Logic - Religion's mortal enemy

[The Doctor]

Then why is it called the THEORY of Evolution?

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." It is the most reliable and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge - to shout out they whole "it's just a theory" line is to show great ignorance as to what a theory is.

[Raw Dykes]

Then why is it called the THEORY of Evolution?

A lot of people make this error. The word theory doesn't mean the same thing to scientists as it does to laypeople. In science, a theory is the ultimate.

"Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,^[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative." - Wikipedia

Gravity is just as much a theory as evolution. Think of it this way, if you can disprove evolution, you've got a sure-fire Nobel prize and world fame on your hands.

and unless anyone was there the supposed billions of years ago to collect the actual evidence we can from pond algae,( i think its claimed) then how can anyone know for SURE? It remains someones opinion. its a belief. Besides there are many debates within the scientific community over it isnt universally agreed that the theory of Evolution explains our existance.. there are molecular geneticists, physicists, geologists, Space Physicists, Geophysicists, biologists, microbiologists, theoretical chemists,plant physiologists, palaentologists, alanytical chemists, biocemists.. you name it just about every scientific speciality has people who believe in a supreme creator.

I'm sure there are plenty of scientists who believe in a supreme creator (although they are a minority). However, I strongly doubt you'll find any well-regarded scientists of any description who don't accept evolution to be true. I just don't think it's true that there are any, let alone many, debates within the scientific community over the validity of evolution. I'm very interested in this subject, and I've never seen one debate between scientists over this.

Why do you think you need to see something for yourself to know that it exists/happened? I've never been to Australia, but I know it exists. I'm pretty sure you weren't there when Einstein died, but you must know that event occured.

Evolution is not an opinion or a belief. The reason being all the mountains of evidence in support of it. The evidence is what makes it worthwhile. We are apes. We are related to all other life on Earth.

A creator is illogical to you... Evolution is illogical to me.

How is a creator logical when trying to solve the problem of the origin of life? Even if it turned out to be true, you've solved nothing. Where did the creator come from? Could you please explain what about evolution is illogical to you?

these supposed gases that caused the alleged big bang... where did they come from? to me its illogical that gases that have no origin ( no one can seem to explain where they came from) can be the start of our known universe.... , so that is my example that something thats illogical to one can seem logical to another...

I can't say I know very much at all about the big bang theory, but I've never heard of it having any mention of gases exploding. What gases? We know that the universe is expanding, and that the rate of expansion is increasing. The theory says that all matter in the universe was once condensed into a single point. Where did you get this gas thing from?

I have no desire to enter into yet another foxes talk debate/ thread on religion/ creationism/ Evolution.. my intention was simply to explain to people that it is my opinion that logic is relative to your belief... so i'll bow out now.. the problem with Foxestalk 'discussions' is that they often get very personal and rude... so... if anyone would really like to discuss it then they are welcome to email me about it i'd be happy to discuss things politely with people... i just know that like i said discussions here can soon spiral into a mudslinging competition... Now i have been guilty of it in the past and im not pointing the finger at any one specific in here... I Dont like that i have .. i'm certainly no one special... so im just going to bow out and let the thread go wherever anyone wants to take it..

Whether you reply to this or not is your own prerogative, and I don't want to get personal and start slagging anyone off. I just want to argue points that are demonstrably wrong.

[Rincewind]

Our family had a little discussion on this the other night. My sister-in-law came out with something that I agree with. She said that the only thing she praises is Mother Nature. As Douglas Adams said (?) why look for fairies at the bottom of the garden is it not wonderful on its own?

Also the was a program on the other night with Darren Brown the illusionist. It dealt with placebo and how placing a thought in someones head that a sugar pill can cure a phobia. I t reminded me of somebody that I know. He has said to me he found God after going through a tough time in his life. He has said praying helped him get through it. I have maintained that it was not some magical invisible friend that got him thjrough his problems but himself. The strength to get through was always there but he needed an excuse and help. His belief enabled him to fight that little bit harder and get through.

Some people may not want to admit or have the confidence to admit that they are a better person than they are.

Religion is a drug. The most addictive dangerous drug around. It can change the way you see other people. It can make you turn against others.

Why argue how the universe got here it is too full of splendour and arguing may mean you miss something. If you want to argue against the Big Bang just call it God. It is just a couple of words that was put forward to explain it. But it was not big and there was no sound so saying there was a God moment would do just as well and satisfy everyone. I'm sure the Adam and Eve story is not so fervently believed now with the talking snake and all the incest going on..

[flowwolf]

I'm not religious myself but I would like to know what the scientific world has to say about the human fear of death. I think the fear of death is a prime mover in humans inventing a God in the first place and linked with wanting to know what life is about if anything.

It is inborn in us to question existence and to stay alive, who, what or why put that into us ? How do our bodies repair it's self without us having any conscious thoughts on the matter . Why do we have feelings of love and hate. The need to have sex to procreate or just for fun is a prime mover in most adults , someone or something has instilled those emotions in us.

If there is no God or reason for existence what is the point of going on we may as well all kill ourselves and cut out the middle man ( life ). If there is a scientific reason for us existing I would take great comfort in that reason and then we could confine religion to the rubbish bin of history and enjoy what time we have living. So could the scientific world actually come up with explanations or not ?

Yours worried too fvck of Leicester.

[purpleronnie]

I'm not religious myself but I would like to know what the scientific world has to say about the human fear of death. I think the fear of death is a prime mover in humans inventing a God in the first place and linked with wanting to know what life is about if anything.

It is inborn in us to question existence and to stay alive, who, what or why put that into us ? How do our bodies repair it's self without us having any conscious thoughts on the matter . Why do we have feelings of love and hate. The need to have sex to procreate or just for fun is a prime mover in most adults , someone or something has instilled those emotions in us.

If there is no God or reason for existence what is the point of going on we may as well all kill ourselves and cut out the middle man ( life ). If there is a scientific reason for us existing I would take great comfort in that reason and then we could confine religion to the rubbish bin of history and enjoy what time we have living. So could the scientific world actually come up with explanations or not ?

Yours worried too fvck of Leicester.

Like I said I'm unsure whether god exists or not but my answer would be its rather childish to give someone else the responsibility to give your life meaning, the world is full of wonder and joy, the love of ones family, friends...even if god exists, surely theres every reason to live.

[flowwolf]

Like I said I'm unsure whether god exists or not but my answer would be its rather childish to give someone else the responsibility to give your life meaning, the world is full of wonder and joy, the love of ones family, friends...even if god exists, surely theres every reason to live.

But that still does not explain the reason for life. Many people go through life in nothing but poverty, misery , starvation and decease, to them the world is anything but wonder and joy and yet they are programmed to cling on to life no matter how shit it is. Not much if any reason to live, but the fear of death is stronger. Which brings us to another human trait hope where does that come from despite all logic telling them there is none ?

[purpleronnie]

But that still does not explain the reason for life. Many people go through life in nothing but poverty, misery , starvation and decease, to them the world is anything but wonder and joy and yet they are programmed to cling on to life no matter how shit it is. Not much if any reason to live, but the fear of death is stronger. Which brings us to another human trait hope where does that come from despite all logic telling them there is none ?

That's true and lots of them don't believe in god either but they still want to live.

[flowwolf]

That's true and lots of them don't believe in god either but they still want to live.

That's what I mean Ronnie we cannot exist by logic alone. We are not programmed that way, where have our emotions come from , love, hate, fear , empathy with fellow human beings our love of animals , music to name a few. To my mind those emotions alone tell us of a greater being , perhaps not the image most people have in mind as god but a belief in something else other than pure logic.

[The Doctor]

I'm not religious myself but I would like to know what the scientific world has to say about the human fear of death. I think the fear of death is a prime mover in humans inventing a God in the first place and linked with wanting to know what life is about if anything.

The fear of the unknown and the fear of pain - both of which exist to keep us alive. They've just been extended because, well, dying could well be painful (indeed prior to the advent of modern medicine it almost certainly was in most cases) and what do we know less about than what happens after death? There's absolutely no way of finding out since necromancy is impossible.

It is inborn in us to question existence and to stay alive, who, what or why put that into us ? How do our bodies repair it's self without us having any conscious thoughts on the matter . Why do we have feelings of love and hate. The need to have sex to procreate or just for fun is a prime mover in most adults , someone or something has instilled those emotions in us.

We question existence because of the lengths we've come, we've eliminated all natural predators and pretty much bent nature to our whims - there is no fight for survival anymore. Combine that with the inquisitive nature of humanity and the highly developed brains and we can see wonder throughout totality, and immediately wonder how and why that is.

As for staying alive, simply the need to reproduce and keep our DNA going into the future. That's all we are really - a protection mechanism for DNA.

If there is no God or reason for existence what is the point of going on we may as well all kill ourselves and cut out the middle man ( life ). If there is a scientific reason for us existing I would take great comfort in that reason and then we could confine religion to the rubbish bin of history and enjoy what time we have living. So could the scientific world actually come up with explanations or not ?

The only point of life is life, to reproduce and propagate the double helix that is uniquely you throughout time. Beyond that there is no reason, no meaning - it's all there for us to choose for ourselves.

That's what I mean Ronnie we cannot exist by logic alone. We are not programmed that way, where have our emotions come from , love, hate, fear , empathy with fellow human beings our love of animals , music to name a few. To my mind those emotions alone tell us of a greater being , perhaps not the image most people have in mind as god but a belief in something else other than pure logic.

Love - Nothing more than the connection between us and someone who is genetically similar to us, which encourages us to protect them because by protecting them your genes also can propagate. Hell, kissing is nothing more than a tool to determine the similarity of someone to us and whether they'd be a good mate.

Hate - Originally something to help us compete against our rivals for the ecological niche we preside over (Homo Neanderthalensis being a prime example), but with the way we've altered the world and put ourselves on such a pedestal it instead manifests itself as an intra-species competitive mechanism - primly for resources, be it land, food, water or money.

Fear - Response to protect from harm and so keep yourself alive, it kick-starts the flight or fight reflex.

Empathy - Humans are social animals, it's born out of the need to protect the group which - prior to the massive expansion of the human race - would have been made up of children and close relatives - by which you would be protecting what is a heavy amount of your genetics.

[Smudge]

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,

A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.

And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily,

Joyfully, playfully watching me.

But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible,

Logical, responsible, practical.

And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable,

Clinical, intellectual, cynical.

[Rincewind]

That's just the way the mind and brain works. We are therefore we exist. We think therefore we know.. We know life therefore we resist death..

[Captain...]

Just to throw this in here, it is now commonly accepted in the scientific community that there was something before the big bang, (seemed logical to me).

The universe had a start point, the Big Bang, and from our limited scope of perception it is infinite, but it is not all there is, there is outside the universe and potentially many other universes, possibly in the same plane, but a different dimension, but we cannot really grasp the concept of the all, we cannot grasp infinite in the true terms of the everlasting, we believe everything must have a start and an end, because everything we can observe has.

There is an infinite an always has been and an always will be, time is just a unit of measurement, like cubic metres, if we look at geometrical shapes, 2D shapes, then they have no existing dimension in the z plane, that means it can't be measured in cubic metres, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Likewise in the higher dimensions, there are things that exist outside of time, they can't be measured by time, that is something we will always struggle to understand.

So my point is really that atheism/science is not the belief that something started from nothing, but that something started from something that we don't really know yet, that is the difference between science and religion, science knows there are gaps and tries to find the answer to fill them, religion fills the gaps with dogma and then when these gaps get filled by fact religion remains stationary denying these facts, rather than adapting to the current and modern world.

Religions will continue to be ridiculed while they refuse to accept fact and remain determined to believe in something that made sense 2000 years ago, there is room for faith and religion in this world and there may still be a creator of sorts, or higher beings existing in different planes that can influence our world...

...but this cannot be at the expense of reason and logic.

[Raw Dykes]

That's what I mean Ronnie we cannot exist by logic alone. We are not programmed that way, where have our emotions come from , love, hate, fear , empathy with fellow human beings our love of animals , music to name a few. To my mind those emotions alone tell us of a greater being , perhaps not the image most people have in mind as god but a belief in something else other than pure logic.

It might sound a bit of a cold and unattractive idea, but emotions are just a by-product of the mind's will for survival.

Love is an extension of the need to find a mate. Any species that has no desire to reproduce becomes extinct. The panda is a good example of this.

Hate is an extension of disapproval for members of a community who are unhelpful. It helps the species to reeducate or turf out any unsociable influences.

Fear is crucial for survival. Every species that experiences fear wouldn't be here today if it hadn't learnt to fear predators/danger.

Empathy within a species is helpful to the success of that species. Empathy towards other species is merely a by-product of this.

All this is not to say that these emotions are any less real. Does it really matter why we experience joy or suffering? These emotions are just as strong whether there's a god or a soul, or if it's just a chemical reaction in your brain. The idea of a greater being really is unecessary.

[flowwolf]

The fear of the unknown and the fear of pain - both of which exist to keep us alive. They've just been extended because, well, dying could well be painful (indeed prior to the advent of modern medicine it almost certainly was in most cases) and what do we know less about than what happens after death? There's absolutely no way of finding out since necromancy is impossible.

We question existence because of the lengths we've come, we've eliminated all natural predators and pretty much bent nature to our whims - there is no fight for survival anymore. Combine that with the inquisitive nature of humanity and the highly developed brains and we can see wonder throughout totality, and immediately wonder how and why that is.

As for staying alive, simply the need to reproduce and keep our DNA going into the future. That's all we are really - a protection mechanism for DNA.

The only point of life is life, to reproduce and propagate the double helix that is uniquely you throughout time. Beyond that there is no reason, no meaning - it's all there for us to choose for ourselves.

Love - Nothing more than the connection between us and someone who is genetically similar to us, which encourages us to protect them because by protecting them your genes also can propagate. Hell, kissing is nothing more than a tool to determine the similarity of someone to us and whether they'd be a good mate.

Hate - Originally something to help us compete against our rivals for the ecological niche we preside over (Homo Neanderthalensis being a prime example), but with the way we've altered the world and put ourselves on such a pedestal it instead manifests itself as an intra-species competitive mechanism - primly for resources, be it land, food, water or money.

Fear - Response to protect from harm and so keep yourself alive, it kick-starts the flight or fight reflex.

Empathy - Humans are social animals, it's born out of the need to protect the group which - prior to the massive expansion of the human race - would have been made up of children and close relatives - by which you would be protecting what is a heavy amount of your genetics.

I agree with all you said Al but you are describing the mechanics of existence not the reason why there is existence ?

[Raw Dykes]

I agree with all you said Al but you are describing the mechanics of existence not the reason why there is existence ?

I don't think there is a reason for existence. The universe does not owe us an explanation. Is it not possible that there never was a reason?

We do have the power to decide the meaning for our own lives, however. You can give your own life whatever meaning you want.

[The Doctor]

I agree with all you said Al but you are describing the mechanics of existence not the reason why there is existence ?

Who ever said there had to be a reason?

[1964FOX]

I have always been intrigued by the theory that god is simply a member of another species carrying out an experiment on creating life forms so could fulfill the prophesty of the bible and send his son back to sort out the parts of the experimentation that has gone wrong. This would explain religion in a scientific way, both being true as such a highly developed species or being clearly is a god to us mere mortals.

[Captain...]

I have always been intrigued by the theory that god is simply a member of another species carrying out an experiment on creating life forms so could fulfill the prophesty of the bible and send his son back to sort out the parts of the experimentation that has gone wrong. This would explain religion in a scientific way, both being true as such a highly developed species or being clearly is a god to us mere mortals.

There is certainly scope for there being a creator, there was an interesting article that someone posted on FT, that every civilisation will at some point try and simulate life, and there is a possibility that we are just a simulation, and that at some point we will simulate further life, thus meaning that we have gods and that we will be gods, although that is slightly off the point.

I don't think there is much likelihood the bible and its stories have anything to do with any actual god or any other religion for that matter, the prophets of that time were the wise men, the philosophers, the intellectuals, those that took what they knew of the world and made it into something connected that they could understand and explain to their peers in a way they could understand. They were the scientists of their day, but a lot of their hypothesises have been proven to be untrue, but some have been proved to be true, such as the order in which life was created, but then that could just be coincidence.

Now of course if we are an experiment, and there was divine intervention by the creator to guide our path, then I think it is fairly clear that this influence has gone, and we are either being left to our own devices deliberately or we have been forgotten about like a 6th form science project. The way religion sprung up in every corner of the globe, and the way some stories bear a striking similarity does make you wonder about such things, and how we are all connected, despite every attempt by science there are still many things left unexplained, such as the missing link between man and beast, the catalyst that took us from being animals to human beings. Whether it was something other worldly, or divine or pure chance we still don't know, we also don't really know what life is, and consciousness, there are many aspects of our brains and our "souls" that we don't fully understand. This may one day all be understood by science, but until then there will still be the possibility in my mind of other influences.

Ultimately in the grand scheme of things we still know only a little more than fvck all, and the sooner we except that the better we will all be.

On a related note Derren Brown's Fear and Faith on Friday was very good, all about the Placebo effect, and will move on to religion next week, should be interesting.

[21st Century Fox]

Personally I think Scientology is a fantastic religion. We've got a perfect example of how religions start, hyper-evolved over the space of about 60 years. Pretty much all the same principles apply to other religions, the need for an understanding, control and money but played out in the microcosm of Hollywood, perfect.

[bmt]

There is certainly scope for there being a creator, there was an interesting article that someone posted on FT, that every civilisation will at some point try and simulate life, and there is a possibility that we are just a simulation, and that at some point we will simulate further life, thus meaning that we have gods and that we will be gods, although that is slightly off the point.

I don't think there is much likelihood the bible and its stories have anything to do with any actual god or any other religion for that matter, the prophets of that time were the wise men, the philosophers, the intellectuals, those that took what they knew of the world and made it into something connected that they could understand and explain to their peers in a way they could understand. They were the scientists of their day, but a lot of their hypothesises have been proven to be untrue, but some have been proved to be true, such as the order in which life was created, but then that could just be coincidence.

Now of course if we are an experiment, and there was divine intervention by the creator to guide our path, then I think it is fairly clear that this influence has gone, and we are either being left to our own devices deliberately or we have been forgotten about like a 6th form science project. The way religion sprung up in every corner of the globe, and the way some stories bear a striking similarity does make you wonder about such things, and how we are all connected, despite every attempt by science there are still many things left unexplained, such as the missing link between man and beast, the catalyst that took us from being animals to human beings. Whether it was something other worldly, or divine or pure chance we still don't know, we also don't really know what life is, and consciousness, there are many aspects of our brains and our "souls" that we don't fully understand. This may one day all be understood by science, but until then there will still be the possibility in my mind of other influences.

Ultimately in the grand scheme of things we still know only a little more than fvck all, and the sooner we except that the better we will all be.

On a related note Derren Brown's Fear and Faith on Friday was very good, all about the Placebo effect, and will move on to religion next week, should be interesting.

Agreed with pretty much all you said except that in bold. There are plenty of things which still occur which could be attributed to a god, if we accept there is a chance one exists.

[Reynard Bleu]

You will laugh the other side of your face when the Mothership returns.

[ozleicester]

I have always been intrigued by the theory that god is simply a member of another species carrying out an experiment on creating life forms so could fulfill the prophesty of the bible and send his son back to sort out the parts of the experimentation that has gone wrong. This would explain religion in a scientific way, both being true as such a highly developed species or being clearly is a god to us mere mortals.

Its the mice! - Douglas Adams has already explained it, i dont know why there is any further discussion.

Oh and BTW... its 42

[MooseBreath]

I like the simulation universe theory but I think it's more likely that 'space' is a model created by another much more powerful species. Similar to the simulation theory, if you accept that there is probably a species capable of creating a model, then you must also accept that we are almost certainly living in such a model, of which there could be any number. Within our model life as we know it on our planet came about through evolution. I don't know whether our existence means anything to the creators of the model. Probably not. Ultimately we are only little groups of cells. Our existence is no more meaningful than the existence of any other cell, and to our creators we are probably just as insignificant as we view the single cell organisms which exist on this planet. Probably even less so. The creators surely know that life such as ours will exist within the models, but they don't care about us specifically. They may not even know we exist.

I think it's either that or, i'm dreaming.

[Guest]

lizard's spit

[Carl the Llama]

Is that a lizard of the shape-shifting, multi-dimensional, human-enslaving variety perchance?