Too many pupils "Failures at seven"

[Webbo]

That doesn't necessary preclude a career politician who has never taught a day in his life will know better. Devil and deep blue sea.

 

Couldn't do much worse.

England is the only country in the survey where results are going backwards - with the older cohort better than the younger.

 

[Harry - LCFC]

Couldn't do much worse.

 

 

England is the only country in the survey where results are going backwards - with the older cohort better than the younger.

 

How long has that been happening. Is it a recent thing - a year or two - or has it been going on for a while now?

[Steven]

Much earlier inevention is key for me.  We need to stop wasting time talking about the gap, and bemoaning the sucess of the better off - evidently they spend more time reading with their kids, and this makes a big difference.  This is quite pertinent in my house at the moment, as 3+ years of reading stories to my duaghter every night is paying dividends now she has started reception, she is so excited about being able to start spelling out words herself.  On the flip side, she was upset that another child got to take a reader home from school before her, so I can only imaging the upset of finding yourself left behind in these early stages.

 

What that early intervention looks like is rather more difficult!

 

I will tell you the reverse side to this story. When I started at school I could do all the three Rs as well as a five year old could as my parents had read to me and encouraged me to read, write, paint and do arithmetic.

 

When I went to school we were all given a book that was supposed to be read over the entire term. Naturally I finished it in the first week and naturally I was disappointed and bored. The teacher could not believe that I could finish the book so quickly. It was only some years later that I discovered that my teacher at the time had no idea how to handle me as I was so far ahead of everyone else. She had no idea about how to challenge me. My response now would be for her to put War and Peace in front of me and tell me to read that.

 

My point is that it takes two to tango and that all the parental encouragement a child is given has to be matched by the teachers and school on the other side. If this is not the case all that happens is that you have an under performing child and educational system.

[Zingari]

"These are Labour's children, educated under a Labour government and force-fed a diet of dumbing down and low expectations."

 

"Labour drove up standards in maths and English across our schools, evident in the huge improvements we saw in GCSE results between 1997 and 2010."

 

 

someone's telling porkies 

 

 

i was listening to a radio programme the other day about job seekers being told to dumb down their CVs because employers wouldn't be inclined to take them on.

One lady said she had been penalised by the social security for refusing to do so. 

 

 What sort of incentive is that?

[Rincewind]

 

"These are Labour's children, educated under a Labour government and force-fed a diet of dumbing down and low expectations."

 

"Labour drove up standards in maths and English across our schools, evident in the huge improvements we saw in GCSE results between 1997 and 2010."

 

 

someone's telling porkies 

 

 

i was listening to a radio programme the other day about job seekers being told to dumb down their CVs because employers wouldn't be inclined to take them on.

One lady said she had been penalised by the social security for refusing to do so. 

 

 What sort of incentive is that?

 

I'm waiting for the Mail to go with that story before I believe it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sound of fingers tapping.

[Zingari]

Jobcentre staff have advised university graduates to "dumb down" their CVs in order to find work, a survey has suggested.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19006651

[Webbo]

How long has that been happening. Is it a recent thing - a year or two - or has it been going on for a while now?

The young adults tested were between the ages of 16-24 meaning that they had all or most of their education under Labour, with smaller class sizes, higher pay for teachers and brand spanking new schools and yet outcomes are going backwards. 

 

Now I'm not saying it all started in 1997 but it hasn't improved since.

[Webbo]

 

"These are Labour's children, educated under a Labour government and force-fed a diet of dumbing down and low expectations."

 

"Labour drove up standards in maths and English across our schools, evident in the huge improvements we saw in GCSE results between 1997 and 2010."

 

 

someone's telling porkies 

 

 

GCSE results are controlled by the govt. The OECD is an international body with no axe to grind. I know who I believe.

[Zingari]

GCSE results are controlled by the govt. The OECD is an international body with no axe to grind. I know who I believe.

But the other report says that children were falling behind at the age of 7 and this had the effect of dragging down their subsequent education  , so this puts the initial failure in the hands of the last Tory government.

 

I just think its another case of both parties kicking  this particular football around for silly point scoring .

[Webbo]

But the other report says that children were falling behind at the age of 7 and this had the effect of dragging down their subsequent education  , so this puts the initial failure in the hands of the last Tory government.

 

I just think its another case of both parties kicking  this particular football around for silly point scoring .

Can we agree that the GCSE results improving every year under Labour was as a result of grade inflation rather than an actual improvement though, as this survey suggests?

[Zingari]

Can we agree that the GCSE results improving every year under Labour was as a result of grade inflation rather than an actual improvement though, as this survey suggests?

yeah 

 

edit ; can we agree all parties pretty much juggle figures to embellish their achievements ?

[AoWW]

Maybe it's different where you live, but at my daughter's school (in Leicester) kids ARE put in groups according to their ability/needs (within their year group, admittedly) for Maths & Reading/Writing...from age 7, if I remember correctly.

 

As Jon correctly points out, though, even at a young age kids are very aware of their "status" at Maths, English etc. A couple of years back (age 7?), my daughter was put down by a group in Maths as the school felt she'd benefit from taking it a bit more slowly at the time - and she was absolutely distraught, seeing herself as a failure, even though she was doing absolutely fine. I imagine that would be worse for a kid who, say, found themselves doing English with kids 2 years younger...

 

I'm sure one thing kids need is less stress/competition, fewer targets etc. (targets are recorded in the kids' work books at our daughter's school - isn't it enough for the teacher to keep records?).

 

Kids 40 years ago (as I was) were aware of who were the "clever ones at sums" or "no good at spelling", but it seemed less of an issue, somehow. The fact that you now have primary school kids being tutored for, or worrying about SATS tests (which are supposed to assess the teachers, not the kids) is an absolute obscenity!

 

As far as Ofsted are concerned, no, sadly it isn't enough for the teacher to have a record. Kids are expected to be able to say what level they're working at, what level they're supposed to achieve by the end of the school year, and what their targets are that will enable them to make that progress.

[Alf Bentley]

As far as Ofsted are concerned, no, sadly it isn't enough for the teacher to have a record. Kids are expected to be able to say what level they're working at, what level they're supposed to achieve by the end of the school year, and what their targets are that will enable them to make that progress.

 

From an outsider's perspective, as a parent, the whole OFSTED/testing/measuring/controlling thing seems to be a nightmare and detrimental for everyone. Clearly, there needs to be some sort of control body to identify failing schools, but it often seems that schools exist to be controlled/measured, not to educate children. As a comparison with a business, it's as if a company got rid of its strategic management, product design office, R&D and training departments - and handed everything over to the accountants. Accountants are necessary, like the stabilisers of a toddler's bicycle, but they are not the pedals or the handlebars....

 

The convoluted remote micro-management that goes on in primary schools gives me a headache - and I'm just seeing it from the outside. Lists of dozens of individual task targets in each main subject area (to be notified to different children, then achieved and recorded at different times, given different rates of progress), levels to be assessed and recorded (levels that do not correlate to age or year group or progress evenly, making them incomprehensible to most parents), the fear of Ofsted assessments, the quest to qualify for ever more quality certificates etc. It all seems to be a recipe for central government control freakery (apparently to satisfy parents, but does it?)...but also a recipe for stress for many children, teachers and parents.

 

In the meantime, how much freedom does it allow good teachers to exercise their skills and teach? Very little, it seems. My childhood memories of being motivated to learn involved stimulating experiences, not targets, grind and stress.

 

The Blair government must take a lot of the flak for this miserable situation. OFSTED really started under Major, but it was Blair, slavering after the support of anxious, Daily Mail-reading parents, who picked up the baton and really ran with it. Now, it seems to be a poisonous pact between government, parents and media, damaging education, damaging teaching, damaging children and creating stress for all....to no useful end whatsoever.

 

Remote micro-management and concentration on measurement, not education, may be the single largest cause of failure in our education system.

 

A separate point (and I might be quite mistaken here): I was trying to make sense of the OECD league tables comparing numeracy/literacy in different countries and was struggling to see a pattern (apart from E. Asia doing well - but I know that comes with a lot of personal/social stress, given their pressurised learning methods). Then, I thought: USA, UK, Spain & Italy down at the bottom, Scandinavia and the Low Countries doing well....isn't that also countries with large wealth/income disparities doing badly and those with greater equality doing well?

[ACF]

Surely parents, not the kids, should be informed about the objectives/learning outcomes for the year. Maybe it will push parents to provide the necessary help for the kids.

 

I have a great respect for what teachers do, however learning being micromanaged is wrong. Cater for the kids needs, rather than what the Government wants.

[Finnaldo]

Not sure if its been mentioned yet but don't alot of areas in Europe start aged 6/7?

And seeing as we're going backwards, I'd imagine that it could be linked to too much stress at an earlier age. Personally, I see no reason for targets, surely we'd be better without targets and should focus on just educating children to a decent standard of literature and arithmetic before exams kick in?

[Vlad the Fox]

Not sure if its been mentioned yet but don't alot of areas in Europe start aged 6/7?

And seeing as we're going backwards, I'd imagine that it could be linked to too much stress at an earlier age. Personally, I see no reason for targets, surely we'd be better without targets and should focus on just educating children to a decent standard of literature and arithmetic before exams kick in?

This. I went to my children's school recently for a meeting with the parents on phonics, and reading and writing skills and how to help your child improve amongst other things. One of the things I got from the teachers was the interference from the government with initiatives and tests left right and centre. You got the impression that they were spending a lot of time preparing these kids for tests rather than teaching the things they should have been. There should be an independent body set up for education rather than be left to a unqualified career politician with his government's idiocy dictating and who will be out the job in a few years.

[Rincewind]

The same MP could be Minister of Housing next year. No wonder the country is in a mess.

[Guest MattP]

The same MP could be Minister of Housing next year. No wonder the country is in a mess.

 

Gove is the next Conservative leader.

 

His intelligence astounds most people in the media and the party, an incredible mind and it always helps to have a Conservative who has a background like his for the general public to look at.

[Zingari]

Gove is the next Conservative leader.

 

His intelligence astounds most people in the media and the party, an incredible mind and it always helps to have a Conservative who has a background like his for the general public to look at.

Interesting that you've not said the next  Prime Minister

 

Didn't they used to say the same thing about David "two brains" Willetts ?

[Webbo]

Gove is the next Conservative leader.

 

I don't think he's got the looks or the charisma ,shallow I know but important these days. I'm still hoping David Davies will get it some day but that ship has probably sailed.

[Guest MattP]

Interesting that you've not said the next  Prime Minister

 

Didn't they used to say the same thing about David "two brains" Willetts ?

 

Of course, I can see a lot of 5 year terms now, people are more impatient and with the deficit and cuts that will go with any government people will be continually annoyed.

 

I don't think he's got the looks or the charisma ,shallow I know but important these days. I'm still hoping David Davies will get it some day but that ship has probably sailed.

 

Could be right there, only thing stopping him.

[Strokes]

Of course, I can see a lot of 5 year terms now, people are more impatient and with the deficit and cuts that will go with any government people will be continually annoyed.

Could be right there, only thing stopping him.

Do you not think they will go for boris?

I would love to see him at the helm, for comedy purposes. Politics needs comedy.

[Zingari]

I don't think he's got the looks or the charisma ,shallow I know but important these days. I'm still hoping David Davies will get it some day but that ship has probably sailed.

I've been thinking this is becoming more and more important for political success these days.

 

And Mattp , thanks for drawing my attention to Gove's  life and background , he is sure much more interesting than at face value .   

 

Edit;

I still think Hague could return as leader ,He got there too early imo 

[Guest MattP]

Do you not think they will go for boris?

I would love to see him at the helm, for comedy purposes. Politics needs comedy.

 

Think it's a three way fight between those two and May. A woman might even be the way to go this time. It would be a sure fire winner.

 

I've been thinking this is becoming more and more important for political success these days.

 

And Mattp , thanks for drawing my attention to Gove's  life and background , he is sure much more interesting than at face value .   

 

Edit;

I still think Hague could return as leader ,He got there too early imo 

 

Bald people can't get power anymore, we live a baldist society.

 

He's had a very interesting life hasn't he? Can't be many adoptees in Aberdeen who were the sons of Labour activits that ended up leading the Conservatives.

[Zingari]

Think it's a three way fight between those two and May. A woman might even be the way to go this time. It would be a sure fire winner.

 

 

Bald people can't get power anymore, we live a baldist society.

 

He's had a very interesting life hasn't he? Can't be many adoptees in Aberdeen who were the sons of Labour activits that ended up leading the Conservatives.

Yes quite so , it seems a very unlikely place and environment .

 

But loads of tory  MPs probably don't know who their dads are , if you catch my drift

 

 

 

 

Actually this scurrilous charge probably applies to other politicians too