Steven Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 their home life must be shit if they considered doing this as an alternative. were they spoilt or ignored? Quite. Perhaps if the parents had cared as much before they left as they profess to care after they left then the girls would never have travelled to Syria in the first place.
Webbo Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Blaming the parents without any insight into their home life is crass stupidity. Teenage girls, even the intelligent ones are quite often fvcking idiots, they think they're in love after a boy smiles at them. They've been groomed like hundreds of others are every year.
Finnegan Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I'm so glad Alf injected some actual humanity in to this thread. It's ****ing tragic, they are kids. Wishing that they'd just die? Kinell.
Voll Blau Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Enid Blyton's really not putting any effort into her book titles now is she...
GaelicFox Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I can't work out how children are allowed to travel like this ??? These are minors ?? What's worrying is if they can get three young girls to do this What can they get millions of disaffected and angry young (mainly Somali and Pakistani) Muslim Boys all over Northern Europe This is not something to ignore the power of these barbaric murders is emmence when thinking about angry and disaffected youths , It's not something to ignore scoff or don't care about , for me it's derply concerning I'm not sure I'm concerned about these children , I'm more concerned about mine and potentially what's around the corner , It's a war with no particular enemy , it's a war with an ideology , how do you bomb ideology or shoot the thoughts generated by such ideology ??? The only way is to break the thinking circle and that's a huge battle , This is building into something evil , it's a 1000 year war that has just entered an new and dangerous phase I lived in Saudi arabia for a bit if you want to understand some of the roots of this ISIS issue look no further than the "dictatorship" that ruled Saudi and the western countries who will litterly cover up ANYTHING for them because of their $8000bl cash reserves and cheap black liquid gold These incidents worry me ....but only on a bigger picture level
bovril Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I had some pretty stupid ideas at that age, but fortunately didn't have the ability to do anything about them. I'm still gobsmacked at how it happened. The absconding from home on false excuses I can understand, but at 15 I'm not sure that I'd have been capable of making my way from E. London to Gatwick, never mind jumping on a plane to Istanbul..... And how did they pay for the flights? Maybe they nicked a credit card from a parent for online booking - or do 15-year-olds habitually have hundreds of quid these days? Or maybe someone from Islamic State booked the flights for them....I'm already assuming that someone from IS probably picked them up in Istanbul and took them off to Syria, as surely even a worldly-wise teenager in 2015 couldn't arrange bus journeys across Turkey to the border - or maybe they could, if the info was available online? It's still pretty easy to get from Istanbul to Syria. A simple and cheap overnight bus to Gaziantep or a city nearby and the ISIS guys will smuggle you across with a bit of help from Turkish border guards looking the other way. A sorry state of affairs as Alf says. Slightly related, I remember crossing the Turkish / Greek border in September and there being an ambulance with 'Dewsbury to Syria - Red Crescent' written in green on the side. It looked like it had been sitting there on the Greek side for a couple of days, ominously empty.
Guest MattP Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Maybe it's having a daughter only 5 years younger than them. They're only kids, for fvcks sake. Incredibly misguided kids who have gone off to join one of the most horrible organisations ever to exist, but 15-year-old kids! I had some pretty stupid ideas at that age, but fortunately didn't have the ability to do anything about them. I'm still gobsmacked at how it happened. The absconding from home on false excuses I can understand, but at 15 I'm not sure that I'd have been capable of making my way from E. London to Gatwick, never mind jumping on a plane to Istanbul..... And how did they pay for the flights? Maybe they nicked a credit card from a parent for online booking - or do 15-year-olds habitually have hundreds of quid these days? Or maybe someone from Islamic State booked the flights for them....I'm already assuming that someone from IS probably picked them up in Istanbul and took them off to Syria, as surely even a worldly-wise teenager in 2015 couldn't arrange bus journeys across Turkey to the border - or maybe they could, if the info was available online? Sickening what IS are up to - and sickening to think of what they're likely to have these girls getting up to, and how they'll feel once they've realised the gravity of their error and the near impossibility of escaping from it. Sorry if this seems sanctimonious. I'm just getting soft in my old age - though not soft towards IS. We'll all gone soft towards ISIS Alf, that's why we are doing nothing about it at all. It's a pisspoor effort we have put up and it's all because we are absolutely sick of war, dragged into two unwanted ones we'll now sit back and do nothing when we actually need to do something, depressing.. The flights will have been paid by IS, they did an expose in the Times a few weeks ago posing as potential brides and they were met by a bloke in Tower Hamlets within 48 hours with the cash to pay for them (incredibly the guy wasn't charged with anything either for whatever reason, if that isn't us going soft what is!?) All the contacts were arranged and they would be in Syria within the next 48 hours after flying to Turkey. All done in a day or two on Twitter and Facebook. I'm so glad Alf injected some actual humanity in to this thread. It's ****ing tragic, they are kids. Wishing that they'd just die? Kinell. These girls aren't 'kids', they are 15-16 year old girls, the age lot of people go to work or are just about to, the age now a lot of polticians say we should be reducing the voting age to! The age most of society has no problem with them engaging in sexual relationships, having children, drinking or smoking. If they can do all that they can make a decision to do this. A year ago I might have had a little sympathy as the media here were barely reporting on these people, not a single person has an excuse now, these girls would have known the behaviour ISIS engage in. You simply can't not these days. I feel for the parents as we'll probably end up yet again seeing that these girls will have been radicalised in some place where the authorities turned a blind eye again in some weird show of so called 'tolerance' or 'political correctness'. People aren't going to get the violins out for 15-16 years olds joining ISIS Finners, even with a huge appetite for limp wristed policy and sympathy even Owen Jones isn't shedding a tear for these girls from what I've read on his Twitter. (Although I realise had it not been for the ISIS gay tossing he might be. Better they are in Syria than turning into Samantha Lewthwaite over here. One day we'll do what I said we should have done from the start and back President Assad. Then we'll start to finally stop this. This is building into something evil , it's a 1000 year war that has just entered an new and dangerous phase I lived in Saudi arabia for a bit if you want to understand some of the roots of this ISIS issue look no further than the "dictatorship" that ruled Saudi and the western countries who will litterly cover up ANYTHING for them because of their $8000bl cash reserves and cheap black liquid gold These incidents worry me ....but only on a bigger picture level Agree, it's frightening the pace this group seems to be gathering at, they've appointed a leader in Lebanon now as well, if we aren't careful we could be looking at a pretty large ISIS presence across most middle Eastern countries.
GaelicFox Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Agree, it's frightening the pace this group seems to be gathering at, they've appointed a leader in Lebanon now as well, if we aren't careful we could be looking at a pretty large ISIS presence across most middle Eastern countries. More worrying Matt is they are all over the south Mediterranean , people say North Africa but North Africa is the MED and these evil cuvts are then a Mumbai style boat ride from millions and millions of holiday makers every year !!!! This is what the Arab spring brought us , all the gaurdian readers and left jobs worths proclaiming the freeing of nations , actually just opened the gates for war lords and satans warriors ... I for one would be delighted to roll the clock back 10 years in the middle east and North Africa
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Agree, it's frightening the pace this group seems to be gathering at, they've appointed a leader in Lebanon now as well, if we aren't careful we could be looking at a pretty large ISIS presence across most middle Eastern countries. More worrying Matt is they are all over the south Mediterranean , people say North Africa but North Africa is the MED and these evil cuvts are then a Mumbai style boat ride from millions and millions of holiday makers every year !!!! This is what the Arab spring brought us , all the gaurdian readers and left jobs worths proclaiming the freeing of nations , actually just opened the gates for war lords and satans warriors ... I for one would be delighted to roll the clock back 10 years in the middle east and North Africa So Hobbes was right then and only might makes right, the only forces capable of controlling this setting are tyrants, dictators and authoritarian groups? Any attempt at democracy is a doomed enterprise formulated by idealists working under the belief that there is a grain of selflessness in any person?
Guest MattP Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Agree, it's frightening the pace this group seems to be gathering at, they've appointed a leader in Lebanon now as well, if we aren't careful we could be looking at a pretty large ISIS presence across most middle Eastern countries. More worrying Matt is they are all over the south Mediterranean , people say North Africa but North Africa is the MED and these evil cuvts are then a Mumbai style boat ride from millions and millions of holiday makers every year !!!! This is what the Arab spring brought us , all the gaurdian readers and left jobs worths proclaiming the freeing of nations , actually just opened the gates for war lords and satans warriors ... I for one would be delighted to roll the clock back 10 years in the middle east and North Africa I've already predicted that as an attack over the coming years, it just looks too simple to do and the destruction they would cause would be a travesty. The big announcement of ISIS into Europe. I mean how long would it take Spain or Greece to get the 100+ armed officers you would need to the South of one of the islands to combat a boatload of 30-40 jihadists armed to the teeth trying to kill anyone in sight? You'd be talking hours I bet. I really hope they already have provisions in place, they should be watching the seas from Lebanon like hawks.
J.Lisemore Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 With this group seemingly gathering pace in numbers, I might be coming across a bit vague but, genuine question - do we think this could ignite another world war?
Finnegan Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Find me anyone over the age of, I dunno, twenty five that would want to be held accountable for half the shit they thought and did at 15. They're kids. They're legally minors. It's hardly being limp wristed to think it's ****ing tragic they've been brainwashed in to travelling half way round the world to be some pervy cultist's wife slave.
Alf Bentley Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 We'll all gone soft towards ISIS Alf, that's why we are doing nothing about it at all. It's a pisspoor effort we have put up and it's all because we are absolutely sick of war, dragged into two unwanted ones we'll now sit back and do nothing when we actually need to do something, depressing.. The flights will have been paid by IS, they did an expose in the Times a few weeks ago posing as potential brides and they were met by a bloke in Tower Hamlets within 48 hours with the cash to pay for them (incredibly the guy wasn't charged with anything either for whatever reason, if that isn't us going soft what is!?) All the contacts were arranged and they would be in Syria within the next 48 hours after flying to Turkey. All done in a day or two on Twitter and Facebook. These girls aren't 'kids', they are 15-16 year old girls, the age lot of people go to work or are just about to, the age now a lot of polticians say we should be reducing the voting age to! The age most of society has no problem with them engaging in sexual relationships, having children, drinking or smoking. If they can do all that they can make a decision to do this. A year ago I might have had a little sympathy as the media here were barely reporting on these people, not a single person has an excuse now, these girls would have known the behaviour ISIS engage in. You simply can't not these days. I feel for the parents as we'll probably end up yet again seeing that these girls will have been radicalised in some place where the authorities turned a blind eye again in some weird show of so called 'tolerance' or 'political correctness'. One day we'll do what I said we should have done from the start and back President Assad. Then we'll start to finally stop this. Agree, it's frightening the pace this group seems to be gathering at, they've appointed a leader in Lebanon now as well, if we aren't careful we could be looking at a pretty large ISIS presence across most middle Eastern countries. I agree with you about the damage done to our readiness to tackle ISIS by unjustified wars like Iraq, which also boosted support for these nutters (though there are plenty of other factors in that). I'm not sure that Assad is the solution, though, except maybe as a short-term military ally with a negotiated exit for his lot if peace ever returns to his country. A policy of supporting or tolerating autocratic regimes from Libya to Saudi Arabia hasn't brought great benefits. I'm not saying that I have any easy solutions, though. It's probably going to be long and bloody haul on every front from the military and diplomatic (stop the Saudis and others funding these fvckers, for Christ's sake!) to education and inter-community relations. Although the West was slow to respond to ISIS, it has to be said that they've grown and spread with amazing rapidity. I don't follow the news from this region exceptionally closely, but I do follow it to some extent - and just a couple of years ago ISIS was just one of several factions fighting Assad in Syria, unless the situation was being massively misreported. Now, never mind Lebanon, there's an arm of Islamic State butchering people on the beach in Libya. They've been very effective at building their support very rapidly - and why/how that has happened is certainly a question that should be a priority. The 3 girls are kids. 2 of them are 15 and all were in their GCSE year at school, a similar age to many of the kids groomed and abused in Rotherham (at which you were rightly outraged)....you can't have it both ways. Very few teenagers are out working at 16 now, still less 15 (the age for leaving education/training is at least 17 now, isn't it?). "Most of society has no problem with [15-year-olds] engaging in sexual relationships, having children, drinking or smoking"?!? You must live in a different society to me, Matt! Some might not think it the worst thing in the world for some 15-year-olds to have sex with other local teenagers and to have the odd drink, but very few have no problem with 15-year-olds getting pregnant, still less running off to a war zone to cavort with blood-crazed merchants of hatred. I assume that you have "decadent liberal/socialist" society in mind; if so, that's as crazy a stereotype as it would be for me to suggest that everyone on the right spends their time sieg-heiling to portraits of Nick Griffin. You're a mature, educated bloke of 30-odd, yet I've seen you posting about media conspiracies to do down UKIP, so is it that surprising that much less educated, less mature 15-year-olds should go into denial mode about media reports of the atrocities perpetrated by ISIS - or the lack of justification for them? Particularly given the transnational nature of the Islamic creed and the mayhem in Islamic countries in recent years (to which the West has contributed, along with the Islamists and local tyrants)? As a society, we certainly need to get through to these kids just what a disgusting, murderous organisation ISIS is, but we need to understand the potential appeal, the brainwashing and the denial mechanisms to do that. I'd not seen The Times article about ISIS procuring Jihadi brides, but it doesn't surprise me. ISIS is clearly very well organised - and we need to understand that organisation so that we can counteract it. I presume that the intelligence services will have to play a big part in that, alongside education in schools - and education of parents.
davieG Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Islamic State: How foreigners are helped to reach Syria and Iraq By Erin Marie Saltman & Moli DowInstitute for Strategic Dialogue Continue reading the main story Related StoriesMissing UK girls in Syria, police say Three schoolgirls from London are now believed to be in Syria, amid fears they are planning to join Islamic State (IS). What makes people want to travel to conflicts in foreign lands and how are they helped to get there? Figures suggest more than 20,000 foreigners have joined the conflicts in Iraq and Syria in the last three years, with as many as 4,000 from Western Europe. The UK has some of the highest numbers, with 500 to 600 people making the journey to join IS. Understanding the radicalisation and recruitment, as well as the practicalities of travel to join IS, are crucial. But predicting and tracking these individuals is often problematic. Hard to stereotype Foreign terrorist fighters and female "brides of jihadists" are incredibly hard to stereotype. In addition, very little is actually known about the journey from their homes to IS territory. However, monitoring social media platforms, tracking of online interactions and engagement with former extremists has provided the Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD) with valuable insight into this controversial migration. There is no single source or cause behind radicalisation. It is a process with a variety of entry points. Kadiza Sultana, Amira Abase and Shamima Begum (L to R) left the UK a week ago There are numerous socialising agents that lead people to adopt an ideology. The same mechanisms that can attach an individual to a political party, grassroots movement or activist cause can also be used to draw individuals into an extremist ideology. Family networks, media, education, political parties and social groups all have an influence on how we perceive our identities and ideologies - and IS has become particularly adept at manipulating these. Continue reading the main story “Start QuoteIS has allowed and encouraged its foreign fighters, female recruits and supporters abroad to tweet, share and communicate their message and experiences” As a recent ISD report found, female Western migrants leave their friends and families in their country of origin and adopt new ones with Islamic State. Fellow "brothers" and "sisters" of IS become the family, the media and the education centre. IS dedicates time, money and expertise into cultivating these networks. The online sphere acts as an access point to much of this material and is often considered a source of radicalisation. Arguably the primary pull-factor IS has developed to recruit Westerners is its network of decentralised voices. Other terrorist organisations have kept their internal media, information and communication highly centralised and controlled. But IS has allowed and encouraged its foreign fighters, female recruits and supporters abroad to tweet, share and communicate their message and experiences with others on a range of online platforms. Raqqa province in Syria has long been a stronghold for IS militants This means that propaganda is fluent and fluid in a range of languages, targeting specific audiences through unintimidating culturally relevant spaces online. This also means interested individuals can communicate with those that have already made their journey to IS territory, asking practical questions and receiving advice and reinforcement from those already there. However, as research has found, offline extremist networks and recruiters remain a key "first spark" of radicalisation, introducing young individuals to online spaces which serve as a crucial catalyst to the radicalisation process. It is perhaps no surprise that the highest number of foreign fighters from the West often derive from the countries where offline extremist networks operate. 'Echo chamber' Al-Muhajiroun in the UK, Ansar al Haqq in France and Sharia4Belgium, to name a few, have promoted and disseminated Islamist extremist ideologies for many years. Thus, while the first point of extremist contact is offline, the online space becomes an echo chamber, facilitating radicalisation as well as encouraging and assisting individuals to join IS. Foreigners joining IS utilise the internet to assist their crossing. Many already in Syria provide practical advice and encouragement. They post on blogs, engage on public response sites, and invite interested individuals to engage on more private message streams when it comes time to plan the actualities of travel. Thousands have been displaced by conflict in Syria Questions about how to overcome the objections raised by one's family, what clothes to bring, where to attempt a crossing and what to expect on arrival are all addressed. The practicalities of monetary currency and how to act at airports and border checks are also discussed. Meeting points and contacts are also often organised in advance, and in some cases marriages with foreign fighters are pre-arranged. The internet has made it effortless to go online and purchase a plane ticket. The on-the-ground networks at Turkish and Syrian borders are less known, but there have been cases where IS has provided guides and even legal assistance to ensure that foreign recruits arrive in IS territory. All not lost It is clear that IS has dedicated infrastructure and thought to its robust recruitment strategy, largely depending on its online networking. However, this is not a helpless situation. There are myriad approaches to help stem processes of radicalisation leading to this migration. First and foremost we must target the roots of radicalisation, rather than its symptoms. Governments typically continue to rely on new legislation, censorship and filtering methods to counter online extremism. These "negative measures" are controversial and, largely, ineffective on their own. Does social media aid the march of extremism? The focus needs to shift to "positive measures" - those that develop and propagate counter narratives and online initiatives that undermine the allure of extremist propaganda in the first place. These measures should incorporate governments, civil society and the private sector. Further emphasis should be paid to developing resilience to violent extremism. This should involve improving both digital literacy and critical consumption skills, already being piloted through certain UK Prevent schemes as well as abroad. Extreme Dialogue, for example, is a recently launched counter-narrative education programme, encouraging critical thinking in youth. Programmes such as these serve to demonstrate that the internet is not the enemy. Instead, it is a platform that - if developed properly - can be one of the strongest tools in the fight against extremism.
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 With this group seemingly gathering pace in numbers, I might be coming across a bit vague but, genuine question - do we think this could ignite another world war? They would need the backing of a major, major state for that to be the case - they don't have it, and they're not likely to ever get it. They lack any kind of big military hardware, and the only asset they have is being able to use the Internet for communication and recruitment. The only reason they've not had their balls chopped off ala Al Qaeda is because they haven't done anything massively drastic in the West as they did. Right now they're a useful bogeyman to scare the kids with before bedtime.
Guest MattP Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 I agree with you about the damage done to our readiness to tackle ISIS by unjustified wars like Iraq, which also boosted support for these nutters (though there are plenty of other factors in that). I'm not sure that Assad is the solution, though, except maybe as a short-term military ally with a negotiated exit for his lot if peace ever returns to his country. A policy of supporting or tolerating autocratic regimes from Libya to Saudi Arabia hasn't brought great benefits. I'm not saying that I have any easy solutions, though. It's probably going to be long and bloody haul on every front from the military and diplomatic (stop the Saudis and others funding these fvckers, for Christ's sake!) to education and inter-community relations. Although the West was slow to respond to ISIS, it has to be said that they've grown and spread with amazing rapidity. I don't follow the news from this region exceptionally closely, but I do follow it to some extent - and just a couple of years ago ISIS was just one of several factions fighting Assad in Syria, unless the situation was being massively misreported. Now, never mind Lebanon, there's an arm of Islamic State butchering people on the beach in Libya. They've been very effective at building their support very rapidly - and why/how that has happened is certainly a question that should be a priority. The 3 girls are kids. 2 of them are 15 and all were in their GCSE year at school, a similar age to many of the kids groomed and abused in Rotherham (at which you were rightly outraged)....you can't have it both ways. Very few teenagers are out working at 16 now, still less 15 (the age for leaving education/training is at least 17 now, isn't it?). "Most of society has no problem with [15-year-olds] engaging in sexual relationships, having children, drinking or smoking"?!? You must live in a different society to me, Matt! Some might not think it the worst thing in the world for some 15-year-olds to have sex with other local teenagers and to have the odd drink, but very few have no problem with 15-year-olds getting pregnant, still less running off to a war zone to cavort with blood-crazed merchants of hatred. I assume that you have "decadent liberal/socialist" society in mind; if so, that's as crazy a stereotype as it would be for me to suggest that everyone on the right spends their time sieg-heiling to portraits of Nick Griffin. You're a mature, educated bloke of 30-odd, yet I've seen you posting about media conspiracies to do down UKIP, so is it that surprising that much less educated, less mature 15-year-olds should go into denial mode about media reports of the atrocities perpetrated by ISIS - or the lack of justification for them? Particularly given the transnational nature of the Islamic creed and the mayhem in Islamic countries in recent years (to which the West has contributed, along with the Islamists and local tyrants)? As a society, we certainly need to get through to these kids just what a disgusting, murderous organisation ISIS is, but we need to understand the potential appeal, the brainwashing and the denial mechanisms to do that. I'd not seen The Times article about ISIS procuring Jihadi brides, but it doesn't surprise me. ISIS is clearly very well organised - and we need to understand that organisation so that we can counteract it. I presume that the intelligence services will have to play a big part in that, alongside education in schools - and education of parents. Sorry but the comparison between Rotherham and this I really just don't see at all, in fact I think it's pretty insulting to the victims of Rotherham as well - for a start off the vast majority of the girls in Rotherham were far younger than 15-16, next thing they were put under the influence of all sort of drink and drugs to be coerced into the acts - the other thing is the vast majority of these girls complained about their abusers to various people and at times the authorities themselves and they weren't taken seriously, even fobbed off and threatened with arrest themselves in certain cases. The other major difference is that the girls Rotherham were often beaten, abused and threatened into the gross acts they had to do, no such occurance appears to have happened here given the girls have gone at their own accord. Sorry, I just can't have the comparison before. Same with the media conspiracies, not a fair comparison, ISIS's own propaganda is the beheadings and executions, their own videos show it, they openly post about throwing gays off buildings, cutting off the heads of yazidis and selling christian women into slavery, it's what they carry on their own websites. To make that comparison ISIS would have to deny the things we are reporting them to be doing, they aren't, they are proud of what they doing and believe it's right.
Babylon Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Find me anyone over the age of, I dunno, twenty five that would want to be held accountable for half the shit they thought and did at 15. They're kids. Well, to be fair the most we'd be accountable for is a bit of minor vandalism. I'm not sure traveling half way around the world to marry and support terrorists ever cropped up.
purpleronnie Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Why would you want to run away to syria?, don't they know a wars going on?, should have chosen somewhere nice.
MooseBreath Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Take a look at the comments coming from other western jihadi wives, most a fair bit older than this lot, and see how sympathetic you are then. These people are repulsive scumbags, just like the western male fighters. They shouldn't get any extra sympathy just because they're female, and if they're old enough to get themselves to Syria then they're old enough to be accountable for their own decisions. I hope they never come back.
leicsmac Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Personal responsibility is a fine thing but thinking it is absolute to the point of expressing hope that three 15 year old girls suffer and die (which they will) because of it is a bit strong. The 'recruiter' who brought these two into the fold surely takes some of the blame.
Alf Bentley Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Sorry but the comparison between Rotherham and this I really just don't see at all, in fact I think it's pretty insulting to the victims of Rotherham as well - for a start off the vast majority of the girls in Rotherham were far younger than 15-16, next thing they were put under the influence of all sort of drink and drugs to be coerced into the acts - the other thing is the vast majority of these girls complained about their abusers to various people and at times the authorities themselves and they weren't taken seriously, even fobbed off and threatened with arrest themselves in certain cases. The other major difference is that the girls Rotherham were often beaten, abused and threatened into the gross acts they had to do, no such occurance appears to have happened here given the girls have gone at their own accord. Sorry, I just can't have the comparison before. Same with the media conspiracies, not a fair comparison, ISIS's own propaganda is the beheadings and executions, their own videos show it, they openly post about throwing gays off buildings, cutting off the heads of yazidis and selling christian women into slavery, it's what they carry on their own websites. To make that comparison ISIS would have to deny the things we are reporting them to be doing, they aren't, they are proud of what they doing and believe it's right. The point of the comparison was to dispute your claim that these girls were not kids, but were just exercising their free will, implying that they are entirely blameworthy for their actions. Obviously, there is no exact comparison to the Rotherham case in which girls as young as 11 or 12 were among those abused, and many were raped and tortured. However, there are some valid comparisons, not least the grooming. Although some were much younger, many of the Rotherham girls were 14, 15 or 16 - and the process generally started with the grooming of girls who went along with it of their own free will, before things escalated into gang rape, torture etc. Is there really such a massive difference between (a) girls in Rotherham being groomed by taxi-drivers, fed vodka and fags, believing that they have a boyfriend who cares about them, then ending up suffering horrendous abuse; (b) girls in London being groomed online by jihadists, falling for a load of guff about their "noble cause" and the prospects of a lovely Islamic marriage, then ending up suffering whatever they suffer in Syria? Not completely comparable, obviously, but the 2 situations have a lot in common. Now, if these girls get involved in atrocities out in Syria, they should face the legal penalties appropriate to their actions, the circumstances and their age - and they've made an incredibly bad misjudgment in falling for the jihadist brainwashing - but a naive 15-year-old being deciding to go out there is not the same scenario as a 25-year-old or something. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-11696508 "Five men have been jailed after being found guilty of sex offences against girls as young as 12. The men were condemned as "sexual predators" by the judge after they were found guilty of grooming teenage girls for sex. The jury heard how the men developed relationships with three teenage girls - having sex with them in cars and parks in the Rotherham area. Change of behaviour The girls believed they were in relationships with the men. The authorities were alerted after changes were noted in the behaviour of the teenage victims." I'll end my contribution there, as I don't want to end up in yet another lengthy debate, when we're never likely to end up agreeing. See you for a drink some time! I must nip in for a hand of poker with Ken, too!
Nalis Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Thread title sounds like the start of a joke... On topic, I agree with above poster.
MooseBreath Posted 25 February 2015 Posted 25 February 2015 Why is there an assumption of 'grooming' or 'brainwashing' here. They've been presented with various choices, just like all of us, and have made their decisions. Nobody is tricking them or forcing them into it. They know what they're going there for and have happily made the decision to go.
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