White girls fair game - differing views.

[Zingari]

I think davieG ought to be banned for continually starting inflammatory threads !!

Don't fall for that Mr Nice Guy image he likes to project.

just joking , loving the discussions chaps

[Guest MattP]

You are mistaken.

I find the thoughts behind your words to be odious and malevolent and felt that I'd be better not to continue giving my opinion on a web based forum.

Spend your Saturday Morning on Mumsnet then.

[Rincewind]

Don't Mormans girls marry young? The men can also have more than one wufe. Not sure about white paedophiles knowing what is morally wrong. They usually live a normal life with a wife and famly. If ithe morality affected them would it not show?

It is more of a cultual thing than racial. There people all over the world that are brought up to believe different things Do you think the age of consent has always been 16 in England? I am sure there were Picts, Saxons, Normans, Britons and Romans roaming around the country taking advantage or removing from homes 12 and 13 year old girls. It says it is OK to do this in the Bible and no doubt other religious books. So anyone following the teachings of old would believe they are doing little wrong.

The fact is they broke a law regarless of their ethnic background and should be judged solely on this.

[Rincewind]

eventually there comes a point when people will start taking matters into their own hands if you keep putting your hands over your ears and running away in case you might be "offended".

[Thracian]

I have to agree it's more about power and exploitation rather than race directly. They are targeting the young girls who are more likely to be influenced and directed by giving them gifts and alcohol. I am sure they don't care what ehtnic group they come from as long as they are successful.

What is clear is that these are despicable men and are quite rightly in jail along with similar men from all kinds of race and religion who commit the same offences.

The fact that some young, white girls are vulnerable for various reasons doesn't mean that their being targetted has nothing to do with racial or doctrinal domination. Indeed there is so-much naivity on the subject even though the evidence is pronounced for anyone caring or daring to look.

With the gang mentioned, ask how many muslim girls were exploited. I've heard about none. Their beloved Imams - concerned only with the advancement of Islam - wouldn't tolerate it and it's a pity our own girls don't get the same vigorous protection.

But until we rip up the nonsensical Human Rights Act, get out of Europe and establish our own standards it will never happen.

[FoxyPV]

There may be a cultural element to this BUT this is a power and misogyny issue.

The lead prosecutor for the North East was on Radio 4 recently and he was afraid of race being used to detract from what the real issue is: the abuse of sections of the female population.

As for the notion that paedophiles don't share information about vunerable kids, photos, videos etc

[MooseBreath]

As for the notion that paedophiles don't share information about vunerable kids, photos, videos etc

If that is aimed at any of my posts, you completely missed the point

[FoxyPV]

If that is aimed at any of my posts, you completely missed the point

<misread your post>

[THEBIGJOHNSTEADER;]

Paeodophiles are literally the worst types of people

[Captain...]

Was Gary Glitter a racist?

He went to Cambodia and Thailand to prey on young Asians, was that race related?

As I and others have mentioned white girls may have been targetted because they were easier to be seduced with alcohol, traditionally Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs don't drink alcohol so such temptation wouldn't be there.

There have been some seriously accusatory and inflammatory things said in this thread so far which I would ask for some evidence to back them up, I am not saying they are not true, but they are not things I have experienced from the Pakistanis/muslims I have known.

These pakistani groups on the other hand, engage in this behaviour openly, amongst groups including brothers, uncles and best friends. Their peers, in other words. They have no need to be secretive, because they and their peers exist in a community that genuinely thinks that drugging and raping 11-year-old girls is ok, as long as the girls are white.

That's the distinction. It's plainly obvious, and has been ignored in the past with devestating consequences. Lets hope it doesn't get brushed under the carpet again.

I'd say it was direct yeah, to be quite frank if you want to fcuk a 16 year old Eastern European just head to your local brothel. This was a direct attack on you and vunerable white English girls, the sort of girls like others have mentioned a lot of Muslims quite frankly see as sub-human and there to be abused.

These are some very strong accusations, the likes of which would probably end up being sued for libel if printed in a more public media.

This is not the first case of Pakistani men seducing and abusing young girls, but it is hardly a weekly occurance and accusing whole communities as being misoginistic racist peadophiles believing white girls to be sub-human and worthy of drugging and raping is not on, unless you can provide actual evidence of that, and it does come across as reactionary and racist.

The simple thing is to take race out of it, all predators of all races must be stopped, but if statistically there are more incidents of rape and abuse in pakistani communities then naturally a focus must be taken on looking at why, extra vigilence must be taken and extra policing enforced. In the same way gang crime is more associated with black communities, that isn't racism, that is a stistical fact, that doesn't mean all black people are gangstas, likewise you cannot accuse all pakistani muslims of beng misoginistic racist peadophiles. In some ways whole communities will be tarred with the same brush, and whether justified or not it may make the community leaders more aware of the problem and act to help police themselves, but what cannot be allowed to happen is for whole communities to be ostracised for the actions of a few.

[Guest MattP]

Was Gary Glitter a racist?

He went to Cambodia and Thailand to prey on young Asians, was that race related?

As I and others have mentioned white girls may have been targetted because they were easier to be seduced with alcohol, traditionally Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs don't drink alcohol so such temptation wouldn't be there.

There have been some seriously accusatory and inflammatory things said in this thread so far which I would ask for some evidence to back them up, I am not saying they are not true, but they are not things I have experienced from the Pakistanis/muslims I have known.

These are some very strong accusations, the likes of which would probably end up being sued for libel if printed in a more public media.

This is not the first case of Pakistani men seducing and abusing young girls, but it is hardly a weekly occurance and accusing whole communities as being misoginistic racist peadophiles believing white girls to be sub-human and worthy of drugging and raping is not on, unless you can provide actual evidence of that, and it does come across as reactionary and racist.

The simple thing is to take race out of it, all predators of all races must be stopped, but if statistically there are more incidents of rape and abuse in pakistani communities then naturally a focus must be taken on looking at why, extra vigilence must be taken and extra policing enforced. In the same way gang crime is more associated with black communities, that isn't racism, that is a stistical fact, that doesn't mean all black people are gangstas, likewise you cannot accuse all pakistani muslims of beng misoginistic racist peadophiles. In some ways whole communities will be tarred with the same brush, and whether justified or not it may make the community leaders more aware of the problem and act to help police themselves, but what cannot be allowed to happen is for whole communities to be ostracised for the actions of a few.

Glitter went to Thailand because you can go to the Chicken farm no questions asked............we are suppose to have law and order that protects against sexual abuse here.

Sued by who? Who owns the Islamic religion? That said it wouldn't be a hard thing to prove in court were I asked and I'd like to see what the defenition of "a lot" covers..... I suppose I could be dragged up in court on some sort of Marxist jumped up criminal charge but that's about all and that wouldn't cause me any worry as the Liberal elite have tried that with far more promiment figures than me and failed to get the gag put on so the so called freedom of speech lovers so desperately would like.

I suggest we come back to this in 6 months, like I've said, the Rochdale case is the tip of the iceberg.

[MooseBreath]

Well the "fair game" comment, amongst numerous other similar comments, has been printed all over the media.

I'm not sure you're understanding the point that the way in which these groups operated - openly, and amongst friends & relatives - is quite a clear suggestion that these people saw nothing wrong with their actions, that they do indeed see white girls as "fair game".

This issue of communities (and by that I don't mean to generalise - two people can be a community) accepting treating young white girls as fair game for drugging and sexual expolitation is disproportionately represented by pakistani men. That clearly points to a problem which exists specifically within the wider pakistani community.

[Captain...]

My point was provide some evidence, we can all say, muslim communities encourage raping white girls!!!

But without any evidence to back it up it comes across as racist and reactionary.

This is the second case in recent times that I can think off, that is hardly as rife as you make out, if you have evidence of more happening please take your evidence to the police, if not I don't see how you can make the comments you have done.

[Guest MattP]

My point was provide some evidence, we can all say, muslim communities encourage raping white girls!!!

But without any evidence to back it up it comes across as racist and reactionary.

This is the second case in recent times that I can think off, that is hardly as rife as you make out, if you have evidence of more happening please take your evidence to the police, if not I don't see how you can make the comments you have done.

"a lot" is extremely different to stating its a whole community.

[MooseBreath]

A Muslim community leader has said there is a "problem" of British Pakistani men thinking "white girls are worthless and can be abused".

...Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of The Ramadhan Foundation, said grooming was "a significant problem for the British Pakistani community".

Is he racist too?

[Guest MattP]

Is he racist too?

Boooooooooooooooooooooo....BNPer......get him in court.

[Captain...]

"a lot" is extremely different to stating its a whole community.

But it does imply the majority, a random google came up with this article, not the best article in the world, but it does sum up the views on this quite well, without actually going into detail on each point:

Published: May 11th 2012 - at 9:10 am

Four wrong-headed generalisations about the grooming and rape case

by Sunny Hundal

Did you know that British Pakistani women don’t get raped by British Pakistani men? Neither did I, because it’s not true. It is more likely in fact that most sexually abused British Pakistani women suffer at the hands of British-Pakistani men, since rape cases usually involve people who know each other.

The case of gangs of British-Pakistani men grooming and raping young white girls in Bradford should be a cause of huge concern to all of us. And yes, sometimes it is political correctness gone mad when the police and social services ignore cries of help for risk of looking racist (which they clearly did).

I’m not new to this issue: I’ve been saying for nearly a decade that this problem needs to be exposed and rooted out or it will get worse. Nevertheless, some accusations and assumptions about this case have annoyed me.

Accusation 1: It’s about their ‘culture’

Broadly, this can mean only two things: they targeted white girls because of their race, or their culture encourages this sort of behaviour. Both of these miss the wood for the trees.

No doubt these men felt it was OK to exploit white girls. But don’t think for a second they had any regard for Asian women either. Misogynists rarely make racial distinctions – they are willing to exploit any woman that comes their way. They just found it easier to groom and rape white girls in this case. They may be racist too – but I highly doubt that was their motivation for this crime

The second argument implies something in their culture encourages such behaviour towards white women. But does it really? Thousands of women in Pakistan get trafficked and/or raped every year. They definitely don’t get special consideration in the culture.

Or is the implication that Pakistani culture (or Islam itself, if you’re Melanie Phillips or David Aaranovitch) that is to blame? In which case, is Irish culture in general to blame for what happened in the churches? Is Catholicism overall at fault? Is Judaism to blame for ultra-Orthodox Jews suppressing sexual abuse of kids?

Is ‘white culture’ to blame for this sex abuse ring? I’d like people to spell out what they mean when they blame ‘culture’ and apply the same standards to other cases and groups of people.

Accusation 2: The Asian community should take responsibility

I have spent years arguing that Asians are not a homogenous group any more than white people are. Even Pakistanis aren’t a homogenous group: they speak different languages and live differently.

There isn’t an ‘Asian community’ any more than there is a ‘white community’, and so-called ‘community leaders’ are mostly a bunch of self appointed middle-aged men who want to feel important.

It is not the job of any community to police themselves: it is the job of the police to prevent crime and protect girls from exploitation. Local families should help, obviously, but blaming them all is like saying all Irish, Scottish or Jews are to blame for cases I mentioned above.

And how many families want to get involved against or deal with people who deal drugs and move about in gangs?

Accusation 3: We shouldn’t be afraid to say its a Pakistani problem

Sure it is – if you just want to concentrate on one type of crime in one area over a specific period of time. But sexual violence in the UK is rife. Lots of white men do it too – just in different contexts. So why do the same people not get heated about that? Why not get heated an angry about internet grooming?

Why not call for legislation to deal with domestic violence, rape, grooming and molestation? Why do these people suddenly find their morality when Asian men are involved, and focus just on those kinds of sex crimes?

Accusation 4: Liberals have said nothing for years

Like night follows day, almost every incident is used by right-wing political commentators to score points. According to Ed West for example, liberals have kept quiet about this for years.

Erm, you could have fooled me. Or you could have fooled Adil Ray. The BBC Asian Network too has covered this issue repeatedly. In 2006 a group of Muslims clerics even issued a warning that children were being abused in Muslim schools and set out to reform institutions.

Furthermore – feminists have been saying for years that sexual violence is endemic and authorities have ignored it (in all areas, not just gang-grooming). Commentators who routinely dismissed feminists in the past regarding rape culture now have the temerity to accuse them of being quiet.

—

It goes without saying: we need stronger legislation to deal with this problem; the police need to be more pro-active; some people need to stop blaming the girls.

Update: A few have asked what more legislation is required. For a start, there is no criminal offence of ‘on-street grooming’ – though arguably covered by other legislation. Secondly, more needs to be done to deal with the CPS disbelieving many survivors.

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/05/11/four-wrong-headed-generalisations-about-the-grooming-and-rape-case/

It sums up both sides of the argument, and actually suggests ways of reform to tackle this issue.

[Captain...]

Is he racist too?

Nope but that was my point, without backing it up with evidence it sounds reactionary and racist, I have no reason to believe that this was anything more than an isolated incident, if you give me evidence to the contrary I will be more inclined to believe you.

If you say that whole communities are encouraging the rape of white girls without evidence, then I will find it harder to believe.

[MooseBreath]

Nope but that was my point, without backing it up with evidence it sounds reactionary and racist, I have no reason to believe that this was anything more than an isolated incident, if you give me evidence to the contrary I will be more inclined to believe you.

If you say that whole communities are encouraging the rape of white girls without evidence, then I will find it harder to believe.

There have been at least two major cases where groups of pakistani men have been jailed for grooming. The suggestions coming from within the pakistani community suggest that the problem is much more widespread than that and the full extent of the issue is yet to be brought into the public eye. Here's more from Mr Shafiq:

"There is an over-representation [of Asian men] amongst recent convictions in the crime of on-street grooming [and] there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals," he said.

"They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community."

He said community elders were "burying their heads" over the issue and police and local councils should not "be frightened" to address the problem, as there was "a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over-sensitive".

Mr Shafiq said Muslim leaders needed to "reject any attempt to silence the reaction from our community".

And he said police would also need to "reflect on their failures" in this case.

So there you have a member of the community in question openly admitting to everything that is being spoken about in this thread.

I can't pretend that I understand the motive behind your apparent desperation to remove race from this issue in the light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[Lineker's Left Foot]

Of course it is racially motivated and Vaz is a complete tos*er !!

[Captain...]

There have been at least two major cases where groups of pakistani men have been jailed for grooming. The suggestions coming from within the pakistani community suggest that the problem is much more widespread than that and the full extent of the issue is yet to be brought into the public eye. Here's more from Mr Shafiq:

So there you have a member of the community in question openly admitting to everything that is being spoken about in this thread.

I can't pretend that I understand the motive behind your apparent desperation to remove race from this issue in the light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Because it is not a race issue, it is an issue that affects a particular community more than others, not all Pakistanis think that way about white girls, and the danger behind some of the comments you made is that people read them and start to foster feelings of distrust and hate towards all Pakistanis.

You have commented that it is whole communities that accept/support this behaviour, but the quote that you have posted shows that they are actually bringing shame on the community, and it is not tolerated within the community, but as the article I posted alludes to the police are not listening to victims and are afraid of approaching and investigating the Pakistani community for fear of being accused of racism.

My view on this is fairly fluid, and the more I look into it I can see that there is a likelihood that this is more prevalent in Pakistani communities than the 2 incidents that have made the news, in which case something should be done. It is not on these communities to police themselves over these cases though and it needs a stronger policing presence, and they need to be able to do so without it being seen as racially motivated.

[MooseBreath]

Watch Dispatches: Britain's Sex Gangs on 4od. Lots of anacdotel evidence of numerous cases where no conviction was realised. They also analysed cases where there has been convictions of group grooming in the last decade and concluded that "out of the 46 convictions, 40 have been Pakistani".

Ok so maybe it's not strictly race-specific. But it certainly is pakistani-specific and their targets are always white girls.

[Webbo]

Because it is not a race issue, it is an issue that affects a particular community more than others, not all Pakistanis think that way about white girls, and the danger behind some of the comments you made is that people read them and start to foster feelings of distrust and hate towards all Pakistanis.

Presumably you're clever enough to come to your own conclusion but you think there is a danger that the rest of us are too thick to think for ourselves?

[The Year Of The Fox]

I'm not even bothering commenting about the OP. The second you mention 'Muslim' on this site there are that many do gooders who can't wait to play the race card.

Unfortunately, people like this breed the racial divide much more than they think they're stopping it.

[BoneDog]

Why does everyone call these people Muslims? Anyone who thinks they are Muslim is wrong. They obviously haven't read the Koran and they obviously don't believe in God because they don't follow any of the advice he gave them. I know more about their supposed religion than any of them do, so that shows me that they are not Muslims. All that these type of men care about is money, alcohol, drugs and getting their sexual kicks any way they can. None of these things are in any way related to Islam, Christianity or any religion in general. They are more Satanic if anything - what is the saying the Satanists all love to quote, "Do as thy wilt"?

It's like saying Fred West represents the average English male and Christianity because he was born in England which is supposedly a Christian country. Or that the protected network of pedo rings across Britain represent white Christians. Pakistan is no more a Muslim country as England is a Christian country. A minority of Pakistan is truly Muslim, just as a small minority of Britain is truly Christian. It's absolutely ridiculous to bring religion into this.

I love how the press say they shy away from these issues to avoid 'causing tension' and people believe them!! The top bosses in the press thrive on causing tension and we are being played by them and their masters in order to lead us to awful scenes that have been planned for decades. People from Enoch Powell right through to Dawkins and Hitchins were/are involved in this grand scheme and the fruit is about to bloom. I know those three people are heroes and 'thought givers' to many so I'll leave it there and won't try to tarnish their image anymore! The honourable legends them!

The country is full of people who cannot see their nation's own downfall being prepared right in front of their eyes. Or they can see it, but they are laying the blame at the wrong doors. I even saw a report on a financial site recently that was trying to lay the blame for the financial crisis on Muslims! It's just ridiculous fiction, but people actually repeat the slogans.

Anyways, I hope that all these men get locked up, but unfortunately there is a much bigger network of psychos running amok who will never be punished.