Public Works

[Captain...]

The answer is I don't know. I'm an ideas man. I need details men around me (ooo-err) and they can thrash out the finer points. I get bored quickly so I sow the seeds, set the direction etc and rely on others to deal with detail. So the answer is I don't really know.

What do you think? Do you think my idea is workable? Even with some amendments?

 

The original public works idea yes, as long as the aim is to get people into full time work, and not used as slave labour, trying to reclaim back what has already been paid out in JSA not a chance, pretty sure it would be illegal.

 

What do you think about putting JSA and housing benefits into the hands of private companies, you can opt in, then if you are out of job you can use your private JSA insurance, or you can get down the public works centre and start giving back to society?

[Zingari]

Excellent. Then let's get it done.

 

I think probably most of those claiming are quite happy to be claiming and they simply don't like the idea of working for a living.

 

I think we owe this opportunity to those who do want some experience, something to do, some pride and self-esteem. 

 

There must be enough money about to create this opportunity to make our villages/towns and cities better places to live. Potholes filled/leaves cleared/private areas kept need and tidy/hedges kept trimmed/graffiti removed etc?

I know it creates other problem/questions etc - and maybe the range of tasks/responsibilities needs to be really properly looked at since there are already organisation carrying out some of this work - I'm just looking for something additional to do perhaps non-essential work, but work which can result in big improvements to our urban areas.

If you were made redundant by your present employer , would you be prepared to do the same job in your place of work or maybe a similar government office to "earn"  JSA ?

[absolutelegend]

This post is funny.  Going back to the original post:

 

1) I agree that it is perfectly ok to expect people to do something positive for the community in return for their benefits

2) I think it's totally unfair to expect working tax payers (many of whom are very low paid) to pay/fund people for who don't contribute anything back to society

[Captain...]

This post is funny.  Going back to the original post:

 

1) I agree that it is perfectly ok to expect people to do something positive for the community in return for their benefits

2) I think it's totally unfair to expect working tax payers (many of whom are very low paid) to pay/fund people for who don't contribute anything back to society

 

I have an issue with the second point, it's not technically tax that pays for it, it is national insurance, you don't complain when someone gets an insurance pay out from your insurance company, even though it is funded by your premiums, because you know one day that could be you. In the same way it could be you that ends up unable to find work, for whatever reason. 

 

Now if we are talking about people who have never contributed anything to society, then that is kind of different.

[Rincewind]

A big percentage of those low paid workers claim benefits. The number of part time workers has risen by 1.5 million. No contract jobs is also on the rise.

It would be unfair on the low paid workers to be replaced by workers doing their job just for JSA. Even if they did not why should there be two different pay scales for the same job? Create more jobs pay same wages.

There is nothing wrong in doing voluntary work though. One danger here is if some jobs are reclassified as voluntary meaning the employer are not paying wages or giving guarantees of work benefits.

A lot of council type work is subcontracted to agencies who pay less wages and do not pay holiday pay etc. They cannot guarantee the hours either with staff being called in when needed mainly for cover.

 

Having said all that I cannot offer a solution apart from creating more jobs.

[Zingari]

This post is funny.  Going back to the original post:

 

1) I agree that it is perfectly ok to expect people to do something positive for the community in return for their benefits

2) I think it's totally unfair to expect working tax payers (many of whom are very low paid) to pay/fund people for who don't contribute anything back to society

Should an unemployed nurse be expected to work as an unpaid care worker to justify receiving JSA . Should everyone be expected to do any work  up to their individual capabilities to get JSA ?

Or are we talking merely about being forced to do menial tasks such as street /sewer cleaning ?

Why stop at those types of jobs ?

[Rincewind]

It's because funding has been taken away from some care and nursing sectors that unemployed nurses sometimes have to do care volunteer work.

If it was not for the Lottery I would not be paid for the five hours that I do. I may do more but  can only claim for five. My editor and the co-ordinaoer do a lot more hours than they should. The co-ord said yesterday he's had one day off in the last 3/4 months and that was a BH

So even if doing volunteer work it can be a full time job.

 

Why is street cleaning looked down upon? It is just as valuable work as someone tapping on a keyboard in an office. Plus they cannot be logged onto Foxes Talk all day whilst supposed to be working.

[Captain...]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24327470

Looks like Osbourne's been reading FT, not quite sure what benefit visiting the job centre everyday will do the long term unemployed, and it is typically scant on detail, but as long as they are not just using it as a punishment, but primarily as a means to make people more employable by giving them experience of working, it could actually be a good idea.

[Alf Bentley]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24327470

Looks like Osbourne's been reading FT, not quite sure what benefit visiting the job centre everyday will do the long term unemployed, and it is typically scant on detail, but as long as they are not just using it as a punishment, but primarily as a means to make people more employable by giving them experience of working, it could actually be a good idea.

 

Tend to agree, with the further provisos that it doesn't do other people out of paid jobs and that it doesn't prevent the long-term unemployed from seeking paid work....which it might not, to be fair. Making people visit the job centre every day does sound like punishment, though during my long-ago stint on the dole (1983) I used to go there daily anyway, just in case something had come up and to pass some time.

 

How easy it would be to find treatment for people with problems (drugs, drink, literacy, mental health) is another matter. Such services are often inadequate for existing numbers....if there was then a big influx of people who'd been persuaded/compelled to seek help, would the services be available to help them? If they were - which would probably involve extra expenditure - then that would be a very good thing indeed. They could always fund it by clamping down on rich corporate tax avoiders...

[ADK]

I don't really like the idea to be honest. Talk of people being forced to do 30 hours of work for their £70 quid a week doesn't sound very good to me. I've always said that people should be paid minimum wage for work they do.

 

I'm a bit concerned about talk of "mental health" as if you can tackle mental health issues by telling someone to turn up every day or else.

[Webbo]

I'm not sure they can make this work but it'll help some people.

[Jon the Hat]

I just filled in a benefits calculator that told me if my wife and I were both unemployed and renting a house for £1000 a month I would get £25,224 a year in benefits.  Tell me, is that taxable??

[The People's Hero]

Jon, I've done similar and been sickened by the results. I've resisted the urge to recheck since we've gone from one child to three...

[ADK]

None of this will change that though.

[Jon the Hat]

None of this will change that though.

 

It pisses on the assertion that it is unfair to expect people to do 30 hours a week of community work, or to bother signing on, or to have to go on a couse.  The "oh but that makes it less than minimum wage" nonsense needs to be pointed out as just that.

[leicsmac]

Jon, I've done similar and been sickened by the results. I've resisted the urge to recheck since we've gone from one child to three...

 

 

 

But in all seriousness, as I and Moose mentioned on another thread, perhaps a scheme for lowering taxes for low earners and benefits at the same time might encourage more people back into work. Perhaps more incentives for private companies to pick up the slack too if Government is intent on cutting more public jobs. 

 

As for doing public work for benefits - it's been covered in this thread before, get them on contracts, get them working for minimum wage, then take them off all benefits and they can fend for themselves. I love the idea of mass employment - it really works.

 

Just a quick economic question for those who know more about it than I - unemployment was really high during the late 70's and throughout most of the 80's. Is there an economic model that encourages mass unemployment, and if so why?

[Jon the Hat]

 

 

But in all seriousness, as I and Moose mentioned on another thread, perhaps a scheme for lowering taxes for low earners and benefits at the same time might encourage more people back into work. Perhaps more incentives for private companies to pick up the slack too if Government is intent on cutting more public jobs. 

 

As for doing public work for benefits - it's been covered in this thread before, get them on contracts, get them working for minimum wage, then take them off all benefits and they can fend for themselves.

 

Taxes for low earners are being lowered already. See the £10k tax free threshold.

 

This is not some job creating socialist utopia, this is about making sure when jobs are created by businesses, that these people are capable of applying.  The government is not and should not be in the business of creating employment - that is the worst idea ever.

[The People's Hero]

It's not hyperbole. It genuinely sickens me.

There was a news story recently about a family in Maidstone. Ill post a link to it shortly.

[ADK]

Not really surprised to see the usual suspects here spouting bollocks.

[leicsmac]

Taxes for low earners are being lowered already. See the £10k tax free threshold.

 

This is not some job creating socialist utopia, this is about making sure when jobs are created by businesses, that these people are capable of applying.  The government is not and should not be in the business of creating employment - that is the worst idea ever.

 

And how do we do that - better education methods?

 

Agree that Government shouldn't be creating jobs directly, but they should be leaning on private business to create them. Mass unemployment creates an underclass unwilling to work, as can be seen.

 

It's not hyperbole. It genuinely sickens me.

There was a news story recently about a family in Maidstone. Ill post a link to it shortly.

 

If that sickens you, goodness only knows how you feel about those extremist loonies blowing folk up in Kenya. Honestly, I think that term is a bit strong in this particular case, though to each his own.

[Captain...]

I don't really like the idea to be honest. Talk of people being forced to do 30 hours of work for their £70 quid a week doesn't sound very good to me. I've always said that people should be paid minimum wage for work they do.

I'm a bit concerned about talk of "mental health" as if you can tackle mental health issues by telling someone to turn up every day or else.

I've not seen any talk of how many hours, or if they would have the opportunity to work more hours for more pay, providing the work is there.

I think the bit about mental health is in relation to things like literacy and other treatable barriers to employment, not the seriously mentally ill, but people off work with depression, will be given the means to tackle it with counselling, so they can get back in work, likewise someone who doesn't have the literacy skills will be taught to a level where they can be employed. At least that is how I understood it. I'm sure there is some level of it being aimed at stopping people using depression as an excuse not to work, so need to prove they're depressed or are at least getting treatment for it. Depends how they approach it.

Giving depressed out of work people free counselling to get them back on their feet.

Atos style assessments and withdrawing benefits.

Hopefully the former, based on recent history probably the latter.

[The Year Of The Fox]

It's not hyperbole. It genuinely sickens me.

There was a news story recently about a family in Maidstone. Ill post a link to it shortly.

Don't bother if it's from the DM, you'll only be ridiculed.

 

In all seriousness on paper its a great idea (just like the bedroom tax) In reality it just won't work for most. When I was on the dole for about 3 months I searched/applied for 100's of jobs (admittedly only in plumbing) It did take up most of each day. How are you supposed to apply for these jobs between the hours of 9am-5pm if you're out litter picking at that time?

 

I'd consider myself pretty employable, decent grades and whatnot, yet the job centre found me nothing at all (not even a non plumbing job) You'd end up relying on the job centre to find work on your behalf. We all know how shit those cnuts are there.

[Jon the Hat]

And how do we do that - better education methods?

 

By putting in place a system which gets them into the routine of working, develops skills, gives them self confidence, provides training in apply for jobs.  Education doesn't stop when you leave school you know.

Don't bother if it's from the DM, you'll only be ridiculed.

 

In all seriousness on paper its a great idea (just like the bedroom tax) In reality it just won't work for most. When I was on the dole for about 3 months I searched/applied for 100's of jobs (admittedly only in plumbing) It did take up most of each day. How are you supposed to apply for these jobs between the hours of 9am-5pm if you're out litter picking at that time?

 

I'd consider myself pretty employable, decent grades and whatnot, yet the job centre found me nothing at all (not even a non plumbing job) You'd end up relying on the job centre to find work on your behalf. We all know how shit those cnuts are there.

 

This is not aimed at people like you though is it?

[Captain...]

Don't bother if it's from the DM, you'll only be ridiculed.

In all seriousness on paper its a great idea (just like the bedroom tax) In reality it just won't work for most. When I was on the dole for about 3 months I searched/applied for 100's of jobs (admittedly only in plumbing) It did take up most of each day. How are you supposed to apply for these jobs between the hours of 9am-5pm if you're out litter picking at that time?

I'd consider myself pretty employable, decent grades and whatnot, yet the job centre found me nothing at all (not even a non plumbing job) You'd end up relying on the job centre to find work on your behalf. We all know how shit those cnuts are there.

Well that is another big problem the job centre is about as much use as an inflatable dart board, hopefully this will see it be more responsible for making people employable, providing training and education, rather than a provider of hoops for jumping, to catch out the unaware but ignore the career unemployed who know how to play the system.

[leicsmac]

By putting in place a system which gets them into the routine of working, develops skills, gives them self confidence, provides training in apply for jobs.  Education doesn't stop when you leave school you know.

 

 

No disagreement there - the present system is useless for stuff like that, and could do with change.

 

Edit: Also Jon, as you know a lot about this stuff, could you have a go at the question I mentioned earlier?

 

Unemployment was really high during the late 70's and throughout most of the 80's. Is there an economic model that encourages mass unemployment, and if so why?