Euro 2012

[purpleronnie]

Yep that pretty much sums it up.

[Lillehamring]

It's rather annoying that Drillo keeps having success with his style of football But well done to Norway. They haven't tasted success in a long time now, and there's always that sweet sense of Schadenfreude when a bunch of arrogant tossers like the Portuguese lose

Still would've taken a draw. We're either going to witness a Portuguese backlash in the next game, or a distinctly average and toothless Danish side will expose the surprisingly horrible Portuguese defence again (still can't get over that 4-4 against Cyprus )

well, if it's any comfort, there's a story in VG today, an island player who plays in denmark, says denmark are the best team in the group.

the football is becoming less and less drillo-esque with Moa and Huseklepp in the side, BH Riise had a great game last night controlling the play and playing some nice footy - but they are crying out for a midfielder like Mo Fellah, but its not so bad, they were insanely solid in the middle - can't wait for the games against the danes, toying with the idea of coming down for it...

[Finnegan]

The FAW is to make an announcement about Toshack's successor in due course with former Wales defenders Kenny Jackett and Chris Coleman among the bookies' favourites.

Kill me.

[lildave3]

Kill me.

Paper keeps saying Ryan Giggs is taking over on a part time basis

[dandannieldanok]

No-one of any real standard is going to want the job; it's becoming symptomatic of most international jobs now. Welsh expectations are too high, the result against Montenegro was hardly a surprise and not in anyway comparable to the humiliation of Scotland on Tuesday. Toshack should have stayed for at least two more games.

[Samilktray]

Just applied for the Wales job.

[Tommeh]

Gary Speed would have been the man for Wales had he not just landed the Blades job.

Would really like to see another home nation qualify for a major tournament, especially Scotland for big Craig.

[Finnegan]

Welsh expectations are too high

No they aren't.

the result against Montenegro was hardly a surprise

Surprise? No. An upset? Yes.

and not in anyway comparable to the humiliation of Scotland on Tuesday.

Well obviously, that was Lichtenstein?

I can't work out whether you're simply trying to troll these days or whether you're actually just getting more and more clueless. You always seem to have your facts roughly grounded in reality whenever we talk about rugby, I generally enjoy talking with you and Sparky when it comes to the Six Nations every year.

But you seem to know absolutely fuck all about Welsh football. Which is fair enough, I don't expect any of you to be experts (or even care,) but when you're blatantly as clueless as you are - do you and I a great, big favour and help us stay on civil terms by just keeping your job shut if you don't know what you're on about.

If you are just trolling and I spectacularly just took the bait then fair play to you, you yanked my chain this time.

[Finnegan]

Just applied for the Wales job.

Best of luck to you mate. An attacking 4 3 2 1, please.

[Guest DavidJCW]

Disaster... Belgium lost against Turkey 3-2 in a must win or at least draw game. Was a very good game though, end to end, fast paced and FAR more interesting than any England game I've seen for a long time... the same can be said of their 1-0 loss to Germany last week too!

Qualification will be a really tough ask now, but hopefully if they do Turkey in Brussels and win all their easier games, there might be something left to fight for!

[dandannieldanok]

No they aren't.

Ok well tell me what you as a Welsh fan was expecting from that Montenegro game and the campaign overall? Wales is a small country with only 2 clubs at a decent level, neither of which have that many Welsh players. Going into this campaign there has been very little momentum results-wise (in competitive games), and the manager's hands are tied because he has a small pool of players to pick from.

Surprise? No. An upset? Yes.

Not an upset by any stretch of the imagination, thinking it is an upset ties in with my belief that Welsh expectations are too high. Did you not see the bookies odds before the game? Montenegro were odd-ons. I'm shocking at predicting results but I even managed to predict this one. Wales also lost a friendly in Podgorica not too long ago, I'd love to know you're thinking behind the result being an upset.

I can't work out whether you're simply trying to troll these days or whether you're actually just getting more and more clueless. You always seem to have your facts roughly grounded in reality whenever we talk about rugby, I generally enjoy talking with you and Sparky when it comes to the Six Nations every year.

But you seem to know absolutely fuck all about Welsh football. Which is fair enough, I don't expect any of you to be experts (or even care,) but when you're blatantly as clueless as you are - do you and I a great, big favour and help us stay on civil terms by just keeping your job shut if you don't know what you're on about.

If you are just trolling and I spectacularly just took the bait then fair play to you, you yanked my chain this time.

Trolling? The only two main points of my post I've just explained above ^^. You're going on as though I've created some huge dossier as to why Wales are crap when all I've done is written two measly lines, calm down. I haven't made any comment about Welsh football that isn't factual. Wales is a small country with only 2 decent teams, and to expect any more than you're getting is having higher expectation than you probably should, what's factually wrong with that?

[Finnegan]

Firstly, drop the two decent teams nonsense from the off. For better or worse, domestically we are an extension of England and the English league and everyone knows that. Most of our lads don't even come through at Welsh clubs and an increasing amount were born the 'wrong' side of the border. Our talent pool is much bigger than Cardiff (a city whose population, by the way, the entire country of Montenegro is less than twice the size of) and Swansea.

As for expectations, most of us don't expect anything more than a showing we can be proud of. We'd like to compete for 2nd (or 3rd if the Swiss turn out to be as professional as we think they probably are) in this group and improve on our shit WC quals - defeat to sides like Finland was absolutely embarrassing, we looked completely poor. Performances were tactically naive and people just weren't playing with the commitment and desire we were used to from Hughes' Wales.

As for Montenegro, last time we went we took a poor squad for a nonsense friendly and even then it was called an upset when we lost. Do I really have to match up our squads for the umpteenth time? There's no real point, you'll just happen to forget to respond again. As I have pointed out, they have two good players (one of whom is injured) then a squad of nobodies matched up against a Wales side that, for the first time in years, has a wealth of Premiership talent and experience. Their second best player on the night was winger Simon Vukcevic of the Portugese league (that's the SPL with 'exotic' Latin names) and who in their right mind would swap him for Bale or Bellamy, two players who could probably get into the current England squad on recent form?

We aren't world beaters but at the same time people like you really need to get this myth of our team being full of League One and League Two nobodies out of your heads because that's the one thing Toshack (or, more accurately, Flynn) has done for Welsh football. These days there are teams we should be beating when squads are considered and Montenegro (plus, probably, Bulgaria) are on the list. This isn't just my biased opinion, it's common fucking sense and if you can't see that you're either simple or you haven't looked into this enough.

[Edit: Couldn't bring myself to look at that wall of text and not edit it - was responding on my phone earlier.

[dandannieldanok]

Firstly, drop the two decent teams nonsense from the off. For better or worse, domestically we are an extension of England and the English league and everyone knows that. Most of our lads don't even come through at Welsh clubs and an increasing amount were born the 'wrong' side of the border. Our talent pool is much bigger than Cardiff (a city whose population, by the way, the entire country of Montenegro is less than twice the size of) and Swansea.

As for expectations, most of us don't expect anything more than a showing we can be proud of. We'd like to compete for 2nd (or 3rd if the Swiss turn out to be as professional as we think they probably are) in this group and improve on our shit WC quals - defeat to sides like Finland was absolutely embarrassing, we looked completely poor. Performances were tactically naive and people just weren't playing with the commitment and desire we were used to from Hughes' Wales.

As for Montenegro, last time we went we took a poor squad for a nonsense friendly and even then it was called an upset when we lost. Do I really have to match up our squads for the umpteenth time? There's no real point, you'll just happen to forget to respond again. As I have pointed out, they have two good players (one of whom is injured) then a squad of nobodies matched up against a Wales side that, for the first time in years, has a wealth of Premiership talent and experience. Their second best player on the night was winger Simon Vukcevic of the Portugese league (that's the SPL with 'exotic' Latin names) and who in their right mind would swap him for Bale or Bellamy, two players who could probably get into the current England squad on recent form?

We aren't world beaters but at the same time people like you really need to get this myth of our team being full of League One and League Two nobodies out of your heads because that's the one thing Toshack (or, more accurately, Flynn) has done for Welsh football. These days there are teams we should be beating when squads are considered and Montenegro (plus, probably, Bulgaria) are on the list. This isn't just my biased opinion, it's common fucking sense and if you can't see that you're either simple or you haven't looked into this enough.

[Edit: Couldn't bring myself to look at that wall of text and not edit it - was responding on my phone earlier.

Ok I agree my comment about 2 decent teams is naive, but you're talent pool is still pretty small, Wales is sparsely populated apart from the south coast.

True, from what I've seen Wales haven't matched the desire and commitment as Hughes' Wales, but Hughes had better players so you can't really expect too much similar results-wise (which you are because you've said you believe you can challenge for 2nd or 3rd).

Absolutely cannot agree with the comment; Wales team which "has a wealth of Premiership talent and experience". Have a closer look at the team sheet for the Montenegro game. Only James Collins (who I don't particularly rate), Craig Bellamy and Gareth Bale are established premier league players. The rest of the premier league players in the Wales team rarely play for their clubs and aren't of much talent. For the record I don't rate Montenegro as highly as you think I do, but I'd certainly have their 11 over Wales' simply because they look more able to pinch results at this level. No matter how crap you think they are, they're the ones sitting with 6 points from 6 and not 0 from 3. Can you honestly say you believe this Wales side has the guts and spine to grind out a 1-0 in Bulgaria like Montenegro did?

[Finnegan]

Before I start, I'd just like to apologize to everyone who is not dandaniel and who does not give a flying fuck about me, Wales or Welsh football because the following may be a fairly long post. Not interested? Just don't read it.

Ok I agree my comment about 2 decent teams is naive, but you're talent pool is still pretty small, Wales is sparsely populated apart from the south coast.

Three million people live in Wales. Less live in Slovenia and Latvia (recent qualifiers for major tournaments) and comparative amounts live in Croatia, Norway, Denmark and Ireland (all recent qualifiers) and that's only using Europe as a basis for argument - not that we should really exclusively be looking at qualified teams given that, as I've stated, that's hardly what the Welsh public are demanding from their football team.

Moreover it's also a very narrow minded way of looking at things given (as I've said, and you've completely overlooked) the vast array of "Welsh" talent that's been in our squad for decades (and is ever prevalent these days) that wasn't actually born in the Land of our Fathers.

True, from what I've seen Wales haven't matched the desire and commitment as Hughes' Wales

Just out of interest, just so I know where I stand at this point, how many of our games of the Hughes and Toshack eras have you actually watched? Can I assume you're basing most of your assumptions on results you've seen and the occasional "big" game on Sky?

Hughes had better players

Did he? Here's a match report from our win against Italy in Cardiff (one of the best games I've ever been to, club or country) Let's have a quick look at who'd get in the current Wales starting line up (assuming maximum availability and the players of Hughes' squad being the ages they were whilst in Hughes' squad.)

Goalkeeper: Well, there you go for a start - Paul Jones has no hope. Terribly inconsistent, a reasonable shot stopper but no better. I'd take both Boaz Myhill and Wayne Hennessey over Jones, despite some of Hennessey's more nervy performances in the last nine months.

Defenders: A serious weakness in Hughes' team. Ageing Gary Speed and Andy Melville both playing out of position at full back and centre back respectively coupled with Mark Delaney, long past his best.

We really, seriously do miss Danny Gabbidon being fit so Mark Hughes' team gets a point there, but James Collins was always the less error prone of the two once he established himself and you'd have to be daft to take Melville ahead of the brilliant, emerging Ashley Williams. The back four is the big weakness of Toshack's reign but Hughes had "experienced" names playing criminally out of position and way beyond their best, we looked crap at the back then, too.

We're short of full backs now but while I'd have taken Delaney at his best over Ricketts, a thirty year old Delaney? Probably not - and I'd definitely have Gunter at full back over a tired Gary Speed.

Conclusion: Tough call, you certainly got more solid consistency from the old boys but I'd probably take the current side. Assuming complete fitness then you'd have Rickets, Gabbidon, Collins and Gunter and I don't think that's all too shabby. Three starting Premiership players and a promising, attacking youngster.

Midfield: Aaron Ramsey, Aaron Ramsey, Aaron Ramsey. He is that good. Hughes' most creative central threat was Robbie bloody Savage for Lord's sakes. West Ham starter Jack Collison or another over-the-hill old head in Pembridge? No brainer. We do miss Ryan Giggs. I wouldn't claim to pick Bale over Giggs purely to aid my point, however, anyone thinking Bale on his current form is any kind of weak link would be an absolute idiot.

And that's missing out the likes of Joe Ledley and two regular Premiership performers (albeit one of which players for Blackpool) in Vaughan (who, to his credit, was one of our best performers against Montenegro) and David Edwards, one of our most promising and improved players in the last twelve months.

Conclusion: We miss Simon Davies and Ryan Giggs but having Bellers on one side and Bale on the other (both of whom I would actually take over Davies, even in his prime) I'd say we're just as imposing now as we were then. In central midfield it's a no brainer, Hughes had practically nothing in his arsenal whilst Toshack has one of our best midfield generations in decades. Ramsey could genuinely be world class if he recovers. I'd take Toshack's lot but an honourable mention to Giggs.

Forwards: I was calling for John Hartson's retirement years before it came but I suppose I do regret that in hindsight. We've never found a replacement for him, big Sam Vokes just isn't as mean and I thought Morrison looked rather average against Montenegro. We're definitely shy of goals now but then so was Hughes' side. Bellamy represents both generations though is a much improved player now. At least these days we have some choices in Earnshaw, Evans, Eastwood and Church as well as the aforementioned - most of whom should improve long before they start to decline.

Conclusion: Neither had a vast array of great options at their disposal, it's an area we've always lacked a little in resulting in Giggs frequently playing out of position up top for both managers. I'd probably take Toshack's options now over Hughes', though I do emphasize that - as said - we really never have replaced John Hartson.

So there you have it. I've bored everyone to tears if they're still reading but I trust I've made my point, Daniel. I really don't see where you can possibly argue - unless you're going to genuinely start singing the praises of Melville and Pembridge?

so you can't really expect too much similar results-wise (which you are because you've said you believe you can challenge for 2nd or 3rd).

The only reason we didn't win that group is because we bottled our last games against Finland and (ironically) Serbia and Montenegro after being hammered in MIlan. It was ours for the taking. I would not call finishing third behind England and Switzerland in a group that includes Bulgaria and Montenegro to be "similar."

Absolutely cannot agree with the comment; Wales team which "has a wealth of Premiership talent and experience". Have a closer look at the team sheet for the Montenegro game. Only James Collins (who I don't particularly rate), Craig Bellamy and Gareth Bale are established premier league players. The rest of the premier league players in the Wales team rarely play for their clubs and aren't of much talent.

Sam Ricketts was a regular for Hull and is now a regular for Bolton in the Premiership, Wayne Hennessey started Wolves' premiership term as first choice (though, admittedly, has swapped around a lot with Hanneman in 2010), David Edwards is a first team regular for Wolves, David Vaughan has obviously only been up there this season though I think he's played in all of Blackpools games so far, Bellamy, Collins and Bale speak for themselves (as you highlighted.) That's seven out of eleven playing regular, top flight football in what's apparently the best league in the world.

Shall we look at the Montenegrin side?

That's an eight-cap goalkeeper playing in the Hungarian league, defenders playing in Israel and for a Russian side, Nalchik, you've never heard of.

A midfield from DC United, a 9th placed side in the Croatian league called Rijeka (no? Me neither), a side from the Swiss league called Luzren (again, no idea, apparently they were in Europa League qualifying and lost 4 - 1 to Utrecht) and Furth in the German second division.

I'd certainly have their 11 over Wales'

Go on then. Again, assuming perfect fitness for both teams (as is only fair) tell me who you'd put into the Wales side. Jovetic and Vucinic? Yeah alright. Then what?

Yes, they look more likely to "grind out results" at the moment but isn't that the entire point of my frustrations? That Wales, despite the sum of our parts, look terrible? Which is exactly down to the manager and exactly why he's gone and basically exactly everything I've been trying to say for the last SIX YEARS. We have no steel, no fight, no grit - unless we happen to be playing bigger sides like Germany or Russia when all of a sudden we're a team of complete heroes.

Can you honestly say you believe this Wales side has the guts and spine to grind out a 1-0 in Bulgaria like Montenegro did?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/league_of_wales/6954235.stm

Like that?

[shen]

Ok I agree my comment about 2 decent teams is naive, but you're talent pool is still pretty small, Wales is sparsely populated apart from the south coast.

True, from what I've seen Wales haven't matched the desire and commitment as Hughes' Wales, but Hughes had better players so you can't really expect too much similar results-wise (which you are because you've said you believe you can challenge for 2nd or 3rd).

Absolutely cannot agree with the comment; Wales team which "has a wealth of Premiership talent and experience". Have a closer look at the team sheet for the Montenegro game. Only James Collins (who I don't particularly rate), Craig Bellamy and Gareth Bale are established premier league players. The rest of the premier league players in the Wales team rarely play for their clubs and aren't of much talent. For the record I don't rate Montenegro as highly as you think I do, but I'd certainly have their 11 over Wales' simply because they look more able to pinch results at this level. No matter how crap you think they are, they're the ones sitting with 6 points from 6 and not 0 from 3. Can you honestly say you believe this Wales side has the guts and spine to grind out a 1-0 in Bulgaria like Montenegro did?

Sure. The difference between those three sides isn't great by any means. And if Northern Ireland can get results with an arguably worse squad and talent pool, then surely it's something different that's been hindering Wales.

[Finnegan]

Sure. The difference between those three sides isn't great by any means. And if Northern Ireland can get results with an arguably worse squad and talent pool, then surely it's something different that's been hindering Wales.

Exactly.

Like I say, I've been saying it for six years. Northern Ireland are crap, Scotland are crap - they're still turning out more exciting qualifying campaigns than we are. Why? They've found managers to wind them the hell up and get them motivated.

We've got Toshack who's about as motivating as an undertaker.

[dandannieldanok]

Three million people live in Wales. Less live in Slovenia and Latvia (recent qualifiers for major tournaments) and comparative amounts live in Croatia, Norway, Denmark and Ireland (all recent qualifiers) and that's only using Europe as a basis for argument - not that we should really exclusively be looking at qualified teams given that, as I've stated, that's hardly what the Welsh public are demanding from their football team.

Moreover it's also a very narrow minded way of looking at things given (as I've said, and you've completely overlooked) the vast array of "Welsh" talent that's been in our squad for decades (and is ever prevalent these days) that wasn't actually born in the Land of our Fathers.

Fair points, I can't particularly argue with that.

Looking particularly at our qualification group though, the standing of the nations in it and with realistic expectations to tie in with them, would surely leave Wales scrapping (and eventually prevailing to get 4th) with Montenegro at the bottom. Surely anymore is being pretty optimistic and would require consistent over-performance? England, Switzerland, and Bulgaria each have bigger populations and more footballing pedigree because of it.

By the way, I get the feeling you think I'm revelling in this, but I genuinely am not, I'd like to see Wales do well, and on a non-footballing basis, I've visited the country for small holidays lots and lots of time, I like the place and the people.

Just out of interest, just so I know where I stand at this point, how many of our games of the Hughes and Toshack eras have you actually watched? Can I assume you're basing most of your assumptions on results you've seen and the occasional "big" game on Sky?

Actually more the opposite of that, watched most of the perceived smaller games, usually away from home, when the BBC had the rights to them. I've watched more games under Toshack than Hughes by a distance.

Did he? Here's a match report from our win against Italy in Cardiff (one of the best games I've ever been to, club or country) Let's have a quick look at who'd get in the current Wales starting line up (assuming maximum availability and the players of Hughes' squad being the ages they were whilst in Hughes' squad.)

Goalkeeper: Well, there you go for a start - Paul Jones has no hope. Terribly inconsistent, a reasonable shot stopper but no better. I'd take both Boaz Myhill and Wayne Hennessey over Jones, despite some of Hennessey's more nervy performances in the last nine months.

Defenders: A serious weakness in Hughes' team. Ageing Gary Speed and Andy Melville both playing out of position at full back and centre back respectively coupled with Mark Delaney, long past his best.

We really, seriously do miss Danny Gabbidon being fit so Mark Hughes' team gets a point there, but James Collins was always the less error prone of the two once he established himself and you'd have to be daft to take Melville ahead of the brilliant, emerging Ashley Williams. The back four is the big weakness of Toshack's reign but Hughes had "experienced" names playing criminally out of position and way beyond their best, we looked crap at the back then, too.

We're short of full backs now but while I'd have taken Delaney at his best over Ricketts, a thirty year old Delaney? Probably not - and I'd definitely have Gunter at full back over a tired Gary Speed.

Conclusion: Tough call, you certainly got more solid consistency from the old boys but I'd probably take the current side. Assuming complete fitness then you'd have Rickets, Gabbidon, Collins and Gunter and I don't think that's all too shabby. Three starting Premiership players and a promising, attacking youngster.

Midfield: Aaron Ramsey, Aaron Ramsey, Aaron Ramsey. He is that good. Hughes' most creative central threat was Robbie bloody Savage for Lord's sakes. West Ham starter Jack Collison or another over-the-hill old head in Pembridge? No brainer. We do miss Ryan Giggs. I wouldn't claim to pick Bale over Giggs purely to aid my point, however, anyone thinking Bale on his current form is any kind of weak link would be an absolute idiot.

And that's missing out the likes of Joe Ledley and two regular Premiership performers (albeit one of which players for Blackpool) in Vaughan (who, to his credit, was one of our best performers against Montenegro) and David Edwards, one of our most promising and improved players in the last twelve months.

Conclusion: We miss Simon Davies and Ryan Giggs but having Bellers on one side and Bale on the other (both of whom I would actually take over Davies, even in his prime) I'd say we're just as imposing now as we were then. In central midfield it's a no brainer, Hughes had practically nothing in his arsenal whilst Toshack has one of our best midfield generations in decades. Ramsey could genuinely be world class if he recovers. I'd take Toshack's lot but an honourable mention to Giggs.

Forwards: I was calling for John Hartson's retirement years before it came but I suppose I do regret that in hindsight. We've never found a replacement for him, big Sam Vokes just isn't as mean and I thought Morrison looked rather average against Montenegro. We're definitely shy of goals now but then so was Hughes' side. Bellamy represents both generations though is a much improved player now. At least these days we have some choices in Earnshaw, Evans, Eastwood and Church as well as the aforementioned - most of whom should improve long before they start to decline.

Conclusion: Neither had a vast array of great options at their disposal, it's an area we've always lacked a little in resulting in Giggs frequently playing out of position up top for both managers. I'd probably take Toshack's options now over Hughes', though I do emphasize that - as said - we really never have replaced John Hartson.

So there you have it. I've bored everyone to tears if they're still reading but I trust I've made my point, Daniel. I really don't see where you can possibly argue - unless you're going to genuinely start singing the praises of Melville and Pembridge?

The only reason we didn't win that group is because we bottled our last games against Finland and (ironically) Serbia and Montenegro after being hammered in Rome. It was ours for the taking. I would not call finishing third behind England and Switzerland in a group that includes Bulgaria and Montenegro to be "similar."

I shouldn't have really gotten into the discussion of Mark Hughes' team because I know just a drop in the ocean of what you know. On paper granted, Hughes' mainstays don't seem particularly great but the players he did pick and play were all far far more experienced in football than Toshack's selections. Experience counts for a lot. Yes Hughes did have some journeyman's in there as you've pointed out, but I really do think you're over-egging the talents Wales currently have. Apart from the excellent Bellamy, Bale and Ramsey (when fit), I don't think many international sides would be duly concerned at facing the likes of Vaughan, Edwards, Morrison..... Not saying I'm right, but it's my opinion of the players in the current squad.

Sam Ricketts was a regular for Hull and is now a regular for Bolton in the Premiership, Wayne Hennessey started Wolves' premiership term has first choice (though, admittedly, has swapped around a lot with Hanneman in 2010), David Edwards is a first team regular for Wolves, David Vaughan has obviously only been up there this season though I think he's played in all of Blackpools games so far, Bellamy, Collins and Bale speak for themselves (as you highlighted.) That's seven out of eleven playing regular, top flight football in what's apparently the best league in the world.

Shall we look at the Montenegrin side?

That's an eight-cap goalkeeper playing in the Hungarian league, defenders playing in Israel and for a Russian side, Nalchik, you've never heard of.

A midfield from DC United, a 9th placed side in the Croatian league called Rijeka (no? Me neither), a side from the Swiss league called Luzren (again, no idea, apparently they were in Europa League qualifying and lost 4 - 1 to Utrecht) and Furth in the German second division.

Go on then. Again, assuming perfect fitness for both teams (as is only fair) tell me who you'd put into the Wales side. Jovetic and Vucinic? Yeah alright. Then what?

Yes, they look more likely to "grind out results" at the moment but isn't that the entire point of my frustrations? That Wales, despite the sum of our parts, look terrible? Which is exactly down to the manager and exactly why he's gone and basically exactly everything I've been trying to say for the last SIX YEARS. We have no steel, no fight, no grit - unless we happen to be playing bigger sides like Germany or Russia when all of a sudden we're a team of complete heroes.

We'll never agree here because you rate the players in Wales' squad higher than I do. I can't be bothered to say what combinations of Montenegro and Wales players I'd have because it's not reality, you've got to look at the two sides completely separately. I do take you're point that the grinding out results thing is the entire point of your frustrations, but once again me and you will never agree on how highly we rate the sum of Wales' parts. I can understand the frustration at Toshack and Wales' perpetual listlessness under him, but I think the problems are deeper than him. I cannot see a big turnaround in fortunes with a new manager, but once again this all boils down to our difference in how we rate the quality in Wales' squad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/league_of_wales/6954235.stm

Like that?

Bulgaria probably treated that as a meaningless friendly as you told me Wales did in their first visit to Podgorica. Let's wait until the proper competitive fixture, but I stand my conviction that I'd be more confident taking a Montenegro 11 to Bulgaria than a Wales 11 (at the present).

The crux of the argument (it appears to me), is our differing opinions of how good Wales' current squad is. We seem poles apart here so we're never going to agree. Obviously it's advisable if anyone wants an opinion on Wales football they'll rightly come to you, but I'm pretty set in what I think of Wales national football team at present. The acid test will be when a new manager comes in. If he's given time and results pick up then your opinion is going to be pretty much spot on, if Wales in 4 years time are still in the same boat then my opinion is pretty solid.

[Finnegan]

I can do the same with Bulgaria as I've just done with Montenegro. They're one of those sides that we massively over-rate because we don't know much about them besides a few star celebrities. Petrov and Bojinov are decent, Berbatov's retired in a sulk and besides that you're genuinely struggling for names you've heard of unless you're Cardiff Fox or Manwell Pablo.

And not because the British public are generally ignorant about European football but because they're playing in Moldova, Romania, China, Japan, Bulgaria and the Russian first division. They may be resilient and organized but these are things you pick up from your coaches and your manager, things that we have lacked.

I don't over-estimate Welsh players and I think it would be unfair to imprint on me a tag of being ridiculously biased. Some of you who perhaps take my rantings about Rob Earnshaw or Jason Koumas overly seriously might believe I see the world through dragon tinted specs or with a Thracian-esque delusion but anyone (and I know they'd be in the minority!) who has actually being paying attention will testify to my having been one of Welsh football's harshest critics over the last few years. We've been terrible and I've been happy to lambast the side and Toshack for some utterly dour showings.

What I am though is well studied and well watched. When you've been busy forgetting we were even on the telly, I've been spending anything up to eight hours a day on trains to get to Cardiff (often on my own) to watch dull and unimportant fixtures against San Marino and Azerbaijan in front of twenty odd thousand fellow Welshman in the bitter cold. Why? Because this is my passion. It's not that I'm drastically over-valueing these players it's just that, to be arrogant about it, I know what I'm talking about.

The bottom line is the talent is there. Some of it is raw, some of it is inexperienced but it is there. It just needs the right leadership and the right direction. It needs the fans to come back to give it some impetus, some enthusiasm, it needs Wales to be switched back on to the right code of football.

It needs a good manager.

[Joe.]

I do think experience at international level is fairly undervalued, and right now the Welsh side don't appear to have too many old heads in the side. Of the players that actually go above the age of 25 in the squad, few have Premier League experience at a reasonable level, let alone on the international stage.

Don't get me wrong, I think Wales have a lot to get excited about with the current batch of youth making their way through right now, but as you say, without the right leadership they're going to struggle. Give it time and it will work eventually.

But let's be honest, there is little to get excited about on the attacking front. Bellamy is an absolutely cracking player, but he can't do it alone. Steve Morison, Sam Vokes, Robert Earnshaw, Ched Evans and Simon Church are all Championship quality, it's as simple as that. There are few easy games on the international stage these days, even those against the so-called minnows who park the bus, and sometimes without that cutting edge it's difficult to break them down.

At the end of the day, it was a piece of quality from Vucinic that proved decisive, and that's where the difference lay.

[Lillehamring]

Exactly.

Like I say, I've been saying it for six years. Northern Ireland are crap, Scotland are crap - they're still turning out more exciting qualifying campaigns than we are. Why? They've found managers to wind them the hell up and get them motivated.

We've got Toshack who's about as motivating as an undertaker.

ah, and this is where you and Daniel finally kind of agree - the feeling i got from what he said was that, whilst wales maybe better on paper and track record, the montenegro wasn't a shock or so unlikely because of the way they are actually managing to play.

and i think identifying the manager is spot on, and the best example of that right now is norway - only Hangeland & Gamst are first choice prem players, carew hasn't really featured for villa or norway, other than that only the Riises (and BH doesn't start very often) & Moa play outside of Norway (he moved to hanover last month) - but drillo has turned these mainly domestically based players into a formidable outfit.

[CosbehFox]

I agree with Finners on this one. Wales should be more competitive and they possess a squad with a lot of talent. It's quite clear there's an issue with Toshack when you have fourteen players pull out of a friendly.

Wales as a footballing nation might not have the weight to have a good side but their current batch are more than good enough to challenge for a playoff. Northern Ireland manage better with less top level players.

[shen]

ah, and this is where you and Daniel finally kind of agree - the feeling i got from what he said was that, whilst wales maybe better on paper and track record, the montenegro wasn't a shock or so unlikely because of the way they are actually managing to play.

and i think identifying the manager is spot on, and the best example of that right now is norway - only Hangeland & Gamst are first choice prem players, carew hasn't really featured for villa or norway, other than that only the Riises (and BH doesn't start very often) & Moa play outside of Norway (he moved to hanover last month) - but drillo has turned these mainly domestically based players into a formidable outfit.

Daniel clearly says the raw talent at Wales' disposal is only good enough to realistically challenge for 3rd or 4th spot. I think that's a very harsh view on the Wales squad!

[Narborough_fox]

Anyone watching Czech Republic - Scotland game?

[The Doctor]

Anyone watching Czech Republic - Scotland game?

what channel's it on?

edit: Nevermind, live on bbc website. sat watching it now

[dandannieldanok]

Anyone watching Czech Republic - Scotland game?

I was going to, until I saw how Levein had set up his team. Joke of a manager. And also......dropping Kenny Miller! !

Hope the Czechs win it.