Todays strikes.

[Guest MattP]

Striking to not have drastically less is not the same as striking to have more.

At the end of the day it's pretty obvious what's going on, the government has spent billions it doesn't have bailing out banks that shot themselves in the foot. Under the threat of further recession it's desperately looking for further cuts and public sector pensions make a tidy starting point because, admittedly, it is a fairly strong package.

So you threaten enormous cuts, you start a propaganda attack on the public sector, you convince the country that these selfish civil servants are a drain to us all and you attack their conditions of work.

Oh, but, yknow, a year or so down the line you then start to wonder why we've not got enough nurses and teachers and fuck knows what else all over again.

Unfortunately the banks needed bailing out, none of us liked it but it was neccessary at the time. You couldnt just let the country fall into a situation like Greece.

I have a major problem when people are clearly onto a good deal and they still want to protest, have a look at the pensions they are offered. Look at what that would actually cost to buy in the private sector. You are talking about £500,000 for a 30 year old moving into it now, on my brief workings I calculate what they pay in (this is using a secondary school teachers pension) that would pay in something around 50-55% of that, who on earth do you expect to cover the rest of this? I would love to but I;ve got my own to pay for first and I have to pay mine in full unfortunately as the Labour party doesnt want to hold my hand.

Not enough Teachers? Or do you mean not enough teachers, teaching assistants, career advisors, youth development officers and progress developers? Not hard to see where the money is going, just open up the jobs section in the Guardian under a Labour administration.

What you see as a acceptable number of public servants in a population of 60million?

[leicsmac]

Unfortunately the banks needed bailing out, none of us liked it but it was neccessary at the time. You couldnt just let the country fall into a situation like Greece.

I have a major problem when people are clearly onto a good deal and they still want to protest, have a look at the pensions they are offered. Look at what that would actually cost to buy in the private sector. You are talking about £500,000 for a 30 year old moving into it now, on my brief workings I calculate what they pay in (this is using a secondary school teachers pension) that would pay in something around 50-55% of that, who on earth do you expect to cover the rest of this? I would love to but I;ve got my own to pay for first and I have to pay mine in full unfortunately as the Labour party doesnt want to hold my hand.

Not enough Teachers? Or do you mean not enough teachers, teaching assistants, career advisors, youth development officers and progress developers? Not hard to see where the money is going, just open up the jobs section in the Guardian under a Labour administration.

What you see as a acceptable number of public servants in a population of 60million?

Agree with you, but I'll make the point again: if there are cuts in the public sector and unemployment is the result (which it will be), the private sector must be both able and willing to pick up the slack by hiring more staff. Bigger private sector = more wealth creation = less public spending required on benefits and public sector wages = all round win. At the moment, they don't seem to be either able or willing - there are precious few private sector jobs going and those that do advertise all have about 1000 applicants for each one. Why is there not more job opportunities available in the private sector? What's holding them back?

It's a big traffic jam - everyone's getting in each others way because they're all too scared to make the first move, and while everyone procrastinates we are bleeding from every orifice financially.

[leicsmac]

Double post.

[ronnup]

No nothing to do with "the ruling class", more to do with people I know bitching and moaning about their pay and pensions when they get a much better deal than I probably ever will in the private sector.

If I don't like the deal my company offers the only option I have is to leave. I don't have a union to bully me a nice wage rise and pension.

I'm sorry but it has a huge amount to do with the ruling classes, the massive increase over the last 30 years in te wealth controlled and operated by the richest 1% and the huge reduction in wealth owned and operated by the rest of us. Sadly the easiest way to move public opinion away from this focus is to blame 'greedy' teachers by reducing their wages by an average 80 pounds a month. Making them work up to 8 years longer and reducing the annual and lump sum pensions they were promised when signing contracts and forgoing private sector careers. The reason? Often seems to be jealousy or bitterness. A lot of 'I don't get it so why should they''. Because when the private sector increased profits for the top 1% and slashed pension funds peole did nothing. And now public sector workers should drop their trousers accordingly?

No thanks.

[Finnegan]

No nothing to do with "the ruling class", more to do with people I know bitching and moaning about their pay and pensions when they get a much better deal than I probably ever will in the private sector.

If I don't like the deal my company offers the only option I have is to leave. I don't have a union to bully me a nice wage rise and pension.

See, this is the attitude I just can't ever understand.

What you're essentially saying is that you're content with your company treating you like shit but you resent an organized group of workers fighting for a better deal for themselves?

The enemy here should be chief execs (private and public) and politicians on six figure salaries - not nurses and teachers on a pittance. But the public as a whole just buy in to this recycled tabloid propaganda over and over about selfish union bully boys and how awful they all are. This is exactly what people mean when they spout the 'divide and conquer' rhetoric, it's about those with money splitting the vote of those without to keep us separated and it's been happening since the dawn of democracy.

[Babylon]

The private sector, in my experience, does not advocate nor foster a collective spirit, but if it did this may be an option.

You also have the ability to negotiate your pay etc on a one to one basis which is not possible in the public sector, hence the need for collective discussions.

No it really isn't an option for a great number of people. Here's the discussion "I want a pay rise", boss "we're only just making enough money to survive, we can't afford it. I've not even paid myself the last 6 months".

End of conversation. If I went on strike I'd burn all bridges there because I'm not just a number like public servants. Not to mention losing clients, making no money for the company most probably ending in losing my job.

[jonthefox]

Jeremy clarksons solution

[Babylon]

I'm sorry but it has a huge amount to do with the ruling classes, the massive increase over the last 30 years in te wealth controlled and operated by the richest 1% and the huge reduction in wealth owned and operated by the rest of us. Sadly the easiest way to move public opinion away from this focus is to blame 'greedy' teachers by reducing their wages by an average 80 pounds a month. Making them work up to 8 years longer and reducing the annual and lump sum pensions they were promised when signing contracts and forgoing private sector careers. The reason? Often seems to be jealousy or bitterness. A lot of 'I don't get it so why should they''. Because when the private sector increased profits for the top 1% and slashed pension funds peole did nothing. And now public sector workers should drop their trousers accordingly?

No thanks.

Ok thanks for letting me know where I get my opinion from. You sound like El Empty in one of his conspiracy threads saying anyone with a differing opinion is some kind of government sheep.

I'd rather read a good newspaper with some independent views. Which usually end up along the lines of the deals as they are are not sustainable in the long term. Pensions wise we're all fecked, public or private sector. But there needs to be a bit more parity.

[leicsmac]

Ok thanks for letting me know where I get my opinion from. You sound like El Empty in one of his conspiracy threads saying anyone with a differing opinion is some kind of government sheep.

I'd rather read a good newspaper with some independent views. Which usually end up along the lines of the deals as they are are not sustainable in the long term. Pensions wise we're all fecked, public or private sector. But there needs to be a bit more parity.

This. This. A thousand times this. But I don't think it will ever happen.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Jeremy clarksons solution

Quick, someone shoot him infront of his family before he declares it was all a lovely joke AS USUAL

[Babylon]

Quick, someone shoot him infront of his family before he declares it was all a lovely joke AS USUAL

I'm not sure he needs to when it quite obviously was. If it had been someone on mock the week people wouldn't have batted an eyelid, but because it's him there will be lots of mock outrage and calls to sack him

[Bellend Sebastian]

I'm not sure he needs to when it quite obviously was. If it had been someone on mock the week people wouldn't have batted an eyelid, but because it's him there will be lots of mock outrage and calls to sack him

If he were just some pantomime **** that everyone ignored I might prescribe to that view, but the problem with him and his ilk is that despite the LOVELY JOKES about poor people, foreign people, disabled people etc etc you get too many folk going yeah, he's got a point. Clarkson for PM!

Stamp on his head until it bursts

[Saxondale]

I'm not sure he needs to when it quite obviously was. If it had been someone on mock the week people wouldn't have batted an eyelid, but because it's him there will be lots of mock outrage and calls to sack him

Correct.

And what's even worse is that has it been some lunatic leftist making a similar joke about fat cats or bankers (which seems to be acceptable at all times these days), all the Guardian readers would have chuckled so much they'd have spat their muesli over their pashmina.

[leicsmac]

Correct.

And what's even worse is that has it been some lunatic leftist making a similar joke about fat cats or bankers (which seems to be acceptable at all times these days), all the Guardian readers would have chuckled so much they'd have spat their muesli over their pashmina.

And why not? The bastards deserve nothing but contempt for the current situation, imo.

That said, Clarkson was obviously taking the piss here (as he often does) and people have wildly overreacted, which is stupid.

[Saxondale]

And why not? The bastards deserve nothing but contempt for the current situation, imo.

That said, Clarkson was obviously taking the piss here (as he often does) and people have wildly overreacted, which is stupid.

Not saying they don't. My point was that people don't mind when harsh jokes are directed at some groups but they're up in arms when they're directed at others.

[leicsmac]

Not saying they don't. My point was that people don't mind when harsh jokes are directed at some groups but they're up in arms when they're directed at others.

In total agreement with you there. Obviously there are some lines you can't/don't cross (Frankie Boyle, take note please) but some people do need to lighten up a bit!

[Thracian]

Yes. It's a bastard when they aren't available to teach, help raise an baby sit YOUR kids isn't it. But hey, **** the greedy bastards. God some opinions on here are so depressing.

I don't give a shit if the teachers stay out for ever so long as I'm not having to pay for them. Why should I pay my bit towards them shirking their responsibility?

Nobody pays for me if I don't turn up for work. God, teachers already get holidays I could only dream of and salaries only a few of them ever deserve judging by the standards of reading and writing I've witnessed from kids lately.

And before you carp about baby sitting I took my youngest out of school thanks - because of just such irresponsibility - and it was one of the best decisions of my life. The very thought of leaving my kid to have his mind aggled by the Marxist trades unionists whose cancerous politics pervade so many school environments is frightening. There is so much to be said for Education Otherwise.

The trades unions who sponsor the Labour Party have long planned to cause as much disruption to the new Government as they can at every opportunity because they want the power back to f**k this country some more - and to swell the ranks of the public services and make ever more people reliant on the Government for their livelihoods.

Well, for me the fewer public sector workers the better - and the fewer trades unions too. Without the unions dictating unrealistic wages, we could re-open the shipyards and build some of the massive cruise liners that need refurbishing every three years providing countless jobs providing the structural engineering, heating, lighting, catering facilities, crockery, glassware, plus ongoing servicing across the board. How many jobs would that provide and how many skills would it preserve in what seems to be a boom industry?.

This country deserves better than policially motivated trades unionism. It should to be a hotbed of entrepreneurial motivation, incentive and initiative, a place where people are rewarded fairly for what they produce and contribute and a place where everyone shows willing to tighten their belts when things get tough. No-one capable of working would get anything for nothing from me. If they don't work, even if it's volunteer work they don't earn and that goes for strikers coping out. .

.

[Wherethefoxhat?]

I don't give a shit if the teachers stay out for ever so long as I'm not having to pay for them. Why should I pay my bit towards them shirking their responsibility?

Nobody pays for me if I don't turn up for work. God, teachers already get holidays I could only dream of and salaries only a few of them ever deserve judging by the standards of reading and writing I've witnessed from kids lately.

And before you carp about baby sitting I took my youngest out of school thanks - because of just such irresponsibility - and it was one of the best decisions of my life. The very thought of leaving my kid to have his mind aggled by the Marxist trades unionists whose cancerous politics pervade so many school environments is frightening. There is so much to be said for Education Otherwise.

The trades unions who sponsor the Labour Party have long planned to cause as much disruption to the new Government as they can at every opportunity because they want the power back to f**k this country some more - and to swell the ranks of the public services and make ever more people reliant on the Government for their livelihoods.

Well, for me the fewer public sector workers the better - and the fewer trades unions too. Without them we could re-open the shipyards and build some of the massive cruise liners that need refurbishing every three years providing countless jobs providing the structural engineering, heating, lighting, catering facilities, crockery, glassware, plus ongoing servicing across the board. How many jobs would that provide and how many skills wouild it preserve in what is a boom industry?.

This country deserves better than policially motivated trades uniuonism. It should to be a hotbed of entrepreneurial motivation, incentive and initiative, a place where people are rewarded fairly for what they produce and contribute and a place where everyone shows willing to tighten their belts when things get tough. No-one would get anything for nothing from me. If they don't work, they don't earn.

.

Hard line.... but absolutely true Thracian !

[Thracian]

Correct.

And what's even worse is that has it been some lunatic leftist making a similar joke about fat cats or bankers (which seems to be acceptable at all times these days), all the Guardian readers would have chuckled so much they'd have spat their muesli over their pashmina.

As ever with the Left, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Rather like private sector and public sector pensions really!.

[Wherethefoxhat?]

Jeremy clarksons solution

Chat show host Piers Morgan tweeted: "Clarkson can abuse - and hit (weakly..) - me all he likes. But what he said about the strikers just proves he's a nasty little twerp !!

Hah !!! This from a jumped up two faced journo who's made a bloody fortune out of cosying up to the chavs !!!!!

Only one nasty little twerp here Piers.......and thats you in spades my old china !!!

[Saxondale]

As ever with the Left, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. Rather like private sector and public sector pensions really!.

Exactly!

The left seem to think that everybody should have an opinion and free speech... as long as it's a left-wing opinion.

And I noticed that many strikers were carrying 'Fair Pensions For All' banners... so are they fighting for generous private sector pensions? Err...no.

[leicsmac]

I don't give a shit if the teachers stay out for ever so long as I'm not having to pay for them. Why should I pay my bit towards them shirking their responsibility?

Nobody pays for me if I don't turn up for work. God, teachers already get holidays I could only dream of and salaries only a few of them ever deserve judging by the standards of reading and writing I've witnessed from kids lately.

And before you carp about baby sitting I took my youngest out of school thanks - because of just such irresponsibility - and it was one of the best decisions of my life. The very thought of leaving my kid to have his mind aggled by the Marxist trades unionists whose cancerous politics pervade so many school environments is frightening. There is so much to be said for Education Otherwise.

The trades unions who sponsor the Labour Party have long planned to cause as much disruption to the new Government as they can at every opportunity because they want the power back to f**k this country some more - and to swell the ranks of the public services and make ever more people reliant on the Government for their livelihoods.

Well, for me the fewer public sector workers the better - and the fewer trades unions too. Without the unions dictating unrealistic wages, we could re-open the shipyards and build some of the massive cruise liners that need refurbishing every three years providing countless jobs providing the structural engineering, heating, lighting, catering facilities, crockery, glassware, plus ongoing servicing across the board. How many jobs would that provide and how many skills would it preserve in what seems to be a boom industry?.

This country deserves better than policially motivated trades uniuonism. It should to be a hotbed of entrepreneurial motivation, incentive and initiative, a place where people are rewarded fairly for what they produce and contribute and a place where everyone shows willing to tighten their belts when things get tough. No-one capable of working would get anything for nothing from me. If they don't work, even if it's volunteer work they don't earn and that goes for strikers coping out. .

.

But that's the thing - people aren't being rewarded fairly. If this country could become a truly free enterprise nation, it would be great. But at the moment - it's an oligarchy, nothing more. The vast majority of wealth is concentrated at the top, immovable, and 'rags-to-riches' stories are a thing of the past.

I'm with you on less Government reliance, but more investment, more job creation and more opportunities to make a decent buck need to be offered by the private sector business owners and the others that have the money to invest!

EDIT: And speaking of indoctrination...the majority of mainstream press media is right wing, and they're very good at getting their own message across. Political influence is not a purely leftwing phenomenon.

[Rincewind]

"I mean, how dare they go on strike when they've got these gilt-edged pensions that are going to be guaranteed while the rest of us have to work for a living."

Clarkson works? He should keep his facist gob shut. I never liked him anyway. All he cares about is himself and his 100 grand flashy car.

Thracian, I wish I had a job and I would not consider £67.50 pw JSA a fortune. Would you stop the money for pensioners and disabled people too? You did say 'If they don't work, they don't earn'

Seems there are still a few Thatcherites scattered about.

[C.J]

I'd go with what Clarkson said.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I'd go with what Clarkson said.

Kelly?