A proper defensive midfielder

[marbelladave]

I know but we all know what you're like

Analytical and realistic......

[seenitall]

Bullshit!!!! Let's look back at what I've said about your DM. I've said I don't think a specialist is needed if you have the right players in other parts of the team and two Cm's who can put a tackle in if needed.

Secondly I have said that it's a bit too early to be banging on as though it's our one and only problem. So far in my mind we were very comfortable against Boro and according to those who went (except MD) we dominated a newly promoted club (always tricky) for 65 minutes away from home.

I have never denied it was a problem last year, in fact only agreed it was. But this year we have changed all areas of the team, and it's quite possible that those changes may alter what went before with us losing a battle.

My main gripe is that yourself and kingfox said it was a problem before the season and have seemingly given it two games to decide that it's still a problem. Focusing on an average first half against posh (which I don't believe had anything to do with not having a DM) and a bad 25 minutes in an away game.

To me it looks as though you are both looking for things to prove your point. Micro Analysing a goal and bad patches here and there whilst not making as much comment on the good like 65 minutes of being on top or a good 45 against posh.

Our real bad games last year like Millwall, Bristol, reading etc we were bossed for the majority of the game. So far we haven't been. The last result might not have been what we wanted, but the chances were there for it to be very different.

Maybe the problem will still be there, maybe it won't. I just find you banging on about it after seeing only one game exceptionally frustrating.

I will moan about what I think needs moaning about and will give people a proper chance before doing so.

If arguing that two games isn't enough to know how good Vardy, or our new team is, or sticking up for someone against rumours of them falling out with players left right and centre has me down as a Pearson bummer them that's fine. But I actually believe that's the right stance.

Amazing that you still think like this

[Babylon]

You've been like this for ages mate IMO. Not just after two games this season. You were pretty much the same with Sven too. I commend you for it to be fair. You simply appear reticent to discuss a manager, tactics etc whilst they are incumbent, if such a discussion is verging on the perceived 'negative'. I may be wrong Babs, it's simply my perception.

However, I'd just rather you didn't try to thrust such loyalty in the face of myself. I'm loyal to Pearson too and first and foremost a City fan. But that doesn't mean I won't discuss my concerns over a problem which was very apparent last season becoming one too again this season if we aren't careful. I want us to succeed.

Note this down..... I hope we go on to stuff Blackburn via a beautiful attacking display and then continue to control many games against our opponents. That way it may well be I've been talking out my arse. I won't care at all... I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I suppose critisising Beckfords performances doesn't count? Or umpteen other players I've not been particularly happy with.

Or that Pearson needed to be more positive? Or that we were shit at attacking and defending set pieces? Or the hundreds of other things I've said.

Difference being I usually wait to see if it's a problem, rather than getting a bee in my bonnet after 8 games (or two in this case).

You said to someone the other day on here. Something along the lines of... Why are you worrying about something you have control over and something that might not even be a problem.

That's how I view what you are saying now. It might not even be a problem!

Yes you'll say you are just voicing a concern, nothing wrong with that. But for me (and its only my opinion) the sheer number of times it has been brought up take it past that a bit.

[Babylon]

Amazing that you still think like this

I'm amazed you think I give a shit what you think.

[kingfox]

Bullshit!!!! Let's look back at what I've said about your DM. I've said I don't think a specialist is needed if you have the right players in other parts of the team and two Cm's who can put a tackle in if needed.

Secondly I have said that it's a bit too early to be banging on as though it's our one and only problem. So far in my mind we were very comfortable against Boro and according to those who went (except MD) we dominated a newly promoted club (always tricky) for 65 minutes away from home.

I have never denied it was a problem last year, in fact only agreed it was. But this year we have changed all areas of the team, and it's quite possible that those changes may alter what went before with us losing a battle.

My main gripe is that yourself and kingfox said it was a problem before the season and have seemingly given it two games to decide that it's still a problem. Focusing on an average first half against posh (which I don't believe had anything to do with not having a DM) and a bad 25 minutes in an away game.

To me it looks as though you are both looking for things to prove your point. Micro Analysing a goal and bad patches here and there whilst not making as much comment on the good like 65 minutes of being on top or a good 45 against posh.

Our real bad games last year like Millwall, Bristol, reading etc we were bossed for the majority of the game. So far we haven't been. The last result might not have been what we wanted, but the chances were there for it to be very different.

Maybe the problem will still be there, maybe it won't. I just find you banging on about it after seeing only one game exceptionally frustrating.

I will moan about what I think needs moaning about and will give people a proper chance before doing so.

If arguing that two games isn't enough to know how good Vardy, or our new team is, or sticking up for someone against rumours of them falling out with players left right and centre has me down as a Pearson bummer them that's fine. But I actually believe that's the right stance.

Me and Col have different opinions to you obviously.

The home performance against Peterborough wasn't comfortable in my opinion in the first half, we looked ragged and had to work seriously hard against a team favourites for relegation. I went, I have a season ticket so obivously I saw the match and that was my opinion in the first half, unlike the second half where we were comfortable and dominated, we didn't do that in the first half, we were the team who had to chase the ball not Peterborough, we were the one's who had to do all the pressing and tackling, if you don't think this then you must of been watching a different game.

We lacked it last season, and we lack it again this season and that is a defensive midfielder. We have made changes in all positions apart from goalkeeper and central midfield, I wouldn't call signing James as a serious change, serious change is if we brought in 2 or 3 midfielders like we did last season, James in my opinion is not needed because he is far too similar than all our other midfielders we have, having similar midfielders will not get teams anywhere this season, you need a blend of defensive solid physical midfielder, with a general midfielder and an attacking midfielder. Evidence shows over the past couple of season's nearly every team who got promotion and top six, had all these qualities in their midfield, but we simply don't have them, we have got rid of them or they have deteriorated. Wellens as in deteriorated, and Abe and Fernandes as losses.

Drinkwater - Too inconsistent, is just a general midfielder who is on the weak side

James - Another general midfielder who will get in a tackle here and there and pass a ball around the field

King - Our goalscoring midfielder, who lacked goals last season

Danns - Work rate is excellent, but another general midfielder not really defensive and not really attacking

Wellens - Injured and going dramatically down hill

Where is the defensive side to these players, a real defensive side that we so seriously lack?

Nowhere is the answer im afraid Babs but you obviously think differently.

[Col city fan]

I suppose critisising Beckfords performances doesn't count? Or umpteen other players I've not been particularly happy with.

Or that Pearson needed to be more positive? Or that we were shit at attacking and defending set pieces? Or the hundreds of other things I've said.

Difference being I usually wait to see if it's a problem, rather than getting a bee in my bonnet after 8 games (or two in this case).

You said to someone the other day on here. Something along the lines of... Why are you worrying about something you have control over and something that might not even be a problem.

That's how I view what you are saying now. It might not even be a problem!

Yes you'll say you are just voicing a concern, nothing wrong with that. But for me (and its only my opinion) the sheer number of times it has been brought up take it past that a bit.

Oh you ALWAYS have to have the last bloody word!

[seenitall]

I'm amazed you think I give a shit what you think.

I'm amazed that you even post on here you get your knickers in such a twist

[cc_star]

Got some time to kill so... enters thread, looks around for a point to debate

[Babylon]

Me and Col have different opinions to you obviously.

The home performance against Peterborough wasn't comfortable in my opinion in the first half, we looked ragged and had to work seriously hard against a team favourites for relegation. I went, I have a season ticket so obivously I saw the match and that was my opinion in the first half, unlike the second half where we were comfortable and dominated, we didn't do that in the first half, we were the team who had to chase the ball not Peterborough, we were the one's who had to do all the pressing and tackling, if you don't think this then you must of been watching a different game.

We lacked it last season, and we lack it again this season and that is a defensive midfielder. We have made changes in all positions apart from goalkeeper and central midfield, I wouldn't call signing James as a serious change, serious change is if we brought in 2 or 3 midfielders like we did last season, James in my opinion is not needed because he is far too similar than all our other midfielders we have, having similar midfielders will not get teams anywhere this season, you need a blend of defensive solid physical midfielder, with a general midfielder and an attacking midfielder. Evidence shows over the past couple of season's nearly every team who got promotion and top six, had all these qualities in their midfield, but we simply don't have them, we have got rid of them or they have deteriorated. Wellens as in deteriorated, and Abe and Fernandes as losses.

Drinkwater - Too inconsistent, is just a general midfielder who is on the weak side

James - Another general midfielder who will get in a tackle here and there and pass a ball around the field

King - Our goalscoring midfielder, who lacked goals last season

Danns - Work rate is excellent, but another general midfielder not really defensive and not really attacking

Wellens - Injured and going dramatically down hill

Where is the defensive side to these players, a real defensive side that we so seriously lack?

Nowhere is the answer im afraid Babs but you obviously think differently.

Well I have already said we will have to disagree on the boro game. You said we had to press them and chase. That's exactly what I didn't see us do until the second half. The problem I saw was that we were happy to sit off them, the strikers dropped off and didn't pressure them which meant the CM's dropped off as well and the whole teem sat back and just let them pass it around their own half. Considering the possession we let them have we could have had the cigars out we weren't troubled once.

You can say they are favourites for relegation. Well last year at home they out scored all put 3 teams and away only scored 3 less than Cardiff. They know very well where the goal is. And they hardly had a sniff.

First half was nothing to do with not having a DM. We lost possession down to poor control up top and lack of support. That and sitting back contributed to the possession.

As for the rest. I've already said I don't believe you need a specialist. Just two players who can do both as well as other players capable of a bit of graft around them in the wings and up top.

[Babylon]

I'm amazed that you even post on here you get your knickers in such a twist

What like you do over Pearson or your "dear old Sven".

[kingfox]

Well I have already said we will have to disagree on the boro game. You said we had to press them and chase. That's exactly what I didn't see us do until the second half. The problem I saw was that we were happy to sit off them, the strikers dropped off and didn't pressure them which meant the CM's dropped off as well and the whole teem sat back and just let them pass it around their own half. Considering the possession we let them have we could have had the cigars out we weren't troubled once.

You can say they are favourites for relegation. Well last year at home they out scored all put 3 teams and away only scored 3 less than Cardiff. They know very well where the goal is. And they hardly had a sniff.

First half was nothing to do with not having a DM. We lost possession down to poor control up top and lack of support. That and sitting back contributed to the possession.

As for the rest. I've already said I don't believe you need a specialist. Just two players who can do both as well as other players capable of a bit of graft around them in the wings and up top.

Sorry but I think that is utter rubbish.

We hardly had possession in the first half, literially the midfield had to chase to get the ball off Peterborough in midfield I can't believe you didn't notice that, did you go down in the refreshment area for about 30 minutes of the first half.

We hardly had any possession in the first half, we simply had to chase and struggled to win the ball, and when we did we couldn't control it.

Second half we didn't have to chase and press them, that was there job, because we had more much of the ball and kept it better.

[Dr The Singh]

Hmmm, I got to say if there ever was a man that believed he needed a defensive player, it's got to be Pearson.

[Dr The Singh]

Sorry but I think that is utter rubbish.

We hardly had possession in the first half, literially the midfield had to chase to get the ball off Peterborough in midfield I can't believe you didn't notice that, did you go down in the refreshment area for about 30 minutes of the first half.

We hardly had any possession in the first half, we simply had to chase and struggled to win the ball, and when we did we couldn't control it.

Second half we didn't have to chase and press them, that was there job, because we had more much of the ball and kept it better.

Would having this one defensive player change all that? Only having seen Leicester once all season, in my opinion it's the tactics, away from especially, Pearson likes to play tight and that seems to suck away the billies of the players.

[kingfox]

Would having this one defensive player change all that? Only having seen Leicester once all season, in my opinion it's the tactics, away from especially, Pearson likes to play tight and that seems to suck away the billies of the players.

We have nobody to dismantle attacks, and sit there and help the midfield or the defence, if we had a player like that it would help us a lot, and Drinkwater and co wouldn't have to chase all around the midfield and do loads of defensive work, midfielders will tire us out this season if we don't get in a player to do defensive work for the midfield, Drinkwater, Danns, James and King will have to do a lot of running against better opposition. I think we need a defensive midfielder to break up attacks and win the ball and keep it for us, while Drinkwater, James or Danns will do the general work of keeping the ball, passing it around and making the odd tackle, while King should concentrate on the goalscoring side of things, because teams who get promoted have a goalscoring midfielder in their team, if King plays and becomes isolated like last season, and has to do a lot of defensive work like last season, he will struggle to score goals again.

Reading had Leigertwood who was a solid defensive presence and was capable of attacking aswell, while Karacan is the all round midfielder, while Kebe, McAnuff, Leigertwood and Harte chipped in with goals.

West Ham had Nolan and Noble who can do everything under the sun, and were playing for a Championship side when they were Premier League quality players, both can defend, pass, keep the ball and score goals, while they also brought in Vaz Te to score goals from out wide.

Southampton scored a hatful of goals from midfield in Lallana and Guly, while Hammond, Schneiderlin and Cork did the general and defensive work.

We simply don't have combinations and quality like the teams had above, we have far too similar players, all playing the same roles.

[onecapwonder]

We have nobody to dismantle attacks, and sit there and help the midfield or the defence, if we had a player like that it would help us a lot, and Drinkwater and co wouldn't have to chase all around the midfield and do loads of defensive work, midfielders will tire us out this season if we don't get in a player to do defensive work for the midfield, Drinkwater, Danns, James and King will have to do a lot of running against better opposition.

This was why I was quite keen on seeing Bamba play as defensive midfielder/destroyer last season for a few games, I thought it would give us a constant presence in front of the defence as opposed to a rotating trio where each player has to think about when to stay back or not freeing up the other midfielders and allowing the fullbacks to be more forward thinking. Unfortunately when we tried it Bamba played a couple of over ambitious passes in the first 10 mins, gave the ball away, and for the rest of the time he was on the pitch the rest of the team just ignored him and we were rather disjointed. For most of the match Bamba took up very good positions as a safe passing option where he would be able to switch play to the flanks but none of the other midfielders trusted him enough to pass it to him.

Ultimately the experiment failed and Pearson seems to have decided on 4-4-2 for this season, for which I agree with you in that we need a dynamic, physical presence along the lines of Etuhu at Blackburn. Our players just aren't good enough to start getting ideas about playing Carrick/Scholes dual passers in midfield, MUFC get away with that because they keep the ball so well they don't need a destroyer to constantly break up opposition attacks because there simply aren't constant opposition attacks. Even more so against top teams Fletcher and Park always found their way into the side, which will make how they play in the CL this season interesting, as Phil Jones is the only player in their squad you'd consider as a disruptive midfielder. We rarely controlled games last season at home, we seemed to deliberately allow Pborough the ball last Saturday, to get away with this you need to have someone to win it back or simply play on the counter hoping the opposition aren't good enough to keep the ball from you and score. Pborough could do the former but not the later but there are a lot better teams than Pborugh, a strategy of letting a team run themselves into the ground against your defensive bullwalk and hit them in the second half when they are tired doesn't work if the opposition score in the first half.

[Thracian]

Me and Col have different opinions to you obviously.

The home performance against Peterborough wasn't comfortable in my opinion in the first half, we looked ragged and had to work seriously hard against a team favourites for relegation. I went, I have a season ticket so obivously I saw the match and that was my opinion in the first half, unlike the second half where we were comfortable and dominated, we didn't do that in the first half, we were the team who had to chase the ball not Peterborough, we were the one's who had to do all the pressing and tackling, if you don't think this then you must of been watching a different game.

We lacked it last season, and we lack it again this season and that is a defensive midfielder. We have made changes in all positions apart from goalkeeper and central midfield, I wouldn't call signing James as a serious change, serious change is if we brought in 2 or 3 midfielders like we did last season, James in my opinion is not needed because he is far too similar than all our other midfielders we have, having similar midfielders will not get teams anywhere this season, you need a blend of defensive solid physical midfielder, with a general midfielder and an attacking midfielder. Evidence shows over the past couple of season's nearly every team who got promotion and top six, had all these qualities in their midfield, but we simply don't have them, we have got rid of them or they have deteriorated. Wellens as in deteriorated, and Abe and Fernandes as losses.

Drinkwater - Too inconsistent, is just a general midfielder who is on the weak side

James - Another general midfielder who will get in a tackle here and there and pass a ball around the field

King - Our goalscoring midfielder, who lacked goals last season

Danns - Work rate is excellent, but another general midfielder not really defensive and not really attacking

Wellens - Injured and going dramatically down hill

Where is the defensive side to these players, a real defensive side that we so seriously lack?

Nowhere is the answer im afraid Babs but you obviously think differently.

Referring to King's "lack of goals" last season serves no purpose. It was crystal clear he had some kind of injury that limited his mobility and effectiveness. So far he seems to have recovered although it's been mentioned that Pearson might well be taking things cautiously with him.

However, if he's fit, King is an excellent defender but he doesn't have the explosive energy to be defender, midfielder and striker all the time and in every match. If he goes forward, someone has to cover him and that means defenders having to get forward, fill the spaces and stop being part-timers.

Danns does have explosive energy and stamina in abundance but the problem is his thinking time. He wins that ball well enough but seems to want an extra touch that we can't afford because that touch allows the opposition recovery time or risks his being dispossessed in dangerous places.

Wellens and Abe weren't outstanding midfielders in any sense and I don't think anyone saw what Fernandes was capable of because he hardly ever played.

[indierich06]

Right, can we finally put to bed the myth that we need a 'proper defensive midfielder' in order to compete in this league? Andy King and Danny Drinkwater easily had the beating of Murphy and Etuhu today - probably the most physical midfield in this league. We dominated that game, regardless of the result, and our midfield was a big part of that. For me, King and Drinkwater should definitely be our first choice midfield duo, they look very good together. I'm glad we've got good options on the bench too in James and Danns, but these two are more than good enough to get us out of this league. If we continue to perform as we have over the last few games and start to get more clinical, we're going to start destroying teams.

[Col city fan]

Right, can we finally put to bed the myth that we need a 'proper defensive midfielder' in order to compete in this league? Andy King and Danny Drinkwater easily had the beating of Murphy and Etuhu today - probably the most physical midfield in this league. We dominated that game, regardless of the result, and our midfield was a big part of that. For me, King and Drinkwater should definitely be our first choice midfield duo, they look very good together. I'm glad we've got good options on the bench too in James and Danns, but these two are more than good enough to get us out of this league. If we continue to perform as we have over the last few games and start to get more clinical, we're going to start destroying teams.

No we can't.

We've lost our first two away games and conceded four goals which could easily have been more.

Unless we tighten up as a defensive unit when away from home, we will continue to concede goals.

[kingfox]

No we can't.

We've lost our first two away games and conceded four goals which could easily have been more.

Unless we tighten up as a defensive unit when away from home, we will continue to concede goals.

I still believe Col is right.

We really need to tighten up, we looked better in midfield today but there was loads of space in that area of the field, if Murphy and Etuhu seen more of the ball they would of easily exploited us more.

I think Pearson brought the wrong player in James and should of brought in a defensive midfielder instead.

[Babylon]

I still believe Col is right.

We really need to tighten up, we looked better in midfield today but there was loads of space in that area of the field, if Murphy and Etuhu seen more of the ball they would of easily exploited us more.

I think Pearson brought the wrong player in James and should of brought in a defensive midfielder instead.

But they didn't see more of the ball.

When our players didn't see much of the ball against posh it was down to not having a DM you said . Now we did have the ball, did well and stopped their two cm's from playing its down to their players not having the ball and not us.

All week people have banged on about how our 4 in midfield would get bossed by them. Today we bossed them and cut through them time after time.

[Col city fan]

I still believe Col is right.

We really need to tighten up, we looked better in midfield today but there was loads of space in that area of the field, if Murphy and Etuhu seen more of the ball they would of easily exploited us more.

I think Pearson brought the wrong player in James and should of brought in a defensive midfielder instead.

Am I wrong or were both of their goals today scored from just outside the edge of the area where they had time to pick their spot? Again.

Is it so tough to see that having a strong player dropping deep into this area could sometimes (of course, not always) get their foot in or simply divert the opposing attacking player away from goal?

ITS NOT ONLY THIS SEASON.. It happened far too often last season under Pearson.

How do you do that smiley where you hit your head on the wall? I need it now please....

Hold on....

:hityourheadonawall:

Nope, didn't work...

[indierich06]

But they didn't see more of the ball.

When our players didn't see much of the ball against posh it was down to not having a DM you said . Now we did have the ball, did well and stopped their two cm's from playing its down to their players not having the ball and not us.

All week people have banged on about how our 4 in midfield would get bossed by them. Today we bossed them and cut through them time after time.

You've got more chance of getting a blowjob from the pope than getting this pair to admit that our midfield bossed it today. After all that talk of King not being able to perform against physical midfielders. After all that talk of Blackburn's fantastic midfielders that we wouldn't be able to cope with. And what happened? They didn't get a sniff.

[Col city fan]

You've got more chance of getting a blowjob from the pope than getting this pair to admit that our midfield bossed it today. After all that talk of King not being able to perform against physical midfielders. After all that talk of Blackburn's fantastic midfielders that we wouldn't be able to cope with. And what happened? They didn't get a sniff.

And they scored their two goals from where?

[Basildon Fox]

Am I wrong or were both of their goals today scored from just outside the edge of the area where they had time to pick their spot? Again.

Is it so tough to see that having a strong player dropping deep into this area could sometimes (of course, not always) get their foot in or simply divert the opposing attacking player away from goal?

ITS NOT ONLY THIS SEASON.. It happened far too often last season under Pearson.

How do you do that smiley where you hit your head on the wall? I need it now please....

The first goal was more down to an error from Konch. The second resulted after a ricochet from a midfielder getting a block in which Pederson then beat our RB and slotted the ball home. Surely a defensive midfielder would have done the same as Danns or are you suggesting the ball would have fallen for us after the block and not Blackburn? Confused...

[Babylon]

Am I wrong or were both of their goals today scored from just outside the edge of the area where they had time to pick their spot? Again.

Is it so tough to see that having a strong player dropping deep into this area could sometimes (of course, not always) get their foot in or simply divert the opposing attacking player away from goal?

ITS NOT ONLY THIS SEASON.. It happened far too often last season under Pearson.

How do you do that smiley where you hit your head on the wall? I need it now please....

If you try I'm sure you can try and blame every goal on not having a DM.

I'm sure he'd have been stood right next to Konchesky to clear up just in case he fooked up... Or stood next to RDL in the box to save him getting turned.

If Blackburns wonderful midfield with a DM (the ones you lot said would dominate us) can't handle our weak shambles I fear for them more than us.