A proper defensive midfielder

[Corky]

2 games, 2 sub appearance, 2 goals.

Why would you change it, if he comes on at half time against Blackburn, he will score, the stats don't lie.

But it seems as though, from what I saw against Peterborough and what I read about last night is that his all-round game has improved, his link-up play and positional play has come on from last season.

The goals are vital, but he seems to be offering more than just goals now.

[dmayne7]

2 games, 2 sub appearance, 2 goals.

Why would you change it, if he comes on at half time against Blackburn, he will score, the stats don't lie.

Yes, but we didn't win last night did we? King changed that game so with the form he is in we are going to have a better chance of winning if he spends 90 mins on the pitch.

[fleckneymike]

In the two league games we have played thus far our play and attacking prowess has improved when King has been introduced.

Pearson clearly bought James as he felt he could play a key role in the side, currently he is struggling to make an impact on the pattern of play but this may be due to his recent ill health as well as his lack of experience at this or any other level. I think King may well have played his way into the first XI thanks to his two recent appearances and is capable of playing both deep and further forwards.

I remain of the opinion that King is comfortably our best player when fit.

[cc_star]

A defensive midfielder?

Most midfielders do it all these days, gone are the days where a Lennon would lap it all up & lay it off to an Izzett to go racing up the pitch

I'm not saying we've got the mix right or anything and I suppose our more traditional 442 means we still need one to go up & one to hold back...

Will be good to see how it pans out after more than 2 games... Things seem more certain after roughly the 6th game and the table takes on some shape too

[MrSpaM]

Can't see spearing getting a look in under Rodgers. loan maybe?

Would love for this to happen, chances are slim but itd definatly sort out or defensive problems in midfield.

[kingfox]

I'm not sure I agree KF

Drinky is a good player, I like him.

Danns ain't bad.

King is good at what he does

James... I have no idea about yet.

So I can't compare them yet with other teams midfields.

My issue is that they all seem to similar in how they play their game.

For Drinkwater you have James, for Danns you have King. Which of them really does what role exactly. Someone on another thread mentioned that we looked much better last night when King took on a more defensive position and mopped up the loose balls. Is that King's natural role?

How about we get somebody in to do THAT job well so that King can get forward more?

I dunno... Maybe James is the answer and our midfield will dominate games. I'm only putting it out there...

With any luck we'll go on to stuff Blackburn now.

My issue is that they all seem to similar in how they play their game.

And what did I say before Matty James even pulled on a Leicester shirt, yet nobody would listen to me. I was willing to give him a chance, but I don't think we need him because he is too similar.

King was nowhere near good on the defensive side of things in the last couple of season's, he is more attacking and is our goalscorer from midfield, like I said a couple of weeks ago we missed his goals from midfield last season, that's why we didn't get top six.

Many midfields are better than us this season, and yet again we will get dominated im sure of it, Drinkwater, James, Danns and King are all far too weak to deal with the likes of Blackburn. They can pressure all they want, but you need to get the ball from them and keep it, and they can't do that, we did exactly that against Peterborough, closed them down ever so well but still couldn't get the ball, until they passed it in their final third and messed up. We have needed a defensive midfielder for sometime now, you will never get a player like Lennon but a defensive midfielder in general is what we need, whether he is tall and physical or a little snapper who breaks up attacks and keeps the ball.

At the minute we haven't got either of those, and to get promotion you need a physical presence in midfield and a goal scoring midfielder. In our play-off season we had King scoring the goals and Wellens doing the defensive work, but now Wellens has gone down hill and injured anyway, we haven't replaced him and Matty James how hard he tries will not be the defensive midfielder we are looking for, he seems a natural central midfielder like Danns and Drinkwater, and whoever plays I doubt it will work against the big sides.

[Poznan34]

Can't see spearing getting a look in under Rodgers. loan maybe?

We need someone angry looking. He fits the bill!

[Col city fan]

We need someone angry looking. He fits the bill!

Away from home we need someone to fill the gap, to be disciplined enough to stay there and to simply win the ball, lay it off, win the ball, lay it off.......

Watch Mascherano at Barcelona. That's his whole game. Rarely does he get into the opposition half. He supports his back four then simply gives the ball to the playmakers to do their stuff.

[Babylon]

And what did I say before Matty James even pulled on a Leicester shirt, yet nobody would listen to me. I was willing to give him a chance, but I don't think we need him because he is too similar.

Probably because YOU HAD NEVER SEEN HIM PLAY!

I was willing

So you aren't any more after two games? I would have thought you would learn your lesson with Drinkwater.

[Captain...]

But it seems as though, from what I saw against Peterborough and what I read about last night is that his all-round game has improved, his link-up play and positional play has come on from last season.

The goals are vital, but he seems to be offering more than just goals now.

Yes, but we didn't win last night did we? King changed that game so with the form he is in we are going to have a better chance of winning if he spends 90 mins on the pitch.

But it is a winning formula, guaranteed goals, never change a winning formula...

I wasn't being entirely serious with that comment by the way, King's all round game was back to his best, he looked sharp hungry and creative, his best position is sitting deeper mopping up and ghosting into the box, he is not an attacking CM, but he can't be a defensive CM as that would restrict him going forward, at his best he had a good understanding with Wellens, they covered each other and didn't leave the back four exposed, they also supported the left side, with help from Oakley in the right midfield role tucking in, giving Lloyd license to attack.

We could adopt a cdm cam approach, but I think we would be much better with a more fluid 442, everyone taking responsibility for attack and defence, this comes with understanding and experience and as I said in the other thread we had 3 young and inexperienced midfielders starting on Tuesday, King is not much older, but has much more experience, Knockeart is again quite young and new to this team, it will take time to perfect this system and get the players to not make mistakes, but after Charlton I left the game very encouraged by the performance and probably the happiest I had been after watching us lose.

[onecapwonder]

The problem really is the "traditional 4-4-2" it requires two midfielders of a very high calibre with all round games. We simply don't have that in the squad despite the huge number of players we have. If you look at Tottenham last season they played a traditional 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 depending on the avaliability of VdVart, Adebeyor and Defoe. Their midfield pair was Modric and Parker, these two can be split into a more defensive player, Parker, and a more creative attacker, Modric, however they both share similarities. Both are mobile, both can pass well over all distances, both are able comfortable moving forward though Modric clearly is the better. Again more historically the Untited combination of Scholes and Keane or Arsenal with Vieira and Parlor/Gilberto show the need for all round games in a midfield two.

Now consider the players we have, obviously no where near that calibre, but can we pick out two who have such traits and abilites at Championship level. I would say no. We have Danns, he is dynamic, mobile and capable driving forward, but he can't pass for toffee. King, he is a decent passer (though in the trio of Wellens, Abe and him from 10/11 he was the weakest) but he is poor defensively and struggled last season when Pearson experimented with him as the deeper midfielder with Wellens. Wellens, himself is pretty much gone he just doesn't have the mobility for a 2 man midfield though I would like to see him a least tried as a regista in a 3 to exploit his passing ability. Drinkwater, from what I' saw last season is a poor man's Carrick to me, hes not very mobile, not a particualry strong tackler, likes to sit and spray passes but isn't that great at it. I haven't seen James play but it seems he hasn't set the world on fire.

We just don't have, in my opinion the midfielders for a 4-4-2. A proper 4-4-1-1 (with King or Marshall as the 10 actually between the lines and coming back to help in midfield not as a second stiker) or a 3 man midfield is the way to go. A 3 man midfield would harness the dynamism of Danns, the goal scoring ability of King/Marshal and then add in a passer to help circulate the ball. The trio would help us control matches against weaker sides, help compete against the stronger midfields and compensate for the fact that none of our midfielders are complete enough to play in a pair.

We could also try a diamond and play it properly as the Italians did in the Euros. Have Marshall as the 10, Wellens as a deep passer then use Dann's clear energy in midfield with another player and use the fullbacks to provide width. Konch is still a very fit and good attacking fullback for this level, Moore is young enough and fast enough to pull it off on the right. This would also allow Pearson to play two strikers, see below for why this is needed.

Why do we not do this? Because we have far too many strikers Pearson can't drop, our squad ballance is terrible. We have don't have enough defenders to cope with 1 injury, we have 4 "first team" central midfielders for 2 positions yet our wing options are only Dyer (a winger who can't cross, an inside forward who can't shoot), Knockeart and Marshall. Finally we have 6 strikers, of which Beckford and Nugent are highly paid, high profile, (and highly vocal if you believe every thing you read here) Vardy was bough for a large sum from the conference so is a major gamble, Waghorn and Fuctas aren't ever going to feature and Schlupp is the only youngster who would be happy to make substitute appearances. Its crazy we have 5 first team strikers and have to play a 4-4-2 to appease the highest percentage of them possible, which shafts the midfield because we just don't have the players for it.

So in relation to a pure defensive midfielder (Makelele, Busquets or even Abe) we don't really need one as Pearson doesn't seem to want to play a formation in which a sitter can be accommodated in midfield, it just isn't possible in a standard 4-4-2.

[Col city fan]

But it is a winning formula, guaranteed goals, never change a winning formula...

I wasn't being entirely serious with that comment by the way, King's all round game was back to his best, he looked sharp hungry and creative, his best position is sitting deeper mopping up and ghosting into the box, he is not an attacking CM, but he can't be a defensive CM as that would restrict him going forward, at his best he had a good understanding with Wellens, they covered each other and didn't leave the back four exposed, they also supported the left side, with help from Oakley in the right midfield role tucking in, giving Lloyd license to attack.

We could adopt a cdm cam approach, but I think we would be much better with a more fluid 442, everyone taking responsibility for attack and defence, this comes with understanding and experience and as I said in the other thread we had 3 young and inexperienced midfielders starting on Tuesday, King is not much older, but has much more experience, Knockeart is again quite young and new to this team, it will take time to perfect this system and get the players to not make mistakes, but after Charlton I left the game very encouraged by the performance and probably the happiest I had been after watching us lose.

I done enjoy reading your posts. You calmly put your views over without glibness.

However, over all the years I've seen football being played, whether by City or whoever, the usual key to success IMO is control.

Control of the football, self-control with discipline, tactical control and generally control of a game.

Against Charlton on Tuesday night, it appears to me that we had little control of the football match.

Attacking football is all well and good, but if it leaves you exposed to a 'sucker punch' such that you concede before you score, the control is gone. It looks like we were playing too far forward, left space in front of the back four, which was then taken advantage of.

One nil down and then all control went until half-time. The second goal came.

The second half, as I said on the night, I knew we would come out and attack. We had too, we were two nil down. And we attacked well. But again, any control we had over the game was lost and they could have as easily gone three-one up as we could have equalised.

The best teams sort themselves out defensively. I'm not saying, of course, that Leicester are a Man City or a Barcelona. But such teams win the ball back, whether employing a DM or not, keep it and control a game. Then, when they attack, it's on their terms.

I think that we were defensively naive against Charlton, as a team. This then forced us to go all guns blazing in the second half, whether we wanted to or not.

I want us to do well, yes it's only two games, but I don't want to see us play away from home this season like we did last. Instead I want to see us defending better as a unit, winning more ball and retaining possession better. Get these fundamentals right and then our attacking prowess can make the impact it needs to, when we want it to.

Does this need a defensive midfielder in the purest sense? Ok maybe not... I'll go with the majority. But it definitely needs more defensive discipline from all the players than was on show, or so it would appear, against Charlton.

If we don't defend better collectively, we will be having these discussions about 'who is our best defence' again this season, exactly like we did last.

[Captain...]

The problem really is the "traditional 4-4-2" it requires two midfielders of a very high calibre with all round games. We simply don't have that in the squad despite the huge number of players we have. If you look at Tottenham last season they played a traditional 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 depending on the avaliability of VdVart, Adebeyor and Defoe. Their midfield pair was Modric and Parker, these two can be split into a more defensive player, Parker, and a more creative attacker, Modric, however they both share similarities. Both are mobile, both can pass well over all distances, both are able comfortable moving forward though Modric clearly is the better. Again more historically the Untited combination of Scholes and Keane or Arsenal with Vieira and Parlor/Gilberto show the need for all round games in a midfield two.

-snip-

You are right we don't have a good midfield to play 442 and finish top six in the premiership, but we are not trying to do that, comparing to Keane and Scholes, or Parker and Modric is pointless, we also don't have the players to compare to the Italians, so playing a diamond won't work, like it didn't under Sven.

I agree with the balance of the squad, but it will look better when SSL, Whitbread and Kennedy are back, Vardy is also very capable of playing wide left.

442 worked well enough plenty of times last season, and has seen us beat Torquay, Peterborough and Sunderland, we also dominated large parts of the game against Charlton, and with better finishing we would have won, despite playing 442, the problem was not the formation or the personnel it was 2 lapses in concentration that we got punished for.

The sky is not falling in, we may need to review how we set-up away from home, we lost a number of away games last season we shouldn't, and we have started this season in the same way, but there is no need for wholesale changes, we have a young inexperienced side and they have acquitted themselves very well so far, there is very little to be upset about with regard the Charlton game, and nothing I don't see being put right soon.

All of these great changes will just undo all of the work done over the pre-season so it would be counter productive, give the team at least 5 league matches before deciding NP has got it all wrong, I don't 100% agree with everything he has done, but he is still our most successful manager of recent times, that was no accident.

[onecapwonder]

You are right we don't have a good midfield to play 442 and finish top six in the premiership, but we are not trying to do that, comparing to Keane and Scholes, or Parker and Modric is pointless, we also don't have the players to compare to the Italians, so playing a diamond won't work, like it didn't under Sven.

I agree with the balance of the squad, but it will look better when SSL, Whitbread and Kennedy are back, Vardy is also very capable of playing wide left.

442 worked well enough plenty of times last season, and has seen us beat Torquay, Peterborough and Sunderland, we also dominated large parts of the game against Charlton, and with better finishing we would have won, despite playing 442, the problem was not the formation or the personnel it was 2 lapses in concentration that we got punished for.

The sky is not falling in, we may need to review how we set-up away from home, we lost a number of away games last season we shouldn't, and we have started this season in the same way, but there is no need for wholesale changes, we have a young inexperienced side and they have acquitted themselves very well so far, there is very little to be upset about with regard the Charlton game, and nothing I don't see being put right soon.

All of these great changes will just undo all of the work done over the pre-season so it would be counter productive, give the team at least 5 league matches before deciding NP has got it all wrong, I don't 100% agree with everything he has done, but he is still our most successful manager of recent times, that was no accident.

I was using those players as examples of the players who succeded in a 4-4-2 that everyone would have heard of, I then go on to say that we don't have players anywhere near that good but we can identify the traits they possessed which are need for a 4-4-2 and see if our midfielders displaty these at a significantly lower level. I then suggest that from what I have seen they don't so for that reason 4-4-2 may not be the best formation to play. I can think of many other reasons why 4-4-2 isn't a good idea as well.

Ultimately the point of my post was that we don't need a defensive midfielder because we play 4-4-2 and you can't play a sitting/defensive midfielder in a 4-4-2. There also seemed to be a fair amount of discusion about our other midfielders so I threw my two pence in.

As for changes, I agree with you if we have been practicing to play 4-4-2 we should do, I don't think it gets the best out of our players and exposes our midfielders lack of all round abiity but its Pearson's choice. What is more concerning is we lost to Charlton because we couldn't deal with hoof balls up to a big'un who flicks it on to a little'un, which can't be solved by any formation change. Pearson who built a play off run on the back of hardwork and an incredible defence needs to sort that out sharpish.

[kingfox]

Going on last season's evidence of the performances from central midfield, we struggled to control games and got dominated in that area of the field. We moved on Gelson Fernandes and Yuki Abe, which left us with Wellens, Danns, King and Drinkwater towards the latter. The central midfield partnership of Wellens and King didn't perform half as well as they did a couple of season's prior to the 11/12 campaign, last season they were poor and got dominated. Neil Danns didn't look particulary good either especially at the start of the season, his performances came under question, whether he was good enough to start or not, he didn't dominate the midfield when he played either, but of course offered plenty of energy to the midfield, finally Drinkwater came in and was far too inconsistent and seemed too weak in the midfield.

This season we have only really made one change in Matty James, but as threads or posts over the past couple of weeks have shown, people think the central of midfield will be a worry this season. Last season we lacked on the defensive side, and last season we lacked on the goalscoring side, so far though Andy King seems back to form and has scored two goals from midfield, but it's the other players which I have little confidence in. I won't bother talking about Wellens, but the trio of Drinkwater, James and Danns all seem far too similar, yes it's early days but last season Drinkwater got dominated in midfield and seemed far too weak, he has started well this season, but in the first half against Peterborough he had to do the running and that's in a home game, and against Charlton him and James didn't perform that well, and on that evidence it seems that we may be in store for the kind of thing we saw last season, failing to control the midfield and getting dominated because the midfield is far too weak.

Against Peterborough Drinkwater and James closed down very well, but Peterborough clearly dominated the first half, yes they didn't make anything in the final third, but Drinkwater and James had to do a lot of running, and when they got stuck in, sometimes they managed to win the ball, and sometimes they didn't and Peterborough got the ball straight back and started passing it around again. Peterborough are one of the favourites for relegation yet they even had us on the run around, and then we came to Charlton who are on paper a better team than Peterborough, and seemed better in midfield than they did. There are far more teams in this division that are better than Peterborough and Charlton in midfield, and that makes me think that the midfield won't be able to dominate the likes of Blackburn, Blackpool and Wolves our next three league games, and we need to be beating teams like that, and getting more control in midfield in games like that.

Blackburn have signed Etuhu and Murphy, them two up against Drinkwater and whoever Pearson plays, will probably get dominated Murphy is far more experienced and im afraid the likes of Drinkwater and James will be embarrassed by the control Murphy will have, while Dickson Etuhu is a tank he has the power and he has the defensive side, Drinkwater and co will be lucky to win many balls in midfield from these two.

I feel the midfield is far too weak and won't be able to control the midfield this season, we saw it last season and the players have not changed, they are all far too similar in their style of play, and we haven't got the defensive midfielder or attacking presence we need in midfield. We lack strength and we lack quality, in our play-off season we had the defensive side in Wellens, and we had the goalscoring side in King, yet last season we didn't have that and that's why we didn't get top six, because we lacked on the defensive side and got controlled too many times, and we failed to score goals from midfield, we have already lost against Charlton and we have to travel to many sides on paper that are better than them this season, Blackburn have Etuhu and Murphy, Blackpool have Ferguson, Sylvestre and Angel and Wolves have Henry, Peszko and Doumbia, Henry who is a great defensive midfielder and Doumbia who is 6ft3.

I may get absolutely riled for this, but I think Pearson has made the wrong signings in midfield so far(I am not saying all his signings are bad just to make myself clear), and has failed to identify our lack of defensive presence in midfield, Pearson needs to rectify this problem or I can see us failing to make the top six again, because the midfield will be far too weak, and won't be able to dominate games, I can name at least 10 teams with better central midfield partnerships than us, even Forest have assured up their midfield by signing Guedioura on a permanent deal who I believe is a fantastic signing for them, while they also have Moussi who is a physical presence, and have Cohen to come back aswell.

Is our central midfield good enough this season, or can you see what happened last season happening again, and that's teams controlling us and us lacking on the defensive side of things?

[Babylon]

I was only just saying to my friend that what this place was lacking was a thread on defensive midfield.

[Corky]

I was only just saying to my friend that what this place was lacking was a thread on defensive midfield.

I'd have thought seenitall had more pressing issues on his/her/it's mind.

[dmayne7]

Yes it can

[Babylon]

To me we were never dominated in midfield against posh, they just passed the ball around there own half and we seemed happy to let them. That does not constitute "dominated". Second half we were all over them like a rash. Against Charlton we were on top for the first 20, then Charlton did outplay us, but again second half we were on top.

Maybe you are right, maybe you aren't. But we are TWO games into the season, and during both games we have actually been the more dominant team. If we had been up against it for the majority and clearly been losing all our battles I could understand the moaning.

Do people expect us to win every battle all night long. Other teams are going to have patches where they are on top. But usually the team having the most of them will win the game. That didn't work out against Charlton, but you can't account for missing the absolute sitters we did.

[Col city fan]

I was only just saying to my friend that what this place was lacking was a thread on defensive midfield.

Another little bit of glibness, even sarcasm...

I expect more from you!

No hold on... No I don't...

In all sincerity I'm just trying to suggest where I think we MAY have a weakness in how we play away from home.. Like others have done maybe?

It's just an idea, it doesn't mean I hate the club, I don't respect Pearson etc etc... I'm simply trying to make a suggestion where I'd like us to be stronger.

Rather than the little sarky knocks, why don't you try yourself? Or if you're happy with everything, say so...

[Babylon]

Another little bit of glibness, even sarcasm...

I expect more from you!

No hold on... No I don't...

Well you see, what you don't know is that someone else started ANOTHER midfielder thread, I commented on that one. It then got merged with this one along with my comment. So, cheer up it wasn't aimed at THIS thread.

[Col city fan]

Well you see, what you don't know is that someone else started ANOTHER midfielder thread, I commented on that one. It then got merged with this one along with my comment.

Ah one of the joys of being a Mod.....

[kingfox]

To me we were never dominated in midfield against posh, they just passed the ball around there own half and we seemed happy to let them. That does not constitute "dominated". Second half we were all over them like a rash. Against Charlton we were on top for the first 20, then Charlton did outplay us, but again second half we were on top.

Maybe you are right, maybe you aren't. But we are TWO games into the season, and during both games we have actually been the more dominant team. If we had been up against it for the majority and clearly been losing all our battles I could understand the moaning.

Do people expect us to win every battle all night long. Other teams are going to have patches where they are on top. But usually the team having the most of them will win the game. That didn't work out against Charlton, but you can't account for missing the absolute sitters we did.

Peterborough had much more of the ball than us in the first half on Saturday, they didn't dominate as such but they frustrated us and passed it around the back and around midfield, they had us on the run around for much of the first half, we really struggled to win the ball from them sometimes and that's only Peterborough, a side which is favourite for relegation.

Also regardless if we were on top for 20 mins in the first half against Charlton, that means Charlton were the better side for 25 mins of that first half, so surely they were slightly better than us, and yes second half was better but we still couldn't win the game when we probably should have got a draw looking at the chances we had. It clearly showed in the first half that the central of midfield lacked ability because James couldn't dominate and looked very out of place and got subbed at half time because of this.

There are far more teams better than Peterborough and Charlton, especially in midfield and on the evidence of last season we will fail to control the midfield, I don't expect us to dominate from start to finish, but we need more control we need to be more assured in our play and keep that flaming ball, because last season we couldn't do this, we looked weak and sloppy for the majority of the campaign. All our midfielders were either poor in Wellens and King, or inconsistent in Drinkwater and Danns.

We haven't got the physical presence we need Babylon, we had it in Wellens but he is on the decline, we haven't replaced him at the start of this season and when he comes back, I doubt he will improve.

We will have serious problems in midfield when we come up against the likes of Blackburn, Blackpool and Wolves, because they have far better quality and far better options than we have, they can rotate better, they have attacking presence and they have defensive presence, we just have a bunch of midfield generals who fail to get hold of the ball and keep it, and dominate the midfield for 50-60 minutes of a game in which we need to do in my opinion to get promotion.

The players we have are far too similar, while the players the likes of Blackburn and Wolves have all have different qualities whether it's defensive skills, general skills or attacking skills.

[Col city fan]

Peterborough had much more of the ball than us in the first half on Saturday, they didn't dominate as such but they frustrated us and passed it around the back and around midfield, they had us on the run around for much of the first half, we really struggled to win the ball from them sometimes and that's only Peterborough, a side which is favourite for relegation.

Also regardless if we were on top for 20 mins in the first half against Charlton, that means Charlton were the better side for 25 mins of that first half, so surely they were slightly better than us, and yes second half was better but we still couldn't win the game when we probably should have got a draw looking at the chances we had. It clearly showed in the first half that the central of midfield lacked ability because James couldn't dominate and looked very out of place and got subbed at half time because of this.

There are far more teams better than Peterborough and Charlton, especially in midfield and on the evidence of last season we will fail to control the midfield, I don't expect us to dominate from start to finish, but we need more control we need to be more assured in our play and keep that flaming ball, because last season we couldn't do this, we looked weak and sloppy for the majority of the campaign. All our midfielders were either poor in Wellens and King, or inconsistent in Drinkwater and Danns.

We haven't got the physical presence we need Babylon, we had it in Wellens but he is on the decline, we haven't replaced him at the start of this season and when he comes back, I doubt he will improve.

We will have serious problems in midfield when we come up against the likes of Blackburn, Blackpool and Wolves, because they have far better quality and far better options than we have, they can rotate better, they have attacking presence and they have defensive presence, we just have a bunch of midfield generals who fail to get hold of the ball and keep it, and dominate the midfield for 50-60 minutes of a game in which we need to do in my opinion to get promotion.

The players we have are far too similar, while the players the likes of Blackburn and Wolves have all have different qualities whether it's defensive skills, general skills or attacking skills.

I think you've made your point mate..

So have I...

Leave it....

[Babylon]

Peterborough had much more of the ball than us in the first half on Saturday, they didn't dominate as such but they frustrated us and passed it around the back and around midfield, they had us on the run around for much of the first half, we really struggled to win the ball from them sometimes and that's only Peterborough, a side which is favourite for relegation.

We didn't struggle to win the ball, they barely came into our half with it and when they did just gave it away. They had possession because we didn't press them high enough up the pitch and could keep possession up top when we received it. "On the run around" I'm sorry but it just wasn't like that, we sat there with two banks of four most of the first half and let them **** about in front of us. How many times did they actually get through us?

Also regardless if we were on top for 20 mins in the first half against Charlton, that means Charlton were the better side for 25 mins of that first half, so surely they were slightly better than us, and yes second half was better but we still couldn't win the game when we probably should have got a draw looking at the chances we had.

So you agree we were the dominant midfield for 65 minutes of the game... away from home?