Western progressives have taken the Palestinian cause to heart, but I'm a fairly liberal fellow and I don't see a damn thing in common with my beliefs and those of Hamas. I'm no big fan of war, either, but f**k it, maybe Hamas needs to be taught a lesson.

[breadandcheese]

Ultra, my point remains unanswered.

I'm trying to put the firing of rockets by Hamas into context, by understanding the thought process. I'm trying to look at it logically and ask what the Hamas leadership were hoping to achieve on behalf of the Palestinian people by firing these rockets. All operations have an aim, whether they're suicide bombings or air strikes. So what were the aims as it would be unlikely to bring about an increase in living standards.

If the rockets fired by Hamas would force a military defeat and lead to the border being opened, then I could understand it. If the firing of rockets would in any way, shape or form change the reality on the ground, then again I could understand it. This is not going to happen, so as far as I can tell, the Hamas leadership are continuing the struggle without any benefit for its people. This is particularly galling when Gaza does have a very definite solution which could be the first step in the establishment of a new peace track.

With Israel relinquishing its claim and dismantling the settlements in Gaza, it is a question of establishing trust to allow the opening of the Egyptian-Gazan border. At a time when Hamas is smuggling rockets and firing them with what would appear to be the sole aim of continuing the resistance, this trust is impossible to build.

Admittedly, it works both ways, why should the Palestinians trust the Israelis? The difference is international pressure can be applied to Israel and have an impact.

I agree, Israeli actions can be questioned, quite readily, however, the aims of getting rid of Hamas can be justified.

With regards to whether military action can in fact stop the rockets, sadly, I think yes it can have a large impact, although only after the dust has settled. Rather tellingly, after the Lebanon War in 2006, Nasrallah said that if he knew how much destruction the Israeli retaliation would have caused, he would have not have ok-ed the hezbollah operation to attack the border. It is also telling how many rockets have been fired from Hezbollah throughout the Gaza situation. You would have expected them to open up a second front, they have not. This is not a critique on the war, nor on whether it was right or wrong, rather that unfortunately, and rather horrificly, war does alter the reality on the ground.

[Alexikokopops]

Devil's advocate for a second...

Palestinians and their supporters often criticize Israel and the West for the unfair existence or its original boundaries but I don't think they were due any favors after supporting the genocidal, fascist Nazi regime.

It's so easy to just lump all of the blame on Israel, the U.S. and the West, but nary a word about Palestinian actions... nor the complete betrayal of the people of the region by the neighboring Arab states around 1948... no mention of ridiculous acts of war by the neighboring Arab states that were doomed to failure... no criticism of suicide bombings and other acts of terror, plus the use of human shields...

Even members of the Arab League prefaced their criticisms of Israel and their call for a truce by saying that if the Palestinian people would unite and work actively for peace, this current chapter of the conflict would have never happened!

Hamas, the neighboring Arab states, and the wealthiest Arabs have exploited poverty, religion, anti-Semetism and anti-Americanism to dupe masses of Palestinians into this never-ending war. It's ironic that Hamas has made the destruction of Israel its cornerstone philosophy, yet if Israel didn't exist, it'd be necessary for these zealots to create it.

Any nation that was faced with a neighboring power--whether democratically-elected or not--calling for its destruction would be alarmed and prepared to defend itself.

I'm fed up with this disgusting conflict--and both sides of it too--but it's only fair that Hamas and the Palestinians and their allies receive their fair share of the blame and put in their fair share of the work in order to create peace (if that's what they really want). Western progressives have taken the Palestinian cause to heart, but I'm a fairly liberal fellow and I don't see a damn thing in common with my beliefs and those of Hamas. I'm no big fan of war, either, but f**k it, maybe Hamas needs to be taught a lesson.

I've found there's just as many people criticising the Palestinians as the Israelis

[marbelladave]

Just read through this thread, which of cause follows the usual form. Over the past 50 or so years both sides have behaved so badly that the supporters of both sides can find plenty of legitimate reasons so make their arguments. Depending on their political viewpoint this arguments are routinely used to 'prove' which side is the aggressor and who is at fault.

These arguments are pointless and do nothing to resolve the problems.

So, I offer three 100% guaranteed ways to solve the Israeli / Palestinian conflict, once and for all.

1) The Israelis, with the help and support of the West, simply destroy the Palestinians as a people. They do whatever is necessary to destroy any economic, political and cultural identity that the Palestinians have. No Palestinians, no problem.

2) The oil rich arab nations combine together to defeat Israel militarily. In reality they will probably pay the Russians or the Chinese to do it on their behalf. This would not be easy and would undoubtably be messy but geographically Israel is a small country, impossible to defend and they would lose. The Saudis and the other gulf states threaten to cut off the oil if the west get involved. If the threat is 'credible', they will not dare.

3) A Palestinian state. This would not only have to be 'viable' it would have to be rich enough and politically powerful enough to give the Palestinian people a comfortable and fulfilling life. Fat, happy people in control of their own destiny do not, generally, become terrorists.

Since none of these solutions are going to happen anytime soon, the reality of permanent conflict is what we shall get. Sometimes hot, sometimes cool, this conflict is going to run and run and in time cause more death and destruction.

[Guest Bilo]

Surely though if it was UN occupied there wouldn't be Hamas forces firing rockets from it? I'm not having a go at you here, just thinking out loud

Devil's advocate for a second...

Palestinians and their supporters often criticize Israel and the West for the unfair existence or its original boundaries but I don't think they were due any favors after supporting the genocidal, fascist Nazi regime.

It's so easy to just lump all of the blame on Israel, the U.S. and the West, but nary a word about Palestinian actions... nor the complete betrayal of the people of the region by the neighboring Arab states around 1948... no mention of ridiculous acts of war by the neighboring Arab states that were doomed to failure... no criticism of suicide bombings and other acts of terror, plus the use of human shields...

Even members of the Arab League prefaced their criticisms of Israel and their call for a truce by saying that if the Palestinian people would unite and work actively for peace, this current chapter of the conflict would have never happened!

Hamas, the neighboring Arab states, and the wealthiest Arabs have exploited poverty, religion, anti-Semetism and anti-Americanism to dupe masses of Palestinians into this never-ending war. It's ironic that Hamas has made the destruction of Israel its cornerstone philosophy, yet if Israel didn't exist, it'd be necessary for these zealots to create it.

Any nation that was faced with a neighboring power--whether democratically-elected or not--calling for its destruction would be alarmed and prepared to defend itself.

I'm fed up with this disgusting conflict--and both sides of it too--but it's only fair that Hamas and the Palestinians and their allies receive their fair share of the blame and put in their fair share of the work in order to create peace (if that's what they really want). Western progressives have taken the Palestinian cause to heart, but I'm a fairly liberal fellow and I don't see a damn thing in common with my beliefs and those of Hamas. I'm no big fan of war, either, but f**k it, maybe Hamas needs to be taught a lesson.

Stop coming round here making sensible points, my brain can't take it.

[Saladin]

You made some initial attempt to be even-handed about the issue. However, ultimately your pro-Israel bias forced its way to the surface.

The firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel, whether by Hamas or anybody else, does need to be stopped. But it needs to be placed in context. Israel occupied Gaza for decades and still maintains a regular land, sea and air blockade which has forced the overwhelming majority of the population into poverty and starvation. This is not only inhumane, it is illegal.

That is why Hamas started to fire rockets again; Israel did NOT raise these blockades, which have a crippling effect on the Gazan population. Also there are still many illegal settlements still in the West Bank, which Israel still has not vacated.

What Hamas is doing is wrong, but Israel is just as, if not more, worse.

[Jordan]

I've found there's just as many people criticising the Palestinians as the Israelis

sorry, wrong forum...