davieG Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 The mayor of Newham in London is on a mission to make the people of his borough, which has the lowest white population in the UK, more integrated. Sir Robin Wales has brought in a range of measures to this end, but by pushing integration is he uniting people or alienating them? Sir Robin Wales says his measures are about encouraging not enforcing integration "I am very strongly of the view that if you try to segregate people into different groups and keep them separate, that is not only bad for everybody in the community, it's very bad for the particular community that you do it to," Sir Robin says when I meet him in East Ham in the heart of Newham. "Apartheid was wrong in South Africa, it would be wrong here, so keeping people separate is a bad thing." Newham in east London, which played host to the London Olympics last year, has a population of about 300,000 people. It is one of the UK's most ethnically diverse places and the white British population stands at 16.7%, the lowest in the UK. Sir Robin has been the directly elected mayor of Newham since 2002 and in that time has brought in a series of bold measures aimed at making people speak English and adopt British values. Translation cutbacks At Newham's libraries he has removed all foreign language newspapers, though he emphasises that free internet access at those libraries allows people to access information in their native languages, and he has stopped funding single community events such as a Bangladeshi or a Turkish street party. Newham yearly expenditure on translation services 2009/10 - £62,833 2010/11 - £48,113 2011/12 - £23,241 2012/13 - £19,933 "We won't support single ethnic or religious groups to do things themselves within those groups, it's not our job to support that," he says. "Our job is to support when people come together. So our grants, our government grants, will be £250 if you want to throw a street party but it must be inclusive." More controversially the council has cut most of the translation services it provides. Large documents such as public reports are no longer translated, although the council says that if a resident needs help understanding part of a large document, telephone interpreters are on hand to assist. And overall translation services have been cut by 72% in Newham since 2010. 'Draconian measures' "We have said we will only translate in those cases where it suits us - so child protection cases, paying your council tax, those sorts of things. We won't translate otherwise, you have to bring somebody in with you if you want to access anything else," Sir Robin says. The reduction in translation services is a change that has been criticised by some. Andrew Boff, leader of Greater London Authority (GLA) Conservatives, says he finds the measures very draconian: "I can understand if you are not using your translation services at a time when local authorities have to save money, but if you're actually removing them from vulnerable people who need them for ideological reasons then that starts to make you question what the values are of the people who are doing that," he says. "This is about real multicultural London, it's about respecting the differences between people, not just trying to impose sameness, in Newham they're imposing sameness, in other boroughs they value what each community brings to London and accommodates them and there is nothing wrong with that... What's happening in Newham is a big backwards step," he adds. Learning English Attending one of the citizenship ceremonies that take place every Tuesday in East Ham town hall I meet Mini and Shibu Abraham from Kerala in India. “Start QuoteAndrew BoffIn Newham they're imposing sameness, in other boroughs they value what each community brings to London and accommodates them and there is nothing wrong with that†Leader of Greater London Authority (GLA) Conservatives Mrs Abraham was recruited from Mumbai to work in East London hospitals. They live in Upton Park, a part of Newham, and they say the diversity of the area was clear as soon they arrived: "It was like we are in India or somewhere - the shops, people talking their national language," Mrs Abraham says. The couple say that in some ways this has made it easy to adapt however, Mr Abraham says, they have concerns that this does actually make integration with other communities harder: "There are people from different parts of the world coming and they are forming their own little groups, it would be much better if we could all interact." The couple admit that despite their desires it is largely Indians they spend their time with and it is this instinct that Newham's mayor wants to counter. Sir Robin insists that his measures are not about forcing people to integrate, but encouraging them to do so, and he believes that ensuring people acquire English is the absolute foundation of this: "The government slashed English language funding, which is ridiculous because that's the one thing that helps people get into work and also, lets people access the culture and all the opportunities that are here in our country... "So we support that. We're currently experimenting with a range of different ways of providing cheap or free English language, but what we do is provide free English language teaching to anybody that wants to work." Unique experiment Whether you agree or disagree with the tactics, officials from other ethnically diverse parts of the UK are watching what happens in Newham with great interest. The Abraham family from India say they have found it difficult to mix with other nationalities in Newham Max Wind-Cowie is head of the integration programme at the think-tank Demos and says because Newham is so unique Sir Robin has been able to bring in more controversial measures than other politicians may dare: "Newham benefits from being incredibly genuinely diverse. There's no single population that dominates the political landscape or the resource landscape. Instead what they have are people from almost every ethnic group that exists in the UK. "What that means is politically Sir Robin and Newham council are able to take quite brave steps in terms of promoting integration without risking alienating huge voting-blocks who may object to what he is doing." Listen to Catrin Nye's radio documentary Naturalising Newham on Thursday 19 September 2013 at 1700 BST on BBC Asian Network and see her film on BBC Newsnight at 2230 on BBC Two.
Merging Cultures Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 Is it just me or does he look like an ugly Daniel Craig?
Vlad the Fox Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 Is it just me or does he look like an ugly Daniel Craig? Personally I think Daniel Craig looks like a handsome Robin Wales.
Jon the Hat Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 He is right that learning English is and should be a fundamental requirement.
Zingari Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 It says in the article that Newham has a white British population of 16.7 % , but Wiki says it's over 32 %. Do they just guess these figures ? How can they be so different? Population (2011 est.) • Total 310,500 • Rank 28th (of 326) • Density 22,000/sq mi (8,600/km2) • Ethnicity[1] 32.6% White British 1.1% White Irish 5.4% Other White 1.2% White & Black Caribbean 0.8% White & Black African 0.8% White & Asian 0.9% Other Mixed 12.1% Indian 8.7% Pakistani 9.0% Bangladeshi 12.7% Other Asian 6.7% Black Caribbean 12.7% Black African 1.1% Other Black 1.4% Chinese 2.4% Other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Newham
leicsmac Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 He is right that learning English is and should be a fundamental requirement. If that is the case, should it be a fundamental requirement for UK emigrants to learn the language of the country they emigrate to? Personally I think it should be encouraged in birth cases, but not a fundamental requirement.
Webbo Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 If that is the case, should it be a fundamental requirement for UK emigrants to learn the language of the country they emigrate to? Yes!
DennisNedry Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 He says that 'keeping groups seperate' is bad. Nobody enforces segregation, people just like to live with people of the same race, culture, religion etc.
DennisNedry Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 If that is the case, should it be a fundamental requirement for UK emigrants to learn the language of the country they emigrate to? Personally I think it should be encouraged in birth cases, but not a fundamental requirement. I'm OK with it not being a requirement for immigrants to learn English so long as: a) We don't have to pay for translators. b) Not being able to speak English is not an excuse to not work or to claim benefits
I am Rod Hull Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 If that is the case, should it be a fundamental requirement for UK emigrants to learn the language of the country they emigrate to? Personally I think it should be encouraged in birth cases, but not a fundamental requirement. I think you will find that the majority of white British emigrants (not returning nationals) move to English speaking countries, Aus, NZ, USA and Canada. The rest emigrate to countries such as Spain, Germany and France where English is widely spoken.
Harry - LCFC Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 He says that 'keeping groups seperate' is bad. Nobody enforces segregation, people just like to live with people of the same race, culture, religion etc. I agree with your thoughts living in groups of alike people but it becomes a problem if these groups are too separate from each other. Tensions grows unnecessarily because people are a little xenophobic in nature, it's natural to have some mistrust of what you don't understand. Yes you interact more with people who are similar but if you disassociate yourself too much from other groups then this can breed contempt. Needs to be a balance.
Guest MattP Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 If that is the case, should it be a fundamental requirement for UK emigrants to learn the language of the country they emigrate to? . It's none of our business. It's up to the country they are emigrating to.
leicsmac Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 Yes! Fair enough - I wouldn't actually have a problem with it, learning pidgin Korean was great! I'm OK with it not being a requirement for immigrants to learn English so long as: a) We don't have to pay for translators. b) Not being able to speak English is not an excuse to not work or to claim benefits All sounds pretty fair to me. I think you will find that the majority of white British emigrants (not returning nationals) move to English speaking countries, Aus, NZ, USA and Canada. True, but not all. As I've said before there are 2000-3000 Brits in South Korea alone. There's also loads in Spain, Turkey etc for retirement and the like. I do think most Brits who do go to a place where English isn't the first language to work do make an effort to learn the language, but not all - and I do actually think that not doing so fosters a certain amount of tension and segregates communities. I've seen that first hand. I still wouldn't make it absolutely compulsory though - someone can do a job over here without speaking a word of English, but I would encourage it as much as possible.
Guest MattP Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 As for the original post. Good luck mate but horse/bolted springs to mind.
leicsmac Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 It's none of our business. It's up to the country they are emigrating to. True - I'm just asking in the interest of fairness across the board. I think it's a bit hypocritical to expect anyone who comes to this country to speak English to a decent standard when we have a fair few expats who can't manage a word of their countries language.
BoneDog Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 I agree with your thoughts living in groups of alike people but it becomes a problem if these groups are too separate from each other. Tensions grows unnecessarily because people are a little xenophobic in nature, it's natural to have some mistrust of what you don't understand. Yes you interact more with people who are similar but if you disassociate yourself too much from other groups then this can breed contempt. Needs to be a balance. The people who forced mass immigration on the country knew that tensions would grow. I'm sure it's been in the plans for decades.
purpleronnie Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 The people who forced mass immigration on the country knew that tensions would grow. I'm sure it's been in the plans for decades. what plans would they be?
BoneDog Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 what plans would they be? When the time is right, the touchpaper is lit, the country goes mental, and then finally, after the prophecised 'rivers of blood' and much heartbreak for the country, order arises out of the chaos with a 'firm' hand from the powers that be. That's the short explanation!
Guest MattP Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 what plans would they be? Divide and Rule I imagine. Did a good job of it as well.
leicsmac Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 Divide and Rule I imagine. Did a good job of it as well. Damn right. TPTB have been playing everyone else off against each other for years.
I am Rod Hull Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 The people who forced mass immigration on the country knew that tensions would grow. I'm sure it's been in the plans for decades. You can bet your arse its by design. The GREAT nations of North West Europe are being cleansed of their culture, religion, colour and identity and you have all been educated/brainwashed in to thinking its nothing to worry about. Too many weak uninformed folk that wave white pieces of paper around with heads buried firmly in sand.... ....and before you start to cry and have a go at me, I will not be judged by anyone on here, history will be my judge.
purpleronnie Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 I am Mr history and I judge you to be incorrect.
Jon the Hat Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 If that is the case, should it be a fundamental requirement for UK emigrants to learn the language of the country they emigrate to? Personally I think it should be encouraged in birth cases, but not a fundamental requirement. It is a fundamental requirement for integration not immigration. The English are lucky in that in a lot of countries the locals have some English.
Harry - LCFC Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 The people who forced mass immigration on the country knew that tensions would grow. I'm sure it's been in the plans for decades. It has been a bit out of control I agree. Too many culturally different people entering into communities is disruptive. Becomes less of a problem over time though as they settle in and assimilate. Often difficult for first generation migrants to adapt.
leicsmac Posted 20 September 2013 Posted 20 September 2013 You can bet your arse its by design. The GREAT nations of North West Europe are being cleansed of their culture, religion, colour and identity and you have all been educated/brainwashed in to thinking its nothing to worry about. Too many weak uninformed folk that wave white pieces of paper around with heads buried firmly in sand.... ....and before you start to cry and have a go at me, I will not be judged by anyone on here, history will be my judge. You believe what you like, fair play. You could be right, or wrong - only time is going to tell. I personally believe the era of the nation state is coming to an end, for good or for bad. Soon enough there will be problems that will affect the entire world, and we'll have to deal with them as one world or no world. It is a fundamental requirement for integration not immigration. The English are lucky in that in a lot of countries the locals have some English. This is true, so I guess the point is integration an absolute necessity?
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