A proper defensive midfielder

[Col city fan]

Having listened to the game last night on the radio (yes, I wasnt at the Charlton game), it sounded like the defence again struggled to cope. This time, with the pace of Wright-Phillips and the aerial threat? of Kermogant.

Are people again going to suggest that the defence isn't good enough? Especially if we go on to lose on Saturday?

This was a comment that was made lots of times last season.... we played Mills, Bamba, Peltier, SSL. And they all seemed to struggle defensively. So much so that whatever combination was tried, none seemed to work consistently.

Now we have DeLaet, Morgan and young Moore and.... and again last night, we seemed to be overrun and looked defensively very nervy. On a positive note, this could be rectified to some extent, with the introduction of Whitbread, if he can get fit enough to play. And SSL can come back..which could make a difference.

How about this.......it could actually be that the defence itself is not the problem? Last season, it appeared that whatever defence was played, they were not sufficiently supported by those in front of them. Therefore, I suggested that the team needs a proper midfield defensive-minded player. A player who can thwart opposition attacks and break them up before they can put so much pressure on the back four that it starts to crumble.

Is James such a player? I really don't know... he didn't play particularly well against Peterborough and sounded like he was pretty pedestrian last night.

Lloyd and Marshall are primarily attack minded players. Lloyd was getting forward as much as possible last night, and the reports are that Marshall could not get on the ball sufficently to play his natural game.

Is Danns such a player? Well, I think he's tenacious with his tackling, but gets forward perhaps too much to be considered the disciplined, defensive minded player I'm talking about.

I don't want again this season, to go away from home and to be consistently over-run in the midfield. If this can happen against a very average Charlton side, I do fear for us when we are playing away at Wolves, Blackburn, Bolton and the like.

I'm not slating our players at all...as I said last night, they need the time to develop and improve their confidence. But this problem of being over-run away from home really does need rectifying.

Does this team require a bigger, tougher, defensive-minded midfielder to sit off the back four and to break-up opposition attacks before they develop further? Would it help? Or do you feel that the current midfield we have are going to be good enough to go away from home and to pick up points? Do they just need time to gel?

Opinions please......

[Happy Fox]

People have been saying James is the answer he may well be but it cannot be expected given his inexperience at that role at this level of football. Personally I would bring one in maybe an older head someone like Sean Derry.

[chris_lcfc_85]

I think its a very very difficult one to answer.....

We have very talented midfield players but we just cant seem to find the right balance.

Having said that, not all sides have a proper defensive midfielder and have been successful without them.

I'd still like to see Danns and Drinkwater or King to start.

Drinkwater is a very talented player and he was better when King was on

[paulsherwood1]

Having listened to the game last night on the radio (yes, I wasnt at the Charlton game), it sounded like the defence again struggled to cope. This time, with the pace of Wright-Phillips and the aerial threat? of Kermogant.

Are people again going to suggest that the defence isn't good enough? Especially if we go on to lose on Saturday?

This was a comment that was made lots of times last season.... we played Mills, Bamba, Peltier, SSL. And they all seemed to struggle defensively. So much so that whatever combination was tried, none seemed to work consistently.

Now we have DeLaet, Morgan and young Moore and.... and again last night, we seemed to be overrun and looked defensively very nervy. On a positive note, this could be rectified to some extent, with the introduction of Whitbread, if he can get fit enough to play. And SSL can come back..which could make a difference.

How about this.......it could actually be that the defence itself is not the problem? Last season, it appeared that whatever defence was played, they were not sufficiently supported by those in front of them. Therefore, I suggested that the team needs a proper midfield defensive-minded player. A player who can thwart opposition attacks and break them up before they can put so much pressure on the back four that it starts to crumble.

Is James such a player? I really don't know... he didn't play particularly well against Peterborough and sounded like he was pretty pedestrian last night.

Lloyd and Marshall are primarily attack minded players. Lloyd was getting forward as much as possible last night, and the reports are that Marshall could not get on the ball sufficently to play his natural game.

Is Danns such a player? Well, I think he's tenacious with his tackling, but gets forward perhaps too much to be considered the disciplined, defensive minded player I'm talking about.

I don't want again this season, to go away from home and to be consistently over-run in the midfield. If this can happen against a very average Charlton side, I do fear for us when we are playing away at Wolves, Blackburn, Bolton and the like.

I'm not slating our players at all...as I said last night, they need the time to develop and improve their confidence. But this problem of being over-run away from home really does need rectifying.

Does this team require a bigger, tougher, defensive-minded midfielder to sit off the back four and to break-up opposition attacks before they develop further? Would it help? Or do you feel that the current midfield we have are going to be good enough to go away from home and to pick up points? Do they just need time to gel?

Opinions please......

Good post. James had a poor half last night, but I also think u have to look at the tactics. In the first half we were 'long ball' Leicester, hoofing it high into the air for vardy or Beckford to flick on. All we did was lose possession.

The midfield was much better second half, drink water sat in the middle / defensive role and did very well.

Dyer proved yet again why he plays championship not Premiership. He gets into great positions but can't finish and is a slow decision maker.

Everyone slags the defence, but second half we kept a clean sheet!!! It was poor tactics and being exposed in midfield that cost us first half.

[marty78]

That's quite an analysis from a radio commentary. I personally trust Pearsons credentials to run a football club more than our fans so I would say no, we don't.

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

Sounded like we were just unfortunate not to get any points last night - played well for the first 20 minutes and controlled the 2nd half, but the damage was done when we weren't at our brightest and didn't manage to put away most of our better chances after King's goal.

It's only a matter of time before we have Whitbread and SSL ready to play, and I'm sure they'll be able to provide their parts for a good defence.

Also - isn't James still ill? Might explain why he's not been playing 100%.

[martyn]

We were never "overrun" at any stage.

Charltons plan was to lump it/get quick balls from deep into their front 2. In the 1st half we lost every first and critically, every 2nd ball. Fair play to Powell, he'd obviously done his homework.

The only way we would have benefitted from a Genuine DM was in snuffing out the 2nd balls, something King helped to do 2nd half simply by being clever with his positioning. To say at any stage we were being overrun by waves of Charlton attacks would be false.

[kingfox]

As you know Col, I have the same views as you do on all of this, and have called for a defensive midfielder for some time.

The likes of Drinkwater, James and Danns just aren't strong enough, they are too weak against opposition midfield, and will get dominated by most teams in this division. Even Peterborough had a lot of the ball, yes they didn't make anything out of their possession, but they still had a lot of the ball in midfield and Drinkwater and James had to chase in the first half, rather than get the ball themselves and attack and pass around. It was frustrating to watch on Saturday in the first half, while last night seems similar to last season, Danns, Drinkwater, Wellens and King whoever was playing failing to control the midfield.

I said couple of weeks ago as you know, put Etuhu and Murphy up against Drinkwater and James they will get absolutely dominated, same if you put King or Danns in, they will get dominated, because they are too weak defensively.

Pearson has the wrong players in midfield, last season we saw better work in midfield when we had Gelson Fernandes, he tackled won balls, passed well and was the player we needed, and he got his loan terminated. We simply have the wrong players who are all far too similar, in there style of play, Danns is like Drinkwater can run and can hassle, but is far too inconsistent in their games. James seems exactly like that aswell, keen passer, will get stuck in but he isn't the defensive midfielder we need.

We need a physical presence, a tall strong midfielder who will break down attacks, get stuck in and help control the game. At this current time we don't have that in Drinkwater, Danns, King and James. This is a reason why I don't believe we will get promoted this season, because the midfield isn't good enough, last season it wasn't good on the defensive side, we got dominated, and it wasn't good on the attacking side, because we lacked goals.

We need a defensive midfielder and a proper one, I would prefer a big physical presence, but some little snapper like Shaun Derry would be perfect. Wellens did all this in the season when we got into the play-offs, he was absolutely excellent for us, but now he has gone down hill we have nobody.

I am a big fan of Liam Trotter and surprised nobody has gone in for him yet, if this carries on Pearson will look at his midfield and know that he has made a mistake in buying Matty James, I actually liked the look of him on Saturday in parts, but last night it seems he was out of his depth. I said we didn't need a midfielder like him, we needed a defensive one or an attacking one, James is just a typical central midfielder like Drinkwater and Danns.

I can see our midfield getting dominated for some time, if Pearson doesn't go and buy a defensive midfielder. The defence is good, Konchesky is consistent always has been, Morgan will play more good than bad, Moore shouldn't play he should be eased in now and again, would prefer him on the bench at this stage, while De Laet has started pretty well. Whitbread is a good defender but far too injury prone, while St Ledger had a fantastic second half to last season, and was one of our better players at home.

But I don't rate the midfield, we will get dominated too often and that's a fact, it happened last season and it will happen again, because the players we have a far too weak.

[Legend_in_blue]

We need the next Neil Lennon. Where is he?

[indierich06]

I wouldn't say the defence struggled last night - Charlton's first goal came against the run of play and you can't really legislate for that, the second was a bit of a shambles because we seem to have switched off. We definitely have the right players, but we need to work on keeping our performance up for the whole 90 minutes and not switching off - sometimes you can get away with it, but Charlton capitalized on it.

[morris1234]

2 games down - 44 to go...forget last night, learn from it , trust the players we have and they will come good. Get this tough start out the way with a few points and a few positives and we will be all good.

Remember Only 2 players from last season remain in the starting line up, still a new team and we've played well so far, perhaps not up to the standard that is expected. But why do we expect such a high level of dominance...what are some basing this view on? We have a lot of good players, spent a lot of money but it's about getting the balance right. Easier said than done but last night we didn't make it easy for charlton in the end, we made them work for their win. Mistakes happen and will always happen, it's about taking your chances when they come up and last night showed why football can be cruel and frustrating. I myself was cursing at the radio when it fell to Lloyd near the end!

Just remember its a long season, and like was mentioned in another thread, there's no point in threads doubting players individually.

Build up some form, score some goals and move along nicely. We don't need to lead from the off, just look what reading did. All season Southampton and west Ham ran away from everybody. Slowly slowly catchy premier leaguey!

[Alf Bentley]

Remember Only 2 players from last season remain in the starting line up, still a new team

I assume that you mean only 2 players who STARTED last season at the club remain in the starting line-up (3, in fact)? Schmeichel, Konchesky, Morgan, Drinkwater, Marshall, Dyer and Beckford (7) all played most games for the second half of last season, as did sub Nugent - while sub King is hardly a new boy. So, while we do have new players to fit in, we don't have more than most teams, and certainly don't have a "new team".

Just being pedantic about accuracy, not making any point about the City team generally - I remain optimistic at this stage, but wouldn't think of making any definitive judgment for several months.

[Babylon]

Having listened to the game last night on the radio (yes, I wasnt at the Charlton game), it sounded like the defence again struggled to cope. This time, with the pace of Wright-Phillips and the aerial threat? of Kermogant.

Are people again going to suggest that the defence isn't good enough? Especially if we go on to lose on Saturday?

We were on top the first 20 minutes, got hit by a sucker punch and didn't regain control until half time, we then were on to dominate the whole second half. And could have ended up winning quite comfortably, all according to those who are there

So, our "overrun" midfield managed to dominate 65 minutes of a football match. They were hardly troubled Saturday first half with boro content to pass it around their own half, and again went on to dominate the whole of the second half.

We know you have decided (before a ball was kicked) that we needed this fabled midfielder, I'm not sure that after two games that for the majority we have been actually been alright is a fair time to be sticking the blame on them. Especially when the biggest culprits for yesterday were the players not capable of putting away the numerous chances created by the said "overrun" midfield.

[Col city fan]

We were on top the first 20 minutes, got hit by a sucker punch and didn't regain control until half time, we then were on to dominate the whole second half. And could have ended up winning quite comfortably, all according to those who are there

So, our "overrun" midfield managed to dominate 65 minutes of a football match. They were hardly troubled Saturday first half with boro content to pass it around their own half, and again went on to dominate the whole of the second half.

We know you have decided (before a ball was kicked) that we needed this fabled midfielder, I'm not sure that after two games that for the majority we have been actually been alright is a fair time to be sticking the blame on them. Especially when the biggest culprits for yesterday were the players not capable of putting away the numerous chances created by the said "overrun" midfield.

I've felt that we needed such a player most of last season and for some time now. I've made that clear.

Such players are not fabled.. QPR had one in Derry and then went on to romp the league. If you go to Blackburn on Saturday you'll see another in Dickson Etuhu.

West Ham had a big, strong midfielder in Nolan last year (who can also score goals). Ipswich have one in Jay Thomas. Man City have possibly the best one in Yaya Toure ( who can also score goals) and have now signed Rodwell having sold DeJong.

You're right, we didn't gain control till half time, having conceded two. There's the problem. We attacked second half because we had to and because they started to tire.

Such a player is not fabled. What's again clear IMO is your continued reluctance to even discuss where any of our problems may lie, both contemporarily and historically.

After we conceded 2, last night, it sounded like we could have easily gone 3 or 4 down.. Then the game would have been over completely.

It's too early to tell much... But this conceding possession thing when away from home, leading to ANY defence we may play being put on the back foot must be addressed.

Finally, the fact that we HAD to score inevitably places more pressure on those strikers who get the chances. It's very likely that Vardy fluffed his late chance because he knew this.

Keep the ball better, (not only for one half), support the back four more and the strikers will be less pressurised to take their chances when they come....

[indierich06]

I've felt that we needed such a player most of last season and for some time now. I've made that clear.

Such players are not fabled.. QPR had one in Derry and then went on to romp the league. If you go to Blackburn on Saturday you'll see another in Dickson Etuhu.

West Ham had a big, strong midfielder in Nolan last year (who can also score goals). Ipswich have one in Jay Thomas. Man City have possibly the best one in Yaya Toure ( who can also score goals) and have now signed Rodwell having sold DeJong.

You're right, we didn't gain control till half time, having conceded two. There's the problem. We attacked second half because we had to and because they started to tire.

Such a player is not fabled. What's more 'fabled' IMO is your continued reluctance to even discuss where any of our problems may lie, both contemporarily and historically.

After we conceded 2, last night, it sounded like we could have easily gone 3 or 4 down.. Then the game would have been over completely.

It's too early to tell much... But this conceding possession thing when away from home, leading to ANY defence we may play being put on the back foot must be addressed.

Finally, the fact that we HAD to score inevitably places more pressure on those strikers who get the chances. It's very likely that Vardy fluffed his late chance because he knew this.

Keep the ball better, (not only for one half), support the back four more and the strikers will be less pressurised to take their chances when they come....

I was at the game - we had control of the match for the first 20 minutes before we were hit against the run of play by Bradley Wright-Phillips - this will happen to the best of teams every now and then. After this sucker punch, we lost focus and fell apart, and Kermorgant got his goal. The defence and midfield were never overrun by Charlton, a lack of focus and concentration is what cost us two goals last night. Once we refocussed, Charlton hardly had a sniff. If we play like we did in the second half for the rest of the season, we'll win a lot more games than we lose.

I don't think there are any problems with our midfield or our defence, we need to work on our mental strength more than anything. When King came on, he and Drinkwater ran the midfield, he really does look back to his best. I know you think he's too 'lightweight' but the way he finds space so easily combined with his excellent, speedy distribution and movement, he doesn't have to go toe-to-toe with opposing midfielders. I really think King and Drinkwater should be our first choice central midfield combo.

[Leicester_Numan]

I'd still like to see one in the squad, but so far, it just seems to be a case of getting the midfield personnel and the mental attitude right. In both league games, we've taken control when King came on and we went at them instead of sitting back worrying about them. Maybe it is as simple as dropping James for King, having a go and hopefully sticking a couple of chances away from the 20 odd we seem to create

[Col city fan]

I was at the game - we had control of the match for the first 20 minutes before we were hit against the run of play by Bradley Wright-Phillips - this will happen to the best of teams every now and then. After this sucker punch, we lost focus and fell apart, and Kermorgant got his goal. The defence and midfield were never overrun by Charlton, a lack of focus and concentration is what cost us two goals last night. Once we refocussed, Charlton hardly had a sniff. If we play like we did in the second half for the rest of the season, we'll win a lot more games than we lose.

I don't think there are any problems with our midfield or our defence, we need to work on our mental strength more than anything. When King came on, he and Drinkwater ran the midfield, he really does look back to his best. I know you think he's too 'lightweight' but the way he finds space so easily combined with his excellent, speedy distribution and movement, he doesn't have to go toe-to-toe with opposing midfielders. I really think King and Drinkwater should be our first choice central midfield combo.

Fair enough Rich it's all about opinions mate and I usually agree with you. I hope you're right.

The 'fell apart' thing worries me. 'Fall apart' too much away from home and we won't challenge.

[Babylon]

You're right, we didn't gain control till half time, having conceded two. There's the problem.

No we were in control until they scored also according to most.

I don't have a problem discussing it, but you weren't even there and are using a game that we actually were on top for 65 minutes away from home (again according to those there) as an example of why we are poor in midfield seem.

You've accused others of writing players off after two games and then seemingly do the same with the midfield after two games.

We attacked second half because we had to and because they started to tire.

Little comments like this I don't understand. (not particularly you but seen a few people makes comments)

On Saturday people said that they expected us to go on to win after we scored first as their heads naturally dropped and had to come out at us etc. Yet if we go a goal behind like last night people expected an improvement from us because we were a goal behind etc. It feels like people do their best to put down anything good we do by blaming the oppo for attacking us too much, or sitting back and defending.

[Col city fan]

No we were in control until they scored also according to most.

I don't have a problem discussing it, but you weren't even there and are using a game that we actually were on top for 65 minutes away from home (again according to those there) as an example of why we are poor in midfield seem.

You've accused others of writing players off after two games and then seemingly do the same with the midfield after two games.

Little comments like this I don't understand. (not particularly you but seen a few people makes comments)

On Saturday people said that they expected us to go on to win after we scored first as their heads naturally dropped and had to come out at us etc. Yet if we go a goal behind like last night people expected an improvement from us because we were a goal behind etc. It feels like people do their best to put down anything good we do by blaming the oppo for attacking us too much, or sitting back and defending.

Why do you always have to do this?

I'm not writing anyone off?

I posted over the summer about my belief that we need a bigger, tougher central midfielder. And I'm asking whether people agree or not. And also what type of player they consider James to be.

As usual, you simply distract away from the question I'm actually asking in the OP, because you refuse to discuss anything that may even be construed as negative.

It's not negative, it's a suggestion, an idea and a debate.

[Babylon]

a debate.

Ok I will join the debate when I have actually seen us play a bit more and can actually add something constructive.

[Captain...]

I think what we need more is a leader, we were successful under NP the first time without a DM, but we had Brown at the back, not the most cultured (footballing or otherwise) but he organised the defence with the help of Berner, I was hoping Morgan would be that sort of player, but he doesn't seem to marshal the defence, neither does Konchesky, at the moment we have 2 young players in the back four and they need support from their more experienced colleagues. A solid well organised back 4 doesn't need a DM in front of it, well not at this level, the midfield do win their fair share of balls, but were punished when hit on the break yesterday, but I don't see a DM as necessary as a leader to see when we are committing too many men forward, to call people back to maintain their shape.

Don't get me wrong offer me the next Neil Lennon and I would bite your hand off, but players of that quality are few and far between.

[okie fox]

Are people again going to suggest that the defence isn't good enough? Especially if we go on to lose on Saturday?

This was a comment that was made lots of times last season.... we played Mills, Bamba, Peltier, SSL. And they all seemed to struggle defensively. So much so that whatever combination was tried, none seemed to work consistently.

Now we have DeLaet, Morgan and young Moore and.... and again last night, we seemed to be overrun and looked defensively very nervy. On a positive note, this could be rectified to some extent, with the introduction of Whitbread, if he can get fit enough to play. And SSL can come back..which could make a difference.

How about this.......it could actually be that the defence itself is not the problem?

The two centre backs are responsible for marking Wright-Phillips and Kermogant so yes the defence (maybe Moore's positioning inexperience or Morgan's slowness?) must have been the problem. A defensive midfielder covers in front of the back four and tracks forward runs of their central midfielders.

[MrSpaM]

Were in for a long season if people think our defence is shit after conceeding twice in three games.

[marbelladave]

The old defensive midfielder schtick......

Try anything to get the old 4-4-2 to work.....

[Col city fan]

The old defensive midfielder schtick......

Try anything to get the old 4-4-2 to work.....

You're talking some strange stuff this morning Dave?

Why does a DM neccessitate 4-4-2?

Why not a 4-1-4-1 for instance?