Logic - Religion's mortal enemy

[Jon the Hat]

They do already, as someone from a scientific background i can safely say that a huge number of scientists hold faith very dear to them, and the Catholic church at least takes science very seriously. With each question answered, twenty more arise in its place. The real truth is that we have never been further away from understanding our own existence and how it has come to pass, and whilst this is fundamentally the case, it is simply impossible to disprove the notion of their being a supreme power to ourselves, be it in whatever form.

I am open to all sides of this argument, however I really can't be bothered to read or listen to yet more bluster from the church of militant atheism, they have become far louder, far less tolerant, and far more obnoxious than your average religious individual that its not even funny anymore, so much so that i can barely stand to listen to their insulting, self-important, god-complex, bollocks for more than five minutes anymore.

While Dawkins et al can be irritating, I don't hear them telling me how I should live my life, telling me some book which is clearly nonsense is fact, or telling me without their god I have no capability to have morals. People who participate in organised religion do so for their own reasons of course, but it always felt false and uncomfortable to me. The idea of sin feels like manipulation, and I am not down for that, preferring to take responsibilty for myself.

There will never be proof one way or the other re the existence of God, because it is a concept deliverately designed that way. Arguing with reason won't work against those who dismiss reason and bring none of their own.

[Alexikokopops]

There's something remarkably odd about militant atheist's determination to convince religious people that their God is not real.

Do these same people run around telling children that Santa isn't real, attend magic shows just to tell everyone how the tricks are done, stand outside the cinema shouting spoilers to the people queuing?

A lot of evil has been done in the name of religion but a lot of evil has been done in the name of money, too, and territory, tradition, races, fear and general bigotry. The message here is that people are going to go to war and abuse each other whether or not they have an imaginary friend to talk to when they're scared. You can combat violence and abuse in the world without having to target religion. You can promote common sense without having to attack someone's faith.

Not every religious person wants to blow up a shopping center, have creationism exclusively taught in schools or ban gay marriage. Plenty of them are just decent folk who keep their religion to themselves.

What exactly is the difference between this thread and some barmy twat standing at the clock tower shouting "don't be a sinner!" at everyone?

I'm not religious but my mother is and I'd never take it away from her. She suffers from multiple sclerosis and lives her life in a fantastic amount of pain. It's destroyed her family, her marriage, her happiness, it's taken away her mobility and it's essentially blown her mind to bits. But she genuinely feels that Jesus is numbing her pain at times and if her mind can turn that faith in to a working placebo then who am I to call it stupid?

Given how limited the medication is to put an MS sufferers' life back together I'd almost go so far as to say that church legitimately brings her more comfort than medicine these days. Not that I'd actively encourage her to abandon either for the other.

Oh Finnegan, you beautiful man. Thank you for, once again, posting how I feel much better than I ever could. I've never understand the fervour with with athiests seek to denounce religion akin to the way some religious nuts seek to spread it. It's quite ironic really.

Not that I'm religious mind.

[Jon the Hat]

Oh Finnegan, you beautiful man. Thank you for, once again, posting how I feel much better than I ever could. I've never understand the fervour with with athiests seek to denounce religion akin to the way some religious nuts seek to spread it. It's quite ironic really.

Not that I'm religious mind.

I suppose most would find militants of either side annoying & a turn off, but more so those who don't share their beliefs. Proven probably by my post above. In my view the militants provoke each other and the rest of us have to hear the arguing.

[Bryn]

This thread is a steaming pile of shite and if the OP has nothing of any greater significance in his life than to try and make himself look awfully smart by pissing on other peoples beliefs then I suggest that perhaps the analytical chemistry isn't satisfying you and perhaps you could do worse than to pick up a Bible?

[Guest]

I'd prefer it if you kept away from my bollox

I'll do that.

[Guest]

Monsters and ghosts are a fair comparison. You can't prove that they don't exist, but you can say that about everything. I've made up my mind personally in the same way i don't believe in monsters and ghosts..

Ghosts I agree with but you find monsters everywhere you look.

[1964FOX]

I can't imagine anything that would interest me less. Even on the days when my motivation is so low getting out of bed seems like too much I still think I'd have more interest in doing stuff than I would in doing that.

Don't knock it Al, a drunken ten to two bird can make a good Saturday night out even better...................................... as long as you take her to church the next day of course.

[The Doctor]

They do already, as someone from a scientific background i can safely say that a huge number of scientists hold faith very dear to them, and the Catholic church at least takes science very seriously. With each question answered, twenty more arise in its place. The real truth is that we have never been further away from understanding our own existence and how it has come to pass, and whilst this is fundamentally the case, it is simply impossible to disprove the notion of their being a supreme power to ourselves, be it in whatever form.

I am open to all sides of this argument, however I really can't be bothered to read or listen to yet more bluster from the church of militant atheism, they have become far louder, far less tolerant, and far more obnoxious than your average religious individual that its not even funny anymore, so much so that i can barely stand to listen to their insulting, self-important, god-complex, bollocks for more than five minutes anymore.

I've never really got this whole idea of "militant atheism" - it seems to me it puts critising religion on the same level as shooting a child in the back of the head for trying to learn by labelling them both as militant, which is a frankly ludicrous idea. When atheists have gone to the same level as killing doctors for performing abortions, flying planes into towers, burning women at the stake, torturing people who don't agree with them etc. then I might take this whole militant idea seriously, as it is...

[Charl91]

I don't believe in any religion. I have no problem if other people want to be religious though, as long as it doesn't affect me too much. I do wonder how people can believe in religion though - not a God per se, I think that's more logical, but the religion itself. Looking at the specifics of all the religions that I know about, they all seem very farfetched.

I also don't believe that a God exists. However, I would never say that I am 100% sure that there is no God, since we can't prove that.

[Guest]

Belief is a strong emotion. It doesn't matter whether it is founded in fallacy as most beliefs are.

[James.]

There's something remarkably odd about militant atheist's determination to convince religious people that their God is not real.

Do these same people run around telling children that Santa isn't real, attend magic shows just to tell everyone how the tricks are done, stand outside the cinema shouting spoilers to the people queuing?

A lot of evil has been done in the name of religion but a lot of evil has been done in the name of money, too, and territory, tradition, races, fear and general bigotry. The message here is that people are going to go to war and abuse each other whether or not they have an imaginary friend to talk to when they're scared. You can combat violence and abuse in the world without having to target religion. You can promote common sense without having to attack someone's faith.

Not every religious person wants to blow up a shopping center, have creationism exclusively taught in schools or ban gay marriage. Plenty of them are just decent folk who keep their religion to themselves.

What exactly is the difference between this thread and some barmy twat standing at the clock tower shouting "don't be a sinner!" at everyone?

I'm not religious but my mother is and I'd never take it away from her. She suffers from multiple sclerosis and lives her life in a fantastic amount of pain. It's destroyed her family, her marriage, her happiness, it's taken away her mobility and it's essentially blown her mind to bits. But she genuinely feels that Jesus is numbing her pain at times and if her mind can turn that faith in to a working placebo then who am I to call it stupid?

Given how limited the medication is to put an MS sufferers' life back together I'd almost go so far as to say that church legitimately brings her more comfort than medicine these days. Not that I'd actively encourage her to abandon either for the other.

Brilliant post.

I'm not religious but I've seen first hand the strength that religion can provide people who have very little else. The OP should try going to India or Africa and tell people who live their lives in abject poverty that their God is a load of shit. For some it's all they have and gives them the strength to get through each day.

Anyway not too interested in debating it, just found the original post arrogant, self righteous and largely insufferable.

[Zingari]

While Dawkins et al can be irritating, I don't hear them telling me how I should live my life, telling me some book which is clearly nonsense is fact, or telling me without their god I have no capability to have morals. People who participate in organised religion do so for their own reasons of course, but it always felt false and uncomfortable to me. The idea of sin feels like manipulation, and I am not down for that, preferring to take responsibilty for myself.

There will never be proof one way or the other re the existence of God, because it is a concept deliverately designed that way. Arguing with reason won't work against those who dismiss reason and bring none of their own.

Quite so Jon, this point should never be forgotten or underestimated .

Actually your concise post sums up the whole issue neatly in a nutshell !

[Webbo]

Didn't Dawkins run a campaign telling people not to bring up their children in a religion?

[Zingari]

Didn't Dawkins run a campaign telling people not to bring up their children in a religion?

Do you mean he didn't want children indoctrinated when they were too young to think for themselves ?

[Webbo]

Do you mean he didn't want children indoctrinated when they were too young to think for themselves ?

They won't always be too young.

If a husband and wife are regular church goers then what do they do with their child while they're at church? How do they explain to their child when they ask the normal childhood questions about why we're here?What's wrong with bringing up your own child anyway you see fit?

Whatever way you describe it he's telling people how to live their lives.

[Zingari]

They won't always be too young.

If a husband and wife are regular church goers then what do they do with their child while they're at church? How do they explain to their child when they ask the normal childhood questions about why we're here?What's wrong with bringing up your own child anyway you see fit?

Whatever way you describe it he's telling people how to live their lives.

Yes point taken, and I'm going to take a step back here and say atheists don't always have to believe what other atheists believe , even if it's Dawkins

[Webbo]

Yes point taken, and I'm going to take a step back here and say atheists don't always have to believe what other atheists believe , even if it's Dawkins

Hey, I don't believe in God either, I just don't like the way people who do are needlessly attacked( I not accusing you of doing that btw).

[Zingari]

Hey, I don't believe in God either, I just don't like the way people who do are needlessly attacked( I not accusing you of doing that btw).

i know I don't like it either as I come from a large catholic family and I've got less militant about the evils of religion now especially in western society as I see it as pretty much a spent force .

Actually I'm feeling more uneasy about "politicized science" now which seems to be the new controlling force in society that used to belong to the religious hierarchy .

I'm not sure if this is just my suspicious conspiratorial nature though

[Guest]

Do you mean he didn't want children indoctrinated when they were too young to think for themselves ?

Wouldn't it also be indoctrination to tell them there wasn't a God?

[21st Century Fox]

Wouldn't it also be indoctrination to tell them there wasn't a God?

[Zingari]

Wouldn't it also be indoctrination to tell them there wasn't a God?

Yes i suppose it would

Maybe the best way is not to say anything about it at all and see if the child comes to any conclusion about whether or not a god exists without any influence for or against.

[Guest]

Yes i suppose it would

Maybe the best way is not to say anything about it at all and see if the child comes to any conclusion about whether or not a god exists without any influence for or against.

Maybe.

Though we wouldn't do this with the rest of their education would we? Especially as parents.

[Guest]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with Dawkins. I think for myself and I hope that I help all of my children and students to think for themselves.

However continually telling someone there is no God (especially without proof) IS indoctrination.

I also disagree with several of his points but then he is an extremist - the type that he rails against.

Even the point of being able to turn water into wine is scientifically possible once we understand how to manipulate molecules at a nano level.

[Zingari]

Maybe.

Though we wouldn't do this with the rest of their education would we? Especially as parents.

No but we weren't talking about education based on known facts , we were talking about indoctrination of there either being or not being a god .

Actually I really don't care what anyone believes as long they don't try to make laws , rules . moral codes etc. for me and the rest of society based on these beliefs .

Jon the Hat a few posts back( post 51) pretty much sums up in one sentence how I feel about it

[Jon the Hat]

Dawkins current series is interesting, in that rather than blather on getting more and more irate with people who are not listening to him, he actually does something positive, and examines morality in society where religion is having less and less influence. One of the scariest things about organised religion for me is the power it gives to individuals, and the way they can abuse it. This is not exclusively a religion issue though, as the Catholic Church seems to have the same child abuse issues as the Boy Scouts of America, and to a lesser extent even the BBC seems to have this issue of people in a position of trust and power abusing it. When anyone becomes too strong to challenge you are creating a position where morality can be compromised. As people expose themselves less blindly to assuming these people have their best interests at heart, the power goes away and people are subjected to much more scrutiny. The irony is that religion while in many ways promoting a moral code, can also act as a mask for those who abuse.