Osama Bin Laden Dead!

[BoneDog]

My religion is fact, something that none of you have so far been able to present.

I've not seen you present any facts on this subject. I've seen you trot out some words from official story documents and all that, but I'm not sure you could call them facts.

Here's a quick fact........The US Air Force were under orders not to do their usual jobs regarding the intercepting of planes that have been off course for more than 60 seconds.

So, why did the US Air Force intercept around 60 other planes that year before September, but on the day that four planes were supposedly hijacked and a massive attack on US soil was committed they were ordered to stand down? They let three of the planes on 911 travel freely over US airspace for over an hour. On any other day they are up there pretty much instantly.

And the official excuses for this don't wash I'm afraid.

[marko]

I've not seen you present any facts on this subject. I've seen you trot out some words from official story documents and all that, but I'm not sure you could call them facts.

Here's a quick fact........The US Air Force were under orders not to do their usual jobs regarding the intercepting of planes that have been off course for more than 60 seconds.

So, why did the US Air Force intercept around 60 other planes that year before September, but on the day that four planes were supposedly hijacked and a massive attack on US soil was committed they were ordered to stand down? They let three of the planes on 911 travel freely over US airspace for over an hour. On any other day they are up there pretty much instantly.

And the official excuses for this don't wash I'm afraid.

Here's a FACT for you about interceptions - In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

[Stadt]

careful zubi , they'll be throwing you in the FT looney bin with Empty and me

Well the looney bin FT'ers happen to be my favourite

...........And Finners of course and his extensive Fm knowledge

[marko]

And another FACT for good measure - On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked—the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

[l444ry]

that' s ok i can live with that ,

that video just regurgitated the nist explanation that even they had to admit was "low probability of occurrence"

look it up for yourself in the nist report , they really don't believe it themselves , just like the "pancake theory" that you still seem to believe in

I don't believe in the "pancake theory". That the building "pan-caked" is blatantIy obvious, which is what the video maker was asserting. I put the video up mainly for it's content regarding demolition noise.

[Zingari]

Here's a FACT for you about interceptions - In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

sorry , but this is a classic example of how misinformation works , notice the wording? only one civilian plane ?

which of the 911 planes were supposed to have been civilian ? what about the other planes that norad had intercepted in that time period ?

they intercepted 67 others

NORAD scrambled jets 67 times from September 2000 to June 2001

http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap

[BoneDog]

Well you thought wrong. One was 15 seconds the other was around 17.

Care to explain how the laws of controlled demolition were broken?

I'm sure that the wtc dot nist dot gov website says that WTC1 came down in 11 seconds and that WTC2 came down in 9 seconds.

Here's a video that says 10 seconds.

Google Video

The 'laws of controlled demolition' weren't broken. You only have to look at the videos of the buildiings falling to see that.

[Zingari]

I don't believe in the "pancake theory". That the building "pan-caked" is blatantIy obvious, which is what the video maker was asserting. I put the video up mainly for it's content regarding demolition noise.

so you only believe half the debunking video ?

selective debunking could make you look like a bufoon

only joking , it's not my intention to make out i know what's going on , i just believe the conspiracy theorists do make some very interesting points

all the best l444ry , i admire you as an ft poster and i value your input

[Guest ttfn]

If 9/11 was a massive conspiracy, how come nobody who was in on it has blurted yet? I mean, there must have been tens of thousands in on it. Surely someone must have a guilty conscience?

[marko]

sorry , but this is a classic example of how misinformation works , notice the wording? only one civilian plane ?

which of the 911 planes were supposed to have been civilian ? what about the other planes that norad had intercepted in that time period ?

they intercepted 67 others

NORAD scrambled jets 67 times from September 2000 to June 2001

http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap

They were civilian pal. A passenger jet is a civilian plane.

Your little google video obviously has an issue with timing.

[Zingari]

They were civilian pal. A passenger jet is a civilian plane.

Your little google video obviously has an issue with timing.

sorry my bad , i thought it was "private" yes you are right and i admit i'm wrong

[marko]

sorry my bad , i thought it was "private" yes you are right and i admit i'm wrong

So it is you who is misinformed

Anyways, be my guest and have another go at explaining it. Second time's a charm

[Zingari]

So it is you who is misinformed

yes , very often in my life

we all probably believe what we want to believe , if it fits our world view .

i can only reiterate that i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything about the events of 911 , but just try to keep an open mind

all the best marko

[marko]

yes , very often in my life

we all probably believe what we want to believe , if it fits our world view .

i can only reiterate that i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything about the events of 911 , but just try to keep an open mind

all the best marko

Indeed

It was a pleasure crossing swords with you

[Zingari]

Indeed

It was a pleasure crossing swords with you

can we all agree,that whilst we may disagree , it's been quite an interesting little debate , with only the odd very minor insult

and praise to the mighty god of tinterweb that we can still express ourselves freely

unless of course the men in black suits come calling later

[marko]

can we all agree,that whilst we may disagree , it's been quite an interesting little debate , with only the odd very minor insult

and praise to the mighty god of tinterweb that we can still express ourselves freely

unless of course the men in black suits come calling later

Definitely, it's a debate I was having with a friend last week and we're still arguing the toss now.

they're on there way now and you're top of the list

[The People's Hero]

I don't buy that there is a conspiracy, but I just don't understand how the towers which were built to withstand a jet impact neatly collapsed in the manner of a controlled explosion driven demolition with much of the collapse spent in freefall. Maybe it was just a perfect combination of factors - but it does get you thinking. Either way its something for people far more intelligent and less alcohol addled than me to deal with.

[BoneDog]

I notice that you haven't also posted one of those for the even greater leaps of faith required to also believe in the other extreme (that the 9/11 attacks where planned by the American government).

You should also question your own beliefs if your going to question someone elses.

Point taken I understand why some people would find it hard to believe that the government would lie about, or be involved in something like this.

I sometimes wish that I did believe the official story. It's bad enough to think or know that there are terrorists such as Bin Laden out there, but when you believe that some of our leaders in the west are involved in the whole business it's a hundred times more worrying!!

[Zingari]

Definitely, it's a debate I was having with a friend last week and we're still arguing the toss now.

they're on there way now and you're top of the list

nah , they always let the loonies go free , it helps to discredit the ones who really know their stuff

[BoneDog]

I don't buy that there is a conspiracy, but I just don't understand how the towers which were built to withstand a jet impact neatly collapsed in the manner of a controlled explosion driven demolition with much of the collapse spent in freefall. Maybe it was just a perfect combination of factors - but it does get you thinking. Either way its something for people far more intelligent and less alcohol addled than me to deal with.

If it only happened to one building I would say that this would be a slight possibility. But when it's three buildings, all damaged in different areas and in different ways, all collapsing in the exact same way, alarm bells have to go off !!

[Zingari]

I don't buy that there is a conspiracy, but I just don't understand how the towers which were built to withstand a jet impact neatly collapsed in the manner of a controlled explosion driven demolition with much of the collapse spent in freefall. Maybe it was just a perfect combination of factors - but it does get you thinking. Either way its something for people far more intelligent and less alcohol addled than me to deal with.

i believe you are a insurance expert or something , is that true ?

i was thinking about this very thing the other day .

why would an insurance company pay out huge amounts of money on a building collapse if that building was supposed to have been built to withstand multiple airplane attacks and fire damage ?

surely in an insurance policy if you state that something is built to withstand a certain occurrence ( such as airplane strike and fire ) an insurance company would be inclined to refuse paying out saying that the building was supposed to withstand such an eventuality

i hope i'm making sense as i've just finished off a couple of special brews

[zubi]

careful zubi , they'll be throwing you in the FT looney bin with Empty and me

I'll gladly take that

They need people like us, if we didn't exist where would the controversy be

[Jackirius]

Really interesting read this topic and a good argument put well across from each side.

I've read all the pages relating to the 9/11 conspiracy and my opinion is that the act of terror itself wasn't set up by the US government but i do believe that there is something, quite big, which they aren't telling. Things don't seem to add up, especially the hastiness in which they cleared the site, surely the biggest crime scene in decades would have been preserved and analysed a tad more...? The falling of the towers i believe must have been bought down, ever since i first saw them come down i though to myself, how did it fall that perfectly and that quickly, surely if the steel is burning then certain sections would come off at a time and would not fall perfectly.

Anyway, good debate, interesting topic and i'm hopeful we will find out the truth soon.

[ajthefox]

Can I just say that the whole "It was designed to withstand a plane crash" thing doesn't really hold much of an argument, not one that you can base your argument on anyway.

For starters, you don't even know if that they're telling the truth when they said that, why they would lie about is is questionable -reassurance?- but there's plenty of conspiracy theories where you could quite easily ask the same thing.

More importantly, there is a difference between designing something to withstand a certain force and it actually doing so in a case so extreme as this.

[Steven]

http://www.awolonline.net/forum/index.php/topic,527.0.html

Conspiracy Theory Nutters - Why Can't They Be Normal Like Us?

« on: Tuesday, 03 May, 2011, 08:25:28 PM »

Here we are living in a world of complete propaganda madness where small minded morons get behind the media sausage factory and ridicule those who have the intelligence to step out the box, research and question whats really happening in the world. These hypnotized morons really do believe everything they are told and anyone questioning the authoritative word of mainstream media must be labelled as kooks and loons, or even worse… “conspiracy theorists”.

From the mind of a normal western citizen?..

How dare they have the nerve to draw different conclusions from the fairy tale stories we the masses have to swallow and digest without question? Why can’t these conspiracy theorists people just be normal like everyone else and accept what our government tells us like all decent normal citizens do? After all, we are the good guys, our western governments are the good guys, we only go to war and kill millions of men woman and children for democracy, freedom and humanitarian reasons. It’s these bad Muslims and Al Qaeda terrorists that make us have to do it. We are the good guys. We only destroy countries, kill and displace millions in Iraq, use depleted uranium creating radiation pollution in the area for thousands of years resulting in horrific birth defects for thousands of generations to come because they make us do it. Yes we use cluster bombs and horrific burning phosphorus on civilians, but only because they make us do it. OK Saddam might not have had WMD’s but he was a bad guy so why should we care? We are the good guys and we got him. Iraq is much better off now because they had an election that was fair. Why can’t these loony conspiracy theorists see that?

So what if the CIA and NATO have brought the Afghanistan poppy cultivation back to record levels after the Taliban had all but eradicated the crops. So what if our soldiers openly fly the drugs out to all quarters of the world using CIA planes? If we didn’t do it others would and why let the terrorists gets in on a multi billion dollar business? We are the good guys. As the CIA explain, we need to keep the farmers on our side and we represent freedom and democracy right?

Why do these sad “conspiracy theorists” think it’s so bad to fly unmanned drones into Pakistan and Libya taking out whole villages with 21st century precision? Splat Splat Splat! Ha ha! Would they rather we risk our soldier’s lives? OK village woman and children are slaughtered in the melee but they are dark skinned people probably harbouring terrorists anyway so they get what they deserve right? It is war after all! Well not really war, more “humanitarian missions”, because we are the good guys right? The terrorists made us have to slaughter and maim their people and besides, our governments tell us they take every precaution to spare ordinary peoples lives and our governments are the good guys so we have to believe them, and anyway, there will always be casualties in war or even humanitarian missions, won’t there. Why can’t these namby pamby conspiracy theorists realize we are fighting to create a world for peace and democracy? We are the good guys. The Muslims attacked us on 9/11 and now they have to pay right?

Just like Osama Bin Laden had to pay. It looks like the dirty Pakistanis were hiding him so I think we’ll need to step up the war against Pakistan too. We can’t have countries harbouring terrorists now can we? We might need to nuke them of course because Pakistan has nukes but they will have deserved it right? Our hero soldiers got right in there and killed everyone in the house where he was hiding. OBL even hid behind his wife as our soldiers shot him the coward! Of course the conspiracy theorists ask why we had to kill everyone in the house. Wouldn’t his wife make an excellent torture prisoner? We had to kill them all, why would we want to keep any of them alive? We have enough intelligence already, having found out all we need to know about terrorism with the excellent torture prisons we have spread out across the world. Why can’t the conspiracy theorists see that good guys need to torture the bad guys so we can stop them spreading more terrorism. Torture is good to maintain a western world of freedom and democracy! If that means locking people up in dingy cells for years without trial so be it! Freedom is worth fighting for! We have to torture them because we are the good guys and our government always tells the truth and these scummy terrorists will lie unless we torture them right? Of course our western politicians lie a little but not when it comes to big things like war and invading countries right? Our politicians would never lie to us in order to send our soldiers to war would they? Why do we know this? Because our politicians are decent and are the good guys representing love, peace and freedom. Why do these kooky conspiracy theorists think anything different? Perhaps the loony conspiracy theorists should be tortured along with the Muslim terrorists, after all, these people are aiding terrorists and deserve to be tortured and ostracised as well right?

Oh and they want PROOF our brave soldiers killed OBL! Why can’t they just believe like normal people? Why would our governments want to lie? We are the good guys! Of course we had to get rid of the body. We already had taken DNA tests to prove it was OBL. Why would they lie? There is no reason to lie, is there?

So what if MI6 and the CIA are found to be masquerading as Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq and Afghanistan? So what if we are helping Al Qaeda in Libya. Unlike the loony conspiracy theorists, us ordinary people know we shouldn’t question those in authority and what our soldiers do. We have to trust our governments because there is a war going on and our guys represent peace, freedom and democracy while the Arabs are smelly and think if they blow people up they will go to heaven with 72 virgins. Ha Ha! That’s the type of evil our brave soldiers have to deal with every day so we can’t really question their methods can we? We need to trust they are fighting for us, for peace and for democracy. After all, we are the good guys…

It gets so tiresome! These conspiracy theory loonies think the Federal Reserve is run by private bankers! What a laugh eh? Next they’ll be saying our Royal Family are lizards. Nut jobs the lot of them eh? Don’t they realize what a brilliant job these bankers are doing saving our economies? Yet the loony conspiracy theorists question their integrity. So what if they print off trillions of dollars every month out of thin air. It means us in the west will have more money to play with. Sure we had a recession but we’re in a recovery now! They just don’t get it do they? They ask us to read articles that would take at least an hour to read and make no sense at all to us or long boring videos just to prove their point. We don’t need to read their stupid articles or watch these loony documentaries or visit their conspiracy theory websites. We are not lunatics like them. Can’t these guys just watch Bloomberg and CNBC like normal people? They try to make out they know something we don’t know but they don’t realize we don’t need to read their articles from loony conspiracy theory websites or stupid documentaries. How many times are they going to ask us to watch the WTC7 collapsing? We know there were airplanes crashed into these buildings but next they will be telling us no plane flew into WTC7 as if they are expert construction engineers and know better than our governments. Just because the BBC reported the WTC7 collapsing 20 minutes before it did doesn’t mean we should be suspicious. The BBC already explained to us that was just a coincidence in the confusion of the day. Why should these conspiracy theorists not just accept that and move on instead of asking to question 9/11 further? Look our governments were able to name all 19 hijacker's within hours of the attacks. Why do we need to question it further? It’s a disgrace and shows contempt for the victim’s families so it does! Yes there were many strange things happened that day that is unexplainable, but coincidences happen all the time and we’ll never find out for sure so we have to move on and fight the terrorists that did it right?

And we get these same conspiracy theorist kooks telling us we should audit the Federal Reserve once again showing their loony distrust of these respectable bankers.

If it’s not asking for a new inquiry into 9/11 they talk about things like putting fluoride in the public water system! Ha Ha! They say the Nazis were first to use fluoride in the Jewish ghettos and apparently it was used in the Russian gulags. They say it’s the equivalent of rat poison, dumbs people down and makes them docile but they forget … we’ve been drinking fluoride for many years and it hasn’t done us any harm. Has it?