davieG Posted 10 October 2009 Author Posted 10 October 2009 hopefully you don't mean turning doctors into manager? i'd prefer doctors to stay as doctors, and maybe introduce some sort of medical management course, or degree, or whatever. to provide the necessary medical management knowledge The former happens in most of industry because the managers get paid more than the best 'practitioners'. So in the areas I've worked in mostly engineering you ended up with your best engineers becoming what were are often the worst managers. No organisation I was ever associated with was ever prepared to pay their manager less than their best engineers even when it was the engineer making the crucial technical decisions.
stez Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 The former happens in most of industry because the managers get paid more than the best 'practitioners'. So in the areas I've worked in mostly engineering you ended up with your best engineers becoming what were are often the worst managers. No organisation I was ever associated with was ever prepared to pay their manager less than their best engineers even when it was the engineer making the crucial technical decisions. true communism, it's the only answer
Smudge Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 The former happens in most of industry because the managers get paid more than the best 'practitioners'. So in the areas I've worked in mostly engineering you ended up with your best engineers becoming what were are often the worst managers. No organisation I was ever associated with was ever prepared to pay their manager less than their best engineers even when it was the engineer making the crucial technical decisions. "The Peter Principle": In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. So the great plumber becomes an average foreman and a poor manager. Worse yet he now hires or promotes poor people because he has no idea how to do a better job.
davieG Posted 10 October 2009 Author Posted 10 October 2009 "The Peter Principle":In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. So the great plumber becomes an average foreman and a poor manager. Worse yet he now hires or promotes poor people because he has no idea how to do a better job. ...or doesn't want to hire anyone who's better than him/her to show him/her up. Mind you I've actually been a manger of an engineering team where the software engineers were on more than me but they did have a massive holier than thou 'we never make a mistake' - well bugs in software don't count - attitude!
Phube Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 Everything in life could be done better but for it's sheer size and continual political interference is it actually any worse than a private company would manage and doing a good job?Without nit picking what could be done better? I should be paid more! In all seriousness: People should be charged for misseng appointments! About £50 per one. We have people "DNA" (Did Not Attend) all the time, some cost us ~£600 per appointment! Also people should pay for their own meal in Hospital. You would have to at home, so why not in hospital? Also stop people moaning about the food!
davieG Posted 10 October 2009 Author Posted 10 October 2009 I should be paid more! Only if you wear an Arsenal shirt to work
Phube Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 I've noticed no-one here is mentioning bad patients, wasting time, money and resources!
stez Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 I've noticed no-one here is mentioning bad patients, wasting time, money and resources! maybe because, as individuals it doesn't really impact on us (that we'd notice). sitting around for hours on end waiting for late appointments does. but i agree, maybe something like an 'appointment deposit' would be useful, that you get back. trouble is with that, not everybody has the means to pay. and i'd reckon it'd take a fair number of people to administer it through the tax/benefits system. however labour don't seem against this to keep the employment figures high.
Smudge Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 I should be paid more! In all seriousness: People should be charged for misseng appointments! About £50 per one. We have people "DNA" (Did Not Attend) all the time, some cost us ~£600 per appointment! Also people should pay for their own meal in Hospital. You would have to at home, so why not in hospital? Also stop people moaning about the food! Hard to enforce and another accounting department and collection agency. What I think works over here is that you have to pay a co-payment before seeing the doctor and is administered by the receptionists. Costs about $20 each visit and I think it makes people think twice about whether that doctors visit is really necessary.
MPH Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 The whole set up of the NHS is wrong. right down to the core. Being an NHS worker i feel qualified to make this statement. 1. Far too many managers - a complete waste of money. 2. Far too few nurses leaving nurses too stressed, they give the impression to the individual patient that they are uncaring or that the patients themselves area bother - It breaks my heart so see people feel guilty for being ill. 3. In a bit to save money they contract out the cleaning - the result being the company that pays the lowest wages effectvely is the one that provides the cleaning. Its a general rule that the quality of person who would go for a Job will be lower if the wages are lower( we have some fantastic cleaners there so it isnt everyone) I think people would be shocked if they saw some places in the hospital and how dirty it was. 4. Budget cuts. We are constantly having to cut our budget. Linked with 2, but a budget cut means we were constantly given cheaper equipment and supplies to use. The doctors are constantly complaining that the equipment we have doesn't allow them to do their Job effectively - the hospital is basically working on Tesco value standard equipment. Support departments were merged causing a delay in receiving back test results, sterilized equipment was delayed meaning procedures the doctors want to do had to been delayed. I could go on and on. In short- right now the NHS is not working and is failing the patients and despite what figures they try and spin out to reveal how wonderful they are, the budget cuts will only do one thing - damage it even more. Oh and we are expecting the biggest budget cuts we have ever had in the next couple of years - its a grim outlook. I dont have a problem with the concept of a government ran healthcare system but right now it feels like they are trying to squeeze every penny they can out of it and Excessively so. The thing that concerns me is if they cut even 50% of the managers they have and gave that money to the wards for extra nurses it still wouldnt be enough. Its really that dire right now. Someone mentioned some Hospitals are effectively being privatised. The new hospital in Walsgrave was built with private sector funding. this is the worst possible way to run a hospital for the NHS. I have a friend who works there and i was staggered at the stories she told me.. They wanted to put up 2 small pictures and were charged 400 pounds for it. 400 pounds to put up 2 pictures!!!. Not only did they have to pay the contractors to put them up they had to rent the wall space from the firm that built and ultimately owns the hospital building. It either needs to be NHS funded or privatised. Inbetween isnt working.
Phube Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 One major failing of people's misunderstanding of the NHS... THERE ARE MORE THAN DOCTORS AND NURSES WORKING IN IT!!! Just putting in more Nurses will not help!!! The non-exhaustive list: Research Fellows Nursing Assistants Occupational Health Workers Occupational Therapists Physiotherapists Radiographers Ultrasonographers Nuclear medicine Technicians Operating Department Assistants Pharmacists Pharmacy Technicians Porters Phlebotomists Mortuary Technicians Play Specialists Medical Physicists Workshop Technicians Electricians Cleaners Cooks Security Medical Secretaries Administration Assistants Clerical Staff Human Resource Staff Medical Laboratory Scientific Officers Biomedical Scientists Lab technicians Audiologists Mid-wife assistants Receptionists Respiratory Technicians Radiopharmacy Technicians Electro-diagnostic Techs Cardiac Techs IT Techs Opticians Dentisits Councillors Maintenance staff Sterile Service Techs Logistics Staff Paramedics Ambulance Drivers And there are probably more I have forgotten/don't even know about! As you can see you do need managers otherwise the whole thing would be a mess! You just need good Managers!
Bryn Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 I really ought to know more about this as a first year medical student. All I know is that whenever I've had to deal with the NHS they've been superb, goes for my family as well.
davieG Posted 10 October 2009 Author Posted 10 October 2009 I should be paid more! In all seriousness: People should be charged for misseng appointments! About £50 per one. We have people "DNA" (Did Not Attend) all the time, some cost us ~£600 per appointment! Also people should pay for their own meal in Hospital. You would have to at home, so why not in hospital? Also stop people moaning about the food! If there's so many cancellations how come whenever I go to the outpatients I always have to wait an hour or more to see the consultant who then seems like he can't wait to get rid of me? Can you explain why it costs so much, it's not as if the staff have turned up to see one person not being funny and as irritating as it must be I just can't see where the cost comes from.
MPH Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 One major failing of people's misunderstanding of the NHS... THERE ARE MORE THAN DOCTORS AND NURSES WORKING IN IT!!! Just putting in more Nurses will not help!!! The non-exhaustive list: Research Fellows Nursing Assistants Occupational Health Workers Occupational Therapists Physiotherapists Radiographers Ultrasonographers Nuclear medicine Technicians Operating Department Assistants Pharmacists Pharmacy Technicians Porters Phlebotomists Mortuary Technicians Play Specialists Medical Physicists Workshop Technicians Electricians Cleaners Cooks Security Medical Secretaries Administration Assistants Clerical Staff Human Resource Staff Medical Laboratory Scientific Officers Biomedical Scientists Lab technicians Audiologists Mid-wife assistants Receptionists Respiratory Technicians Radiopharmacy Technicians Electro-diagnostic Techs Cardiac Techs IT Techs Opticians Dentisits Councillors Maintenance staff Sterile Service Techs Logistics Staff And there are probably more I have forgotten/don't even know about! As you can see you do need managers otherwise the whole thing would be a mess! You just need good Managers! yes - all these positions are important. but , from experience of working on a ward- we definately need more nurses... we have had lots of nurses leave and because of budget cuts they have not been replaced - 5 nurses in the last year alone have left and not been replaced ( on one ward) It would be foolish of you to think more nurses are not needed. As for other departments, other than wards, i cant comment on what i don't work on. It isnt a case of not needing managers, its a case of not needing so many managers. When it comes to ordering stock items, our matron would authorize the orders. About a year ago, it was decided that authorizing stock orders had to be done by a manager and the matron for the ward was no longer allowed to. Now why is that? How can a manager know what stock items are important for a ward when they havnt even once set foot on that ward? It seems like for some managers they are trying to create work for them to justify their salary. The explanation as to why the manager needed to authorize the stock orders was to enforce budgets. Well i have an idea... instead of trying to create work for a manager, get rid of the manager and you'd be saving over 50,000 straight away! One time we ordered 8 boxes of large swabs and the order was refused and we were told we needed this needed to be reduced to 6!! they cost no more than 2.50 each box.. We ended up running out and had a real Job trying to find a ward that could lend us a couple of boxes - what a great use of staff time! and guess what? the manager could not understand at all the week after not only did we need 8 boxes of swabs we needed 2 more to pay back to the ward that were borrowed and would only authorize 8. which means after a few days we were in the same position as before. Just a complete waste of everyones time, NHS money and just entirely pointless. es the manager is useless but that still doesnt explain why they are trying to create work for the managers in ... just a waste of money.
Phube Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 If there's so many cancellations how come whenever I go to the outpatients I always have to wait an hour or more to see the consultant who then seems like he can't wait to get rid of me? Can you explain why it costs so much, it's not as if the staff have turned up to see one person not being funny and as irritating as it must be I just can't see where the cost comes from. These are not cancellations... they are people not turning up! So we wait for them, try to contact them, in the mean time we could have scanned/seen more patients. People like you who I assume turn up on time! And you try and have a rule where if you're 5 mins late your appointment is cancelled, because that wont work! Ours our so expensive because we sometimes order in very expensive radiopharmaceuticals, which have only a days expiry and invole a lot more than just turning up. When we have to scan people within 4 weeks of referral and 3 people don't bother turing up... that's 3 people who could have had the test done. A vial of one of our kits costs ~£500 (for 10 people), plus that's 3 lots of stressing agent which have to be pre-drawn up, 1.5 hours of of two highly trained Nurses sitting on their bums, 1.5 hours of a very expensive camera sitting idle, plus 1.5 hours of a scanning tech not doing what they should. And then we have to do it all again the next time they come (if they can be bothered). Also patients abusing the Ambulance service as their personal Taxi rank. And when the ambulance is late taking them back, they just get a taxi or bus! It is a service for those who can't get to Hospital, not those who don't want to pay to go! P.s. Oh add: Ambulance drivers Paramedics To my list!
vanfox12 Posted 10 October 2009 Posted 10 October 2009 The thing is in this Country while there is a clear demand for Workers in key areas with Nurses being one of them, the fact is such jobs are highly demanding and generally poorly rewarded despite what some people may have you believe and the Tories plan to freeze pay to public workers such as Nurses isn't going to improve that situation.
Scow Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 The thing is in this Country while there is a clear demand for Workers in key areas with Nurses being one of them, the fact is such jobs are highly demanding and generally poorly rewarded despite what some people may have you believe and the Tories plan to freeze pay to public workers such as Nurses isn't going to improve that situation. The Tories are only interested in themselves despite Cameron's PR.
stez Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 The thing is in this Country while there is a clear demand for Workers in key areas with Nurses being one of them, the fact is such jobs are highly demanding and generally poorly rewarded despite what some people may have you believe and the Tories plan to freeze pay to public workers such as Nurses isn't going to improve that situation. if nurses are on over 18k per year, they're not going to starve.
Jon the Hat Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 The Tories are only interested in themselves despite Cameron's PR. Yeah what would the Camerons know about the value of the NHS. It's not like they had a severely handicapped son who spent a lot of time in hopsital.
Phube Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 if nurses are on over 18k per year, they're not going to starve. The lowest a qualifies nurse would be paid is £20,170 per year. And let us not forget that unless you've been in post for approx. 8 years every NHS worker gets an increment EVERY year. So the only nurses who won't get a pay rise under the Tory scheme will be on: £26,839; £33,436; £39,237 depending on their grade! Not so hard done to!
l444ry Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 A lepoard doesn't change its spots. Labour/Liberals need to expose the brass necked hypocrites that are the Tory Party and their lickspittle supporters.
Webbo Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 A lepoard doesn't change its spots. Labour/Liberals need to expose the brass necked hypocrites that are the Tory Party and their lickspittle supporters. It's on youtube so it must be true.
l444ry Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 It's on youtube so it must be true. Hello Webbo. I'd have thought that even a die hard Tory like you should know that the facts therein are irrefutable, youtube or not!!
Webbo Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 Hello Webbo.I'd have thought that even a die hard Tory like you should know that the facts therein are irrefutable, youtube or not!! Tbh I didn't even bother to look at it. I just assumed it was 1 of your ususal 'Gordon Brown is an ecconomic genius and a living saint, David Cameron rapes kittens' type nonsense.
AoWW Posted 11 October 2009 Posted 11 October 2009 You'd think with what the NHS charge people for parking they'd be rolling in money. My Grandad was recently in hospital for less than a week and he's since had 4 follow-up outpatients visits. (My Mum has to take him as he's not mobile enough to get himself there or use public transport). We've estimated that between Mum and myself we've spent over £70 in paying for parking. I can't begin to imagine how people who have relations or friends in there on a longer-term basis can even afford to visit them. Also the public transport links are so poor they're only really a feasible option if you live in the same town. Interestingly though, bus services to and from the hospital finish early in the evening - often before ward-opening!
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