Victim's mother wants drugs legalized.

[Steven]

You say it's not working - what do you have to compare it against?

How do you know how many lives will be lost if we legalised class A drugs such as this in comparison?

 

I'm intrigued...

I compare it against itself. The intention is to prevent drug use and yet we have drug gangs, violence associated with the circumvention of the drug laws, laws affecting ordinary people because of the "war on drugs", needless expenditure fighting that "war" and we have people still dying from drugs.

[Houdini Logic]

I compare it against itself. The intention is to prevent drug use and yet we have drug gangs, violence associated with the circumvention of the drug laws, laws affecting ordinary people because of the "war on drugs", needless expenditure fighting that "war" and we have people still dying from drugs.

 

Those things won't neccessarily go away with legalisation but I'll put that aside for now as I don't want to get dragged into your tangent.

 

So I believe 8 people on average die each year after taking ecstacy. I believe that will increase if it was legalised. Do you disagree? Simple answer would be fine at this point...

[Captain...]

Will legalising them stop any black marketing of impure or danderous versions. No doubt any legalised drug like cigarettes would be taxed to the hilt to discourage users leaving a gap in the market like alcohol for dangerous cheaper alternatives that many will find attractive.

 

Potentially increasing their use and the impact  a lot more drug influnenced people might have on everyday life I'm not convinced it solves the problem

 

Depends, black market trade of drugs won't stop, like alcohol or tobacco, but even on the black market you would be able to buy drugs that have been manufactured in a regulated and controlled way. The black market would just be getting around tax laws.

 

It is a very tricky subject, for regular recreational drug users, I am sure they would happily pay more to guarantee safety and quality of drug, the fact is if manufactured in efficient and regulated ways they could easily cut the production costs of drug making and undercut the black market, whilst still heavily taxing the drugs and eliminating the criminal element.

 

Personally, I mainly stayed away from pills when I was younger as I didn't trust the source, had they been regulated and available to buy in shops, then it would have been a different matter and I probably would have been more inclined to experiment, so legalising it would encourage use, or at least remove some of the reasons people don't try it.

 

Where do we stop? Ecstacy, Speed, MDMA, Canabis, Alcohol, Heroin, coke? Do we legalise all and let the free markets and natural selection do the rest?

 

The truth is it doesn't matter what the law is, many people will take drugs and people will die, legalising won't stop that from happening, see alcohol, the assessment we need to have is what is better for the people of this country to have access to safe controlled drugs, or to be protected from them.

[Rincewind]

Because she has a greater perspective and understanding on it than you

Exactly. She has been there and will be able to feel empathy when it happens to others instead of looking in from outside.

[Steven]

Those things won't neccessarily go away with legalisation but I'll put that aside for now as I don't want to get dragged into your tangent.

 

So I believe 8 people on average die each year after taking ecstacy. I believe that will increase if it was legalised. Do you disagree? Simple answer would be fine at this point...

No.

[Houdini Logic]

No.

 

So why would you possibly want to legalise it knowing that more people will die? Even if it's one person - surely that makes it not worth it?

[The God Emperor]

So why would you possibly want to legalise it knowing that more people will die? Even if it's one person - surely that makes it not worth it?

one more person may die taking ecstasy, but drug prohibition effects more people than just the user. I have a lot less sympathy for the people who die by voluntarily taking a known dangerous substance than I do for the people who live in places like columbia, mexico and even parts of the UK who's lives are made hell by no fault of their own, but by the drug cartels that exist due to drug prohibition.

Drug prohibition also makes drugs artificially expensive as well as more dangerous, so when people are hooked and can't afford their expensive habit they start to brew even more dangerous moonshine drugs.

The more dangerous drugs that exist today where made as a reaction to prohibition, making them stronger in smaller doses so they are easier to carry, making them look like more innocent products, making them easier to mix with other substances and making them more addictive.

If drugs were made legal and were traded on the market those producing them would have an incentive to make them safer. Killing and ruining the lives of your customer's is not a good way to become successful. 

Ending prohibition will not create utopia, but it will be a lot better than what we have now. People should be treated like adults, if they are willing to be held responsible for their actions and pay for any medical procedures they will require after using, then let them. I don't condone the use of drugs and think people who take them are foolish but it isn't my place to tell people what they can and can't put into their own bodies. 

 

well that's a rehash of everything I said in the previous drugs thread 

[Houdini Logic]

one more person may die taking ecstasy, but drug prohibition effects more people than just the user. I have a lot less sympathy for the people who die by voluntarily taking a known dangerous substance than I do for the people who live in places like columbia, mexico and even parts of the UK who's lives are made hell by no fault of their own, but by the drug cartels that exist due to drug prohibition.

Drug prohibition also makes drugs artificially expensive as well as more dangerous, so when people are hooked and can't afford their expensive habit they start to brew even more dangerous moonshine drugs.

The more dangerous drugs that exist today where made as a reaction to prohibition, making them stronger in smaller doses so they are easier to carry, making them look like more innocent products, making them easier to mix with other substances and making them more addictive.

If drugs were made legal and were traded on the market those producing them would have an incentive to make them safer. Killing and ruining the lives of your customer's is not a good way to become successful. 

Ending prohibition will not create utopia, but it will be a lot better than what we have now. People should be treated like adults, if they are willing to be held responsible for their actions and pay for any medical procedures they will require after using, then let them. I don't condone the use of drugs and think people who take them are foolish but it isn't my place to tell people what they can and can't put into their own bodies. 

 

well that's a rehash of everything I said in the previous drugs thread 

 

So you think the black market drug trade would disappear with legalisation? That's odd seeing as you identify that it's actually stronger, more dangerous substances that they sell so there would still be a need for these drugs and nothing would change. I completely agree that it makes people's lives hell but I'm not short sighted enough to think the right and only way to tackle it is by legalising drugs.

 

I also find it interesting you have limited sympathy for people who take known dangerous substance, yet in the same breath are wanting to legalise drugs? Even if the legalised drugs are less dangerous inevitably people would still die. You wouldn't have sympathy for these people? Or people would use the legal version as a stepping stone to the aforementioned stonger and more dangerous drugs, making the black market, and all of the people's lives that is ruins, even more powerful!

 

Playing with fire on the grandest of scales.

[Steven]

So why would you possibly want to legalise it knowing that more people will die? Even if it's one person - surely that makes it not worth it?

I was responding to part one of your question. Besides life is not quite black and white as you portray it. The only thing I am certain about is that the current regime is not working and may yet contribute to a worsening to the current situation.

[Steven]

So you think the black market drug trade would disappear with legalisation? That's odd seeing as you identify that it's actually stronger, more dangerous substances that they sell so there would still be a need for these drugs and nothing would change. I completely agree that it makes people's lives hell but I'm not short sighted enough to think the right and only way to tackle it is by legalising drugs.

 

I also find it interesting you have limited sympathy for people who take known dangerous substance, yet in the same breath are wanting to legalise drugs? Even if the legalised drugs are less dangerous inevitably people would still die. You wouldn't have sympathy for these people? Or people would use the legal version as a stepping stone to the aforementioned stonger and more dangerous drugs, making the black market, and all of the people's lives that is ruins, even more powerful!

 

Playing with fire on the grandest of scales.

Let us ban alcohol, tobacco and prescription drugs that kill thousands each year.

[Finnegan]

Nicotine, valium, vicodin, marijuana, ecstasy and alcohooooool.

(all together now...)

[Captain...]

So you think the black market drug trade would disappear with legalisation? That's odd seeing as you identify that it's actually stronger, more dangerous substances that they sell so there would still be a need for these drugs and nothing would change. I completely agree that it makes people's lives hell but I'm not short sighted enough to think the right and only way to tackle it is by legalising drugs.

I also find it interesting you have limited sympathy for people who take known dangerous substance, yet in the same breath are wanting to legalise drugs? Even if the legalised drugs are less dangerous inevitably people would still die. You wouldn't have sympathy for these people? Or people would use the legal version as a stepping stone to the aforementioned stonger and more dangerous drugs, making the black market, and all of the people's lives that is ruins, even more powerful!

Playing with fire on the grandest of scales.

You are missing the point, if people knowingly take too many drugs, legal or otherwise, he has no sympathy. The problem with illegally manufactured and distributed drugs is you have no control and no idea what you are taking.

If someone chooses to drink a lethal amount of alcohol and dies, do you have sympathy for him? What if he chose to drink a pint of carling, and actually it was Carling mixed with paint stripper and he died? Do you have sympathy for him?

See the difference, people dying of their own stupidity is one thing, and you can't control that. People dying because they have taken something they believe to be ok and it turns out they have been sold something that will kill them, we can control with legalisation and regulation.

[The God Emperor]

So you think the black market drug trade would disappear with legalisation? That's odd seeing as you identify that it's actually stronger, more dangerous substances that they sell so there would still be a need for these drugs and nothing would change. I completely agree that it makes people's lives hell but I'm not short sighted enough to think the right and only way to tackle it is by legalising drugs.

 

I also find it interesting you have limited sympathy for people who take known dangerous substance, yet in the same breath are wanting to legalise drugs? Even if the legalised drugs are less dangerous inevitably people would still die. You wouldn't have sympathy for these people? Or people would use the legal version as a stepping stone to the aforementioned stonger and more dangerous drugs, making the black market, and all of the people's lives that is ruins, even more powerful!

 

Playing with fire on the grandest of scales.

where have I said it would? the black market would exist like it does for alcohol and tobacco but it would be minute compared to today. At the moment anyone who wants to take drugs has to buy them of the black market with all the risks that that brings with it. If people want to experiment I'd rather they had access to a safer substance that in turn is going to produce wealth. Like I said in my previous post, if drugs are to be sold on the market then the incentive is to make them safer and less likely to ruin individuals lives. How is that short sighted? I'd argue that persisting with the failed policy of prohibition is short sighted. 

 

what does my sympathy to drug users have to do with my stance on legalisation? You're not going to avoid all deaths, but legalisation will make it less dangerous so you could argue there would be less deaths. Isn't that the whole point of prohibition? to reduce the amounts of deaths and danger a substance can cause.

No I wouldn't have sympathy for someone who has taken a substance by their own free will, that they know to be dangerous.

with legalisation the black market for drugs would shrink, making it much harder to get hold of the illegal stuff due to less production and the massively inflated prices that would bring. Legalisation would not make the black market more powerful, look at the American Mafia post alcohol prohibition. The only reason they were able to keep sustaining them selves after legalisation was being able to move from illegal alcohol to illegal drugs and prostitution.

 

I'd say that sacrificing freedom for safety is a much more dangerous fire to be playing with.  

[BoneDog]

Will legalising them stop any black marketing of impure or dangerous versions. No doubt any legalised drug like cigarettes would be taxed to the hilt to discourage users leaving a gap in the market like alcohol for dangerous cheaper alternatives that many will find attractive.

 

Potentially increasing their use and the impact  a lot more drug influnenced people might have on everyday life I'm not convinced it solves the problem

 

I don't think legalising them would stop the black marketing. There are quite a few reasons that would keep drug dealing a big business imo.

 

Also agree with your last point about legalising them not solving the many problems that come from the business.

[BoneDog]

I wouldn't have a problem with marryjewana being sold in the shops as I think most people who want to do that already do.

 

The only problem I could see coming from that decision is there would maybe be an increase in attempted shop robberies.

[Voll Blau]

Nicotine, valium, vicodin, marijuana, ecstasy and alcohooooool.

(all together now...)

 

C-C-C-C-C...

[Fox92]

I don't get why she said she was 'vulnerable'. We all receive drug education, we all know the dangers, so with everything surely you just accept responsibility prior to taking? You know what's going to happen, you know that it's killed people before.

[Rincewind]

If only it was that straightforward.Although  I agree that a person with few worries in life and who knows the dangers should know better and refrain from putting themselves in danger.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Be interested to see what the stats are in regards to deaths directly linked to ecstasy vs how often it is taken. Would imagine you can find some silly stats about things more likely to kill you.

[Kyle_Le_Don]

Legalise DMT and Ayahuasca & give a proper shaman education. **** R.E off

[The Quick Brown Fox]

I'm all for legalising drugs, the manufacturing and quality would be controlled so deaths should decrease.

The government could tax all sales and the usage could be monitored rather than guessed.

Also I feel if it wasn't illegal kids wouldn't see it as something "cool" to do. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I don't use drugs of any kind, I just don't see the need.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I hope they can live with their consciences.

You must have been high on drugs, when you posted that insulting trash

[Steven]

You must have been high on drugs, when you posted that insulting trash

Don't libel me. My conscience is clear.

[Webbo]

Don't libel me. My conscience is clear.

You implied that mothers who didn't want their children to take drugs are responsible for their own children's death, a pathetically crass statement by any measure.