Head Honcho Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 We should have a plane on standby every day and anyone that wants to join ISIS has a free flight.
purpleronnie Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Thread title sounds like the start of a joke... On topic, I agree with above poster. Most sensible people do.
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Why is there an assumption of 'grooming' or 'brainwashing' here. They've been presented with various choices, just like all of us, and have made their decisions. Nobody is tricking them or forcing them into it. They know what they're going there for and have happily made the decision to go. And you know this to a certainty? We should have a plane on standby every day and anyone that wants to join ISIS has a free flight. Yup, because then they're no longer 'our problem'. The Pontius Pilate approach.
Guest MattP Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 The point of the comparison was to dispute your claim that these girls were not kids, but were just exercising their free will, implying that they are entirely blameworthy for their actions. Obviously, there is no exact comparison to the Rotherham case in which girls as young as 11 or 12 were among those abused, and many were raped and tortured. However, there are some valid comparisons, not least the grooming. Although some were much younger, many of the Rotherham girls were 14, 15 or 16 - and the process generally started with the grooming of girls who went along with it of their own free will, before things escalated into gang rape, torture etc. Is there really such a massive difference between (a) girls in Rotherham being groomed by taxi-drivers, fed vodka and fags, believing that they have a boyfriend who cares about them, then ending up suffering horrendous abuse; (b) girls in London being groomed online by jihadists, falling for a load of guff about their "noble cause" and the prospects of a lovely Islamic marriage, then ending up suffering whatever they suffer in Syria? Not completely comparable, obviously, but the 2 situations have a lot in common. Now, if these girls get involved in atrocities out in Syria, they should face the legal penalties appropriate to their actions, the circumstances and their age - and they've made an incredibly bad misjudgment in falling for the jihadist brainwashing - but a naive 15-year-old being deciding to go out there is not the same scenario as a 25-year-old or something. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-11696508 "Five men have been jailed after being found guilty of sex offences against girls as young as 12. The men were condemned as "sexual predators" by the judge after they were found guilty of grooming teenage girls for sex. The jury heard how the men developed relationships with three teenage girls - having sex with them in cars and parks in the Rotherham area. Change of behaviour The girls believed they were in relationships with the men. The authorities were alerted after changes were noted in the behaviour of the teenage victims." I'll end my contribution there, as I don't want to end up in yet another lengthy debate, when we're never likely to end up agreeing. See you for a drink some time! I must nip in for a hand of poker with Ken, too! As you say, I don't think we'll agree and I really don't see too much comparison at all with Rotherham, the situations are miles apart in my opinion, Plus we don't yet know if these have actually been groomed anyway? Who is to say these girls don't actually want this? Plenty of young Muslim Males in Britain want to join the jihad and give their live to the cause, why do we assume young women wouldn;t either? As we've seen before from various polls among young British Muslims, support for fanatical groups isn't anywhere near as small as we want to believe it is. I'm not at the Hull game unfortunately but another home game afterwards if you fancy a beer? Are you back on the booze yet?
GaelicFox Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 So Hobbes was right then and only might makes right, the only forces capable of controlling this setting are tyrants, dictators and authoritarian groups? Any attempt at democracy is a doomed enterprise formulated by idealists working under the belief that there is a grain of selflessness in any person? Democracy is a very flimsy ideology to many on the planet including many on these shores We are all controlled to greater or lesser extent One tyrant leaves , 10,000 replace him How you change that outcome is beyond My thinking capabilities
Head Honcho Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 And you know this to a certainty? Yup, because then they're no longer 'our problem'. The Pontius Pilate approach. I don't give a shite what approach it is if the dogs want to fight against us then deport them.
GaelicFox Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 They would need the backing of a major, major state for that to be the case - they don't have it, and they're not likely to ever get it. They lack any kind of big military hardware, and the only asset they have is being able to use the Internet for communication and recruitment. The only reason they've not had their balls chopped off ala Al Qaeda is because they haven't done anything massively drastic in the West as they did. Right now they're a useful bogeyman to scare the kids with before bedtime. Agreed little appetite in west for another crusade/oil tainted war It's interesting the US is booming on oil production and suddenly they stop starting conflicts in oil regions , funny that
GaelicFox Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I've already predicted that as an attack over the coming years, it just looks too simple to do and the destruction they would cause would be a travesty. The big announcement of ISIS into Europe. I mean how long would it take Spain or Greece to get the 100+ armed officers you would need to the South of one of the islands to combat a boatload of 30-40 jihadists armed to the teeth trying to kill anyone in sight? You'd be talking hours I bet. I really hope they already have provisions in place, they should be watching the seas from Lebanon like hawks. I'd be pretty sure they are , but as we have seen watching and stopping are two different things , the Russians can pop on our border with bombers with little or no warning to defend ourselves , and we are watching them constantly I don't give a shite what approach it is if the dogs want to fight against us then deport them. Better still take passports so there is no coming back
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Democracy is a very flimsy ideology to many on the planet including many on these shores We are all controlled to greater or lesser extent One tyrant leaves , 10,000 replace him How you change that outcome is beyond My thinking capabilities If we continue along that path, nature will change the outcome in her own way - permanently. I don't give a shite what approach it is if the dogs want to fight against us then deport them. It's cowardly, passing on our own problem citizens to a different sovereign nation (and yes, Syria is still - just about - sovereign).
MooseBreath Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 And you know this to a certainty? Looks pretty obvious. There's no suggestion from anywhere that they've been forced to make this decision.
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Looks pretty obvious. There's no suggestion from anywhere that they've been forced to make this decision. Still proves nothing. We have no idea about what was said to them online or offline before they made this decision. Agreed little appetite in west for another crusade/oil tainted war It's interesting the US is booming on oil production and suddenly they stop starting conflicts in oil regions , funny that Yeah. Also, it's always good to have a little bogeyman around though. Which could well explain the all talk and no trousers approach towards ISIS right now.
Guest MattP Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Why are we presuming they have been 'groomed'? I don't get it.
AKCJ Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Today's BBC News - 'it is confirmed that three British school girls have now entered Syria'. Next week's Daily Star - 'it is confirmed that half of Syria have now entered three British school girls'.
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Why are we presuming they have been 'groomed'? I don't get it. We're not. We're merely not discounting the possibility out of hand.
The God Emperor Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I wouldn't say the blame is 100% on the girls. They're 15, few 15 year old in Britain are anywhere close to being mature enough to be considered an adult who can make sensible decisions. I imagine there is some degree of grooming by male fighters online, who've realised that there isn't much totty knocking around in the Caliphate and the girls in their immaturity have fallen for these swashbuckling rouges. So some of the blame falls on the part of these morally bankrupt individuals. Also what where the parents and other adults in the community doing? I know parents can't watch there children 24/7 but surely this wasn't spur of the moment decision, there would have been signs of clues littered about. I'd have never have gotten away with something like this, my mum was like the KGB knowing exactley what I was doing all the time some how.
Guest WarehamFox Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Who control's human rights in this country? The E.U? It's ridiculous, those who want to kill us, can stay and these girls will be the same. They are to young to be imprisoned and will be welcomed back into this country. It's a joke
Guest MattP Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I'm just waiting for the Isis apologism to start again. That was painful. I think we're about half a page away.....
Alf Bentley Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I'm not at the Hull game unfortunately but another home game afterwards if you fancy a beer? Are you back on the booze yet? Yep, back boozing....in a semi-controlled manner. I'll PM you unless you do so first. I'm bringing a Villa-supporting mate to the Hull match, so I'll have someone else to argue with!
MooseBreath Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Still proves nothing. We have no idea about what was said to them online or offline before they made this decision. Check out some of the comments made by other western Isis brides. Can't link right now because I'm on my mobile but can be found by Google. They're not unhappy to be there. They're not drugged up or anything like that. They seem perfectly happy to be part of a brutal extremist regime. And why shouldn't they? There's nothing about being female that means you can't hold extremist views, is there?
Head Honcho Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Today's BBC News - 'it is confirmed that three British school girls have now entered Syria'. Next week's Daily Star - 'it is confirmed that half of Syria have now entered three British school girls'.
Head Honcho Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 If we continue along that path, nature will change the outcome in her own way - permanently. It's cowardly, passing on our own problem citizens to a different sovereign nation (and yes, Syria is still - just about - sovereign). They're not ours they belong to Islam and have no allegiance to this country they are trying to destroy. So take yer bleeding heart and join them if they're that precious to you.
Rincewind Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 if you have good parents who give you love and treat you as a person then it is unlikely that you would consider running away. at least you would be able to talk to them. if your parents are crap such as ignoring you abuse or slap you around there is a possibility you will want to leave and could be influenced by people that seem to care. We can not be certain why they ran away but the reason must have been stronger than for them to stay.
Head Honcho Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 if you have good parents who give you love and treat you as a person then it is unlikely that you would consider running away. at least you would be able to talk to them. if your parents are crap such as ignoring you abuse or slap you around there is a possibility you will want to leave and could be influenced by people that seem to care. We can not be certain why they ran away but the reason must have been stronger than for them to stay. All this crying for the camera nonsense was just that nonsense. They were fully aware of what these girls were going to do. The girls were in Turkey before they reported it to the police.
lgfualol Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 All this crying for the camera nonsense was just that nonsense. They were fully aware of what these girls were going to do. The girls were in Turkey before they reported it to the police. Really? It doesnt take days to fly to Turkey.
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 They're not ours they belong to Islam and have no allegiance to this country they are trying to destroy. So take yer bleeding heart and join them if they're that precious to you. Ah yes, the "if you don't like it, leave" argument. I was wondering when that would be trotted out. Oddly enough, these girls were born in the UK, educated in the UK, and were obviously radicalised in the UK, as well as being British citizens. Which means that if they start trouble and killing people of other countries, or encouraging others to do the same, questions might be asked of our own country regarding exactly how such radicalisation was allowed to happen in the first place and how these girls were allowed to be driven into the arms of the ideological nutjobs. Although they have no allegiance to the UK they ARE our problem, like it or not. And rather than just letting them leave to cause whatever mayhem they can, perhaps we could focus on how they got to be that way in the first place and try to stop it from happening again? And, as an aside, fundamentalist Islam scares and angers the hell out of me. The same is true of other ideological hatred, including that of those who wish to incite a war with Islam (as nebulous as it is) or those who think one is inevitable (which is the same thing). Such ideological fundamentalism will - one day - end up wiping out humanity. And that'll be a damn shame, because we could probably end up doing a lot of good things if we actually got off the idea that one bunch of humans and what they believe are inherently superior to another bunch of human beings because yet another bunch of human beings wrote it in a book a thousand years ago.
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