Religion!

[Dr The Singh]

The whole "Atheism is just another religion" thing is so tired by now surely and gets brought up far to often. It really isn't anything like a religion. We are not claiming anything or saying anything and we certainly do not carry the burden of proof. All we are saying is that we do not believe religious people's claims. We choose to believe what can be observed and tested and if new evidence comes around we will happily CHANGE OUR MINDS. I hate writing in capitals but that is a very important point. A scientific viewpoint is so far from fundamental. We believe the big bang theory bacause the evidence for it is all around us and it is the best explanation we have so far of how this ol' universe started. However, if a new, better, more robust theory was put forward we would shift our viewpoint. We have no fixed ideas or complete thruths but we believe what the evidence tells us. And you say there are religions which beleive in evolution, etc but there never used to be. They have only started to say that because science has opened our eyes. If the bible (and I am sticking with the bible but any other religious book could be cited here) truly were the word of God then surely it should be infallible? It should be the most amazing book ever written. It should have no inconsistences and certainly shouldn't have to back track and change it's mind because man has suddenly figured something out. Oooooh, I love a bit of this. X

I don't believe so, my point is Athiest in there beliefs(RELIGION), LABEL all religions under one banner and see religion from a very 'abhramiac' perception. Athiest like many religions go around putting pre disposed labels on those that come from a variety or range of beliefs and bark on about evolution etc, infact there are religions that support evolution eg Sikhism (500 years old)

You say 'All we are saying is that we do not believe religious people's claims', fine, nobodies forcing you to believe, so what's the problem, go on with your business and let the religious go on about there's???

What you say about observation and science is fine and I agree, but remember mankind is still a relatively new species, and science has yet to have all the answers, remember evolution is still a theory, big bang is a theory, and just cus someone has a different theory, it doesn't mean they should be slandered as long as they are not trying to make it fact. I'm sure those that said the earth was flat had some observations or evidence to support there cause. If someone wants to believe in the universe created in 7 days, so be it, I don't believe it's true but they can believe what they like aslong as they don't force me to believe it. Again, not all religions or religious text are represented like the bible or the quran which go into physical existance, eg Sikhism, the religious text is about spirituality, our life force and it;s relationship with the eternal force or higher conciousness. It doesn't tell us how to shit, impose laws and state this is what god wants.

Sikhism's holy book isn't the word of god, nor does it state it is. To summarise, Sikh translates to 'learner' or to learn, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our guide our teacher, written by 10 masters (Guru's). The book is about our life force (soul per say) and it's relationship with the superior concious, and hopefully guide our souls to attain a higher level of conciousness and bind to the eternal force (god). Hence Sikhs have adopted a plural thought, as in mankind is one, the concept of self sacrifice for the good of mankind (Saint Soldier) concept, service to the community, open doors in our temples to all including athiest, Sikh temples have a 'open kitchen' where anybody from any race will get a free meal, and no there is conversion tactics or need to pay homage or listen to 'prayers' etc.

Personally I couldn't give to shits if anyone believed Sikhism a load of balony, but I don't particularly like that fact that Sikhism, should be lumbered or blanketised with other religions. Any belief is personal, we live on society ful of different cultures, different perspectives and a world of tolereance, hence I find it strange why anybody or people keep bringin up religion, and believe me, I have my personal feelings on alot of religions and could write for hours slandering them, but I could do that with cultures aswell, we could do that with nations, race etc etc, but why bother, live and let live, unless those religions, cultures are going around making threads on foxestalk which are balony.....and to be honest it's as much annoying as Athiest starting up threads slandering religions!!!!

[somebum]

Sikhism's holy book isn't the word of god, nor does it state it is. To summarise, Sikh translates to 'learner' or to learn, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our guide our teacher, written by 10 masters (Guru's). The book is about our life force (soul per say) and it's relationship with the superior concious, and hopefully guide our souls to attain a higher level of conciousness and bind to the eternal force (god). Hence Sikhs have adopted a plural thought, as in mankind is one, the concept of self sacrifice for the good of mankind (Saint Soldier) concept, service to the community, open doors in our temples to all including athiest, Sikh temples have a 'open kitchen' where anybody from any race will get a free meal, and no there is conversion tactics or need to pay homage or listen to 'prayers' etc.

Sounds like complete shit to me, but like you said, you couldn't care less what people think about it.

[Dr The Singh]

Sounds like complete shit to me, but like you said, you couldn't care less what people think about it.

[Saxondale]

In my atheist opinion - the only reason religion really still persists is fear.

For many people (and understandably), the idea of life being finite and without purpose is very scary.

Religion and science are not compatible.

[Dr The Singh]

In my atheist opinion - the only reason religion really still persists is fear.

For many people (and understandably), the idea of life being finite and without purpose is very scary.

Religion and science are not compatible.

IMO, religion still exist, because mankind does not yet have all the answers, biggest unknown, what happens after death..............I suppose some religions give alot of comfort for the fear of that unknown

[Houdini Logic]

For many people (and understandably), the idea of life being finite and without purpose is very scary.

But once you've accepted and embraced that fact, the world becomes a very fun place

[Saxondale]

IMO, religion still exist, because mankind does not yet have all the answers, biggest unknown, what happens after death..............I suppose some religions give alot of comfort for the fear of that unknown

Exactly. I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing.

If it provides people comfort, direction in life and a sensible moral code, then it can't be bad.

The danger is when it all goes wrong - ie. fundamentalism.

I'm personally comfortable with the idea that we're born, we live, we die.

[RumbleFox]

I don't believe so, my point is Athiest in there beliefs(RELIGION), LABEL all religions under one banner and see religion from a very 'abhramiac' perception. Athiest like many religions go around putting pre disposed labels on those that come from a variety or range of beliefs and bark on about evolution etc, infact there are religions that support evolution eg Sikhism (500 years old)

You say 'All we are saying is that we do not believe religious people's claims', fine, nobodies forcing you to believe, so what's the problem, go on with your business and let the religious go on about there's???

What you say about observation and science is fine and I agree, but remember mankind is still a relatively new species, and science has yet to have all the answers, remember evolution is still a theory, big bang is a theory, and just cus someone has a different theory, it doesn't mean they should be slandered as long as they are not trying to make it fact. I'm sure those that said the earth was flat had some observations or evidence to support there cause. If someone wants to believe in the universe created in 7 days, so be it, I don't believe it's true but they can believe what they like aslong as they don't force me to believe it. Again, not all religions or religious text are represented like the bible or the quran which go into physical existance, eg Sikhism, the religious text is about spirituality, our life force and it;s relationship with the eternal force or higher conciousness. It doesn't tell us how to shit, impose laws and state this is what god wants.

Sikhism's holy book isn't the word of god, nor does it state it is. To summarise, Sikh translates to 'learner' or to learn, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our guide our teacher, written by 10 masters (Guru's). The book is about our life force (soul per say) and it's relationship with the superior concious, and hopefully guide our souls to attain a higher level of conciousness and bind to the eternal force (god). Hence Sikhs have adopted a plural thought, as in mankind is one, the concept of self sacrifice for the good of mankind (Saint Soldier) concept, service to the community, open doors in our temples to all including athiest, Sikh temples have a 'open kitchen' where anybody from any race will get a free meal, and no there is conversion tactics or need to pay homage or listen to 'prayers' etc.

Personally I couldn't give to shits if anyone believed Sikhism a load of balony, but I don't particularly like that fact that Sikhism, should be lumbered or blanketised with other religions. Any belief is personal, we live on society ful of different cultures, different perspectives and a world of tolereance, hence I find it strange why anybody or people keep bringin up religion, and believe me, I have my personal feelings on alot of religions and could write for hours slandering them, but I could do that with cultures aswell, we could do that with nations, race etc etc, but why bother, live and let live, unless those religions, cultures are going around making threads on foxestalk which are balony.....and to be honest it's as much annoying as Athiest starting up threads slandering religions!!!!

Just to begin, my initial post asked WHY people believe as I cannot understand it and I stated that I did not want any religion bashing. On your other points, some are very valid but on others you have completely missed the point. Firstly, yes I talk mainly about Christianity but that is because that is the religion I know most about. And of course I understand that all religions cannot be grouped together but the point of this thread initially was to ask if anyone could explain to me WHY I SHOULD BELIEVE? You can talk about the good things that religion may or may not do for hours but that has absolutely no relevance to it's validity. You say no one is forcing me to believe and I should just go about my business but you have missed the point again. I AM NOT MAKING ANY CLAIMS. I am simply responding to the claims of others and saying "I don't believe that". You can't just say "I believe in a religion, I would like, though I will not force it, for others to believe and I will live my life according to this religion and people should be respectful of it" and then moan if someone goes "Hang on a minute, er, like, you know, I don't believe in that, could you like, you know, explain to me WHY I should believe a fairy story 'n' that?". I AM CLAIMING NOTHING, religion is asserting everything and all I have done is say I can't understand why you believe.

[Dr The Singh]

Just to begin, my initial post asked WHY people believe as I cannot understand it and I stated that I did not want any religion bashing. On your other points, some are very valid but on others you have completely missed the point. Firstly, yes I talk mainly about Christianity but that is because that is the religion I know most about. And of course I understand that all religions cannot be grouped together but the point of this thread initially was to ask if anyone could explain to me WHY I SHOULD BELIEVE? You can talk about the good things that religion may or may not do for hours but that has absolutely no relevance to it's validity. You say no one is forcing me to believe and I should just go about my business but you have missed the point again. I AM NOT MAKING ANY CLAIMS. I am simply responding to the claims of others and saying "I don't believe that". You can't just say "I believe in a religion, I would like, though I will not force it, for others to believe and I will live my life according to this religion and people should be respectful of it" and then moan if someone goes "Hang on a minute, er, like, you know, I don't believe in that, could you like, you know, explain to me WHY I should believe a fairy story 'n' that?". I AM CLAIMING NOTHING, religion is asserting everything and all I have done is say I can't understand why you believe.

If there are poeple that moan about those that do not believe in there faith, then they are bigots. But I will only comment on myself and my kin and I do not know why anybody would moan, as stated many religions have no issues with other believers or non believers, and asking that question is no biggy, we live in free world. I dunno the people you do, but someone said to me 'I don't believe it, and WHY should I beleive a fairy tale' , my answer would be 'you don't have to believe it, it's your personal choice, and it's my choice to believe what ever I want'....no harm, no malice, it's personal choice!! WHich I stated before. If your asking me to proove the 'fairy tales', then that's a very different question, luckily Sikhism is well documented and there's ample proof of the statements in the Sri Guru Granh Sahib and the 10 masters biographies. The question that cannot be proven is that 'proove that there is a god'....that is i'm afraid 'Faith'.

I don't understand, which religion and what is asserting on your life. For me, it doesn't matter what religion you are or not as it's personal thing.

You ask WHY I SHOULD BELIEVE, as I stated, i'm not here to convert to coerse, your mature and sensible enough to answer that question yourself, whether you believe or not, that's your decision. If the question is WHY DO YOU BELIEVE, then that is a personal question, and without buying me 10 beers, i'm not gonna answer it!!

APologies if I come accross abit crass, I didn't reply to your initial post, I replied to your post which just clumped all religions together on certain ideals, to make a statement that all religions do not come under the banner, which I re-iterated in my last post.

You made other statements that were related to 'abrahamiac faiths', and I just gave an example how other faiths can differ. You state the religion is asserting everything, and again clumping all of em together......there are choices, and many religions do not assert anything, and I do not understand where you got that from

I thought honestly my point was clear, it wasn't intended to answer your first post just to give you an insight that the world is very differing, and it's ignorant to tar\label with the same brush!!

[Master Fox]

Someone get Singh a beer.

[Dr The Singh]

Someone get Singh a beer.

SIngha Beer!!!

[Saxondale]

But once you've accepted and embraced that fact, the world becomes a very fun place

Bang on!

[Reynard Bleu]

As The Dr Singh most eloquently and objectively explains, faith and religion are personal things. You have them or you don't. Its when faith and religion are hijacked and politicised by people for their own ends that the real problems occur. Those that hold their faith dear are no more and no less than those who refute any belief at all. There is room for all us, you just have to judge people by their actions not their faith, beliefs or religion (or lack of).

[Rincewind]

I can live without religion. Well at least the sort that forces their views on others. It's the all powerful all knowing being that gets me.

I read a good blog the other day. Richard Dawkins has been snubbed at a lot of places while giving lectures. Some communities are not even prepared to argue their case. One place put an empty chair on a stage where he was due to attend but had to cancel through threats. One blogger said he should do likewise. Put an invitation out to God to attend one of his talks and place a chair on the stage.

Over 90% of the American Government are Christians. Religion is an every day occurance. There have been posters put on roadsides with words like 'You dont need God to be a good person' And the ones responsible have receive threats off 'believers'

Where is the tolerance in that. There are alternatives. Moral codes were about before the preachers decided to pass it around. The commandments are just a set of rules origianly designed to stop people killing and fornicating all the time. But the principle of a moral code was around thousands of years before. People made up the codes as they progressed in their knowledge. Stories were told to village children by the elders about ancesters who did the right thing and the children were told that they should follow the same path.

Then the preachers came along and the ancestors were elevated to super human status. The ones that spread the word became immortal themselves in some cases.

So a few million year later all this has grown. Deep down Man is decent enough but many have the need to be told this and how to live their life and if they are good what reward will they receive.. Like others have said it's the fearing the inevitable that brings on the belief of life after death. If we all accepted the fact we are here for a fraction of the Earths existance maybe we could see other people purely as fellow human beings instead of rivals for believing something different.

This ws meant to be a short piece leaving the rest to add to my blog. Did a little bit early this morning. Still waiting for the cries of 'Burn in hell you Heathen'

[RumbleFox]

I cannot think of a way in which atheism could be hijacked to make people do evil things. I do not believe in any religions but there are no laws of ateism, no commandments. I am sorry if I have sounded too vehement in my critique of religion it just gets my hgoat a little. I genuinely believe that without it the world would be a better place. Of course you wold still get people doing horrible things but I don't think there is another tool which makes good people do evil things which is as strong as religion (no, not all religions I know). Just wanted a nice healthy debate which I belive is what is happening here and I like it.

Love Rumble. X

[Rincewind]

There is the Secular Society and Humanists. They are not religious but still do a lot of good and have a moral code. Yet as soon as someone says they do not believe they are regarded as evil. This is made worse by some religious spokespersons of communities not allowing the non-religious to have an equal voice and scaremongering their congregation.

[Len Finsbury]

Atheism is old hat.

Bring on the irreligious.

[Rincewind]

[Webbo]

I cannot think of a way in which atheism could be hijacked to make people do evil things. I do not believe in any religions but there are no laws of ateism, no commandments. I am sorry if I have sounded too vehement in my critique of religion it just gets my hgoat a little. I genuinely believe that without it the world would be a better place. Of course you wold still get people doing horrible things but I don't think there is another tool which makes good people do evil things which is as strong as religion (no, not all religions I know). Just wanted a nice healthy debate which I belive is what is happening here and I like it.

Love Rumble. X

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all atheists.

[Houdini Logic]

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all atheists.

Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Charles Manson, Pol Pot, all vegetaians.

The point being?

[Webbo]

Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Charles Manson, Pol Pot, all vegetaians.

The point being?

The clue was in the first line.

I cannot think of a way in which atheism could be hijacked to make people do evil things.

[Zingari]

Atheism can't be used to make anyone do anything either good or bad

With or without religion you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.

Brutal atheists ( including Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot,) wouldn't have been greatly influenced by their lack of faith in a god or gods in the same way their lack of faith in unicorns wasn't a major influence.

[Houdini Logic]

The clue was in the first line.

Surely you realise that there is a difference between someone who does something in the name of religion and someone who does something and happens to be also be an atheist. They may have also been vegetarian, gay, left handed...

None of these people did what they did in the name of atheism, and that is the (very important) difference

[The Guvnor]

Can all you believers please be united in prayer that we don't get Dowie as our next manager!

[Webbo]

Surely you realise that there is a difference between someone who does something in the name of religion and someone who does something and happens to be also be an atheist. They may have also been vegetarian, gay, left handed...

None of these people did what they did in the name of atheism, and that is the (very important) difference

They imposed their beliefs on people by force, part of their belief was atheism.They oppressed religion and the religious. How can that not be in the name of atheism?