Next Leader of the Opposition

[leicsmac]

Following on from the previous page, is British socialism dying? A piece from the Commentator.

 

Last week, extreme left-wing protesters took to Westminster to show their fury at what the Daily Mirror described as ‘the most right-wing Queen’s Speech in a generation’.

 

I’ve written about the decline in socialist action on multiple occasions, but I think in light of events last week it’s worth going over what we are seeing, and reflecting on the fact that the far left truly is in decline, and that it's happening before our very eyes.

When the Conservatives took office in 2010, alongside the Liberal Democrats as coalition partners, the student-left (which probably comprises the biggest, or certainly the most active, grouping of leftist-protest movements) were organised and ready to agitate.

 

Staging countless demonstrations and even storming CCHQ in Millbank, the student- left (who were joined by large numbers of older socialists) seemed keen to take on British Conservatism.

At the time of the last set of major protests in response to the tuition fees increase, I was the campus Tory Chairman at Essex University. Let’s just say I wasn’t the most popular person at that time for supporting the government.

Coach-loads of students enthusiastically travelled up to Westminster to voice their anger, and the campus became a ghost town.

 

The reality now, however, paints quite a different picture. This is no surprise when one looks at the facts.

Reports now suggest that at University campuses across the country, countless radical-leftist movements lie in disarray and without members.

 

At the recent election, TUSC, the most obvious of the radical- left wing groups that bothered to stand for election, received a national total of just 36, 327 votes (0.1 percent of the vote). Put in to perspective, that’s just 1,710 more votes than John Bercow received in his seat of Buckingham.

 

There are also over 25 radical leftist political parties comprising groups like the ‘New Communist Party’, the ‘Revolutionary Communist Group’, the ‘Communist Party of Britain’, the ‘Communist Party of Britain (Marxist- Leninist)’ and the ‘Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)' -- obviously.

In student politics, the NUS, who once were at the forefront of demonstrations, have rapidly cut off ties with extreme-left elements. Remaining socialists have come to brand one of their erstwhile safest fiefdoms as ‘right wing’, as a result of the predominantly ‘Labour Student’ make up of delegates.

 

Now, splinter radical Student Unions argue amongst themselves over niche issues like whether condemning ISIS is Islamophobic, or if the fight against 'oppression' should involve a blanket ban on men from attending political meetings.

This inability of the left to even stomach the enthusiasm to work together or champion issues that matter to everyday men and women indicates one obvious reality: they have lost their way, and no longer truly stand for anything meaningful.

The protests last week and shortly after polling day, although violent and thuggish, demonstrate the desperate lengths to which the far-left are having to go to get noticed.

 

From scribbling horrific graffiti on a national war memorial and attacking police officers to abusing UKIP’s Douglas Carswell -- pathetically screaming "fascist" at him -- in the street, the far-left are running out of ideas, and they know it.

The recent general election results only rubbed salt into an already fatal wound.

 

If the election showed anything, it is that hard working people are putting their trust in the Conservative Party. They see that the socialists only gain from the personal economic anxieties of others and that, as a movement, they have no genuine desire to make anyone better off.

 

For Conservatives, the road ahead from here is to keep on doing what Conservatives have always done best: govern.

With a clear mandate from the British electorate, it is time to get on with strengthening the economy and pushing for a better future for our hardest workers.

Unlike socialists, we have always strived to help those that truly want the best future for themselves and their family. That’s why this election, despite their best efforts, Labour lost. They lacked that vision and fell for their own classic trap: talking down to people about their problems, without offering a solution.

 

Now, Labour will have an internal fight on their hands to select their next leader. Will they accept that there is limited appetite amongst the electorate for socialism and move to the centre-ground, or vote for someone that still claims to offer the mystical, magic formula of electorally acceptable socialism?

This could be the very end of British socialism, certainly from within the world of electoral politics. Margaret Thatcher's dream of a Britain without socialism may soon become a reality.

 

 

 

Personally I wouldn't say it's dying, but it's certainly on it's knees, as Webbo has pointed it's now over ten years even before I was born that Britain elected a socialist government and every time Labour goes to the left no one wants to vote for them apart from the absolute die hards who would vote Labour if Jimmy Savile was leader. Maybe Socialism has just had it's day? In a modern World where the richest are the ones who can up themselves and move if you implement all sorts of wealth taxes and massive income tax rates you would have to think bankrupcy wouldn't be far off anyway.

 

Lot of hyperbole and opinionated conjecture in there, though the point about the left rarely actually working together is very, very clear and correct. One thing the right is extremely good at is organising and presenting a united front when the time comes. You could say that's a part of the overall makeup - the right are more happy with deferring to authority (that share roughly the same ideology as them) and following, whereas the left tend to be much less willing to follow in the same way and end up squabbling amongst themselves endlessly as a result. You only have to look at all the political infighting within the LGBT+ community for evidence of that.

 

As far as the death of socialism goes...as I said in the previous page ideologies are cyclic and the wheel never stops turning.

[ADK]

Following on from the previous page, is British socialism dying? A piece from the Commentator.

 

Last week, extreme left-wing protesters took to Westminster to show their fury at what the Daily Mirror described as ‘the most right-wing Queen’s Speech in a generation’.

 

I’ve written about the decline in socialist action on multiple occasions, but I think in light of events last week it’s worth going over what we are seeing, and reflecting on the fact that the far left truly is in decline, and that it's happening before our very eyes.

When the Conservatives took office in 2010, alongside the Liberal Democrats as coalition partners, the student-left (which probably comprises the biggest, or certainly the most active, grouping of leftist-protest movements) were organised and ready to agitate.

 

Staging countless demonstrations and even storming CCHQ in Millbank, the student- left (who were joined by large numbers of older socialists) seemed keen to take on British Conservatism.

At the time of the last set of major protests in response to the tuition fees increase, I was the campus Tory Chairman at Essex University. Let’s just say I wasn’t the most popular person at that time for supporting the government.

Coach-loads of students enthusiastically travelled up to Westminster to voice their anger, and the campus became a ghost town.

 

The reality now, however, paints quite a different picture. This is no surprise when one looks at the facts.

Reports now suggest that at University campuses across the country, countless radical-leftist movements lie in disarray and without members.

 

At the recent election, TUSC, the most obvious of the radical- left wing groups that bothered to stand for election, received a national total of just 36, 327 votes (0.1 percent of the vote). Put in to perspective, that’s just 1,710 more votes than John Bercow received in his seat of Buckingham.

 

There are also over 25 radical leftist political parties comprising groups like the ‘New Communist Party’, the ‘Revolutionary Communist Group’, the ‘Communist Party of Britain’, the ‘Communist Party of Britain (Marxist- Leninist)’ and the ‘Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)' -- obviously.

In student politics, the NUS, who once were at the forefront of demonstrations, have rapidly cut off ties with extreme-left elements. Remaining socialists have come to brand one of their erstwhile safest fiefdoms as ‘right wing’, as a result of the predominantly ‘Labour Student’ make up of delegates.

 

Now, splinter radical Student Unions argue amongst themselves over niche issues like whether condemning ISIS is Islamophobic, or if the fight against 'oppression' should involve a blanket ban on men from attending political meetings.

This inability of the left to even stomach the enthusiasm to work together or champion issues that matter to everyday men and women indicates one obvious reality: they have lost their way, and no longer truly stand for anything meaningful.

The protests last week and shortly after polling day, although violent and thuggish, demonstrate the desperate lengths to which the far-left are having to go to get noticed.

 

From scribbling horrific graffiti on a national war memorial and attacking police officers to abusing UKIP’s Douglas Carswell -- pathetically screaming "fascist" at him -- in the street, the far-left are running out of ideas, and they know it.

The recent general election results only rubbed salt into an already fatal wound.

 

If the election showed anything, it is that hard working people are putting their trust in the Conservative Party. They see that the socialists only gain from the personal economic anxieties of others and that, as a movement, they have no genuine desire to make anyone better off.

 

For Conservatives, the road ahead from here is to keep on doing what Conservatives have always done best: govern.

With a clear mandate from the British electorate, it is time to get on with strengthening the economy and pushing for a better future for our hardest workers.

Unlike socialists, we have always strived to help those that truly want the best future for themselves and their family. That’s why this election, despite their best efforts, Labour lost. They lacked that vision and fell for their own classic trap: talking down to people about their problems, without offering a solution.

 

Now, Labour will have an internal fight on their hands to select their next leader. Will they accept that there is limited appetite amongst the electorate for socialism and move to the centre-ground, or vote for someone that still claims to offer the mystical, magic formula of electorally acceptable socialism?

This could be the very end of British socialism, certainly from within the world of electoral politics. Margaret Thatcher's dream of a Britain without socialism may soon become a reality.

 

 

 

Personally I wouldn't say it's dying, but it's certainly on it's knees, as Webbo has pointed it's now over ten years even before I was born that Britain elected a socialist government and every time Labour goes to the left no one wants to vote for them apart from the absolute die hards who would vote Labour if Jimmy Savile was leader. Maybe Socialism has just had it's day? In a modern World where the richest are the ones who can up themselves and move if you implement all sorts of wealth taxes and massive income tax rates you would have to think bankrupcy wouldn't be far off anyway.

 

What a load of rubbish

[Guest MattP]

Lot of hyperbole and opinionated conjecture in there, though the point about the left rarely actually working together is very, very clear and correct. One thing the right is extremely good at is organising and presenting a united front when the time comes. You could say that's a part of the overall makeup - the right are more happy with deferring to authority (that share roughly the same ideology as them) and following, whereas the left tend to be much less willing to follow in the same way and end up squabbling amongst themselves endlessly as a result. You only have to look at all the political infighting within the LGBT+ community for evidence of that.

 

As far as the death of socialism goes...as I said in the previous page ideologies are cyclic and the wheel never stops turning.

 

In a lot of things it's actually impossible to do so though in terms of working together, I mean how do you reconcile fighting for women's rights while attending sex-segregated rallies to show solidarity with Muslims and grab their vote? Same with gay rights I suppose, I mean the Labour party could never have taken Eddie Izzard on a wander around Bradford like they could in London could they? I think they are going to have to make decisions on this and let the people know exactly where they stand on issues without trying to bat for both teams on different grounds, a lot of this wouldn't have gone un-noticed with the electorate over the last month.

[Guest MattP]

What a load of rubbish

 

It took some effort to come back with a worse riposte than Frank but you managed it.

[leicsmac]

In a lot of things it's actually impossible to do so though in terms of working together, I mean how do you reconcile fighting for women's rights while attending sex-segregated rallies to show solidarity with Muslims and grab their vote? Same with gay rights I suppose, I mean the Labour party could never have taken Eddie Izzard on a wander around Bradford like they could in London could they? I think they are going to have to make decisions on this and let the people know exactly where they stand on issues without trying to bat for both teams on different grounds, a lot of this wouldn't have gone un-noticed with the electorate over the last month.

 

What was it that Thatcher believed - if you try and please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one? 

 

Unpleasant truth but given the way our voting system is it is definitely true. You need a united voting bloc come election time, and the Tories understand that very very well. Flip flopping doesn't tend to work.

 

Incidentally, you do know Eddie Izzard is totally het, right? 

[Guest MattP]

What was it that Thatcher believed - if you try and please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one? 

 

Unpleasant truth but given the way our voting system is it is definitely true. You need a united voting bloc come election time, and the Tories understand that very very well. Flip flopping doesn't tend to work.

 

Incidentally, you do know Eddie Izzard is totally het, right? 

 

Whatever Thatcher said she certainly would never have pandered with different opinions to different sets of people to grab votes, you've missed the point, it's not flip-flopping, it's saying one thing to a group of people but another thing to another, that's hypocrisy and more and more people are starting to notice just how hypocritical the left are with things like this.

 

I have no idea what Eddie Izzard is, I just know I don't ever want to be near him.

[leicsmac]

Whatever Thatcher said she certainly would never have pandered with different opinions to different sets of people to grab votes, you've missed the point, it's not flip-flopping, it's saying one thing to a group of people but another thing to another, that's hypocrisy and more and more people are starting to notice just how hypocritical the left are with things like this.

 

I have no idea what Eddie Izzard is, I just know I don't ever want to be near him.

 

I say flip-flop, you say hypocrisy, I say pot-a-to, you say po-tah-to. We mean the same thing - changing political views and policy based on the people you're talking to. 

 

I wasn't being disparaging regarding what either Thatcher or the right believe - I think on this they have it entirely right and I agree with you, given the way the voting system works in this country on some points you have to make a stand (and not change it) in order to build any kind of political base for power that won't get scattered come election time. It's something the right understand, and most of the left do not. 

[ADK]

It took some effort to come back with a worse riposte than Frank but you managed it.

 

It is nothing more than rubbish though. I think there is barely a statement which is correct.

[Webbo]

I remember seeing a Labour candidate in a picture posing next to Eddie Izzard in full drag and make up and I thought to myself what is it in this photo that Labour want me to see that's going to persuade me to vote for them?

[ADK]

It took some effort to come back with a worse riposte than Frank but you managed it.

 

If you want my analysis, I don't think ideals like "socialism" have ever had a strong bearing on recent British politics and certainly not Student politics. Students have always been more "liberal" than "socialist" and this persists today. Students protested tuition fees because they disagreed with that single issue, they didn't "take on British Conservatism", many of those protesting would have either voted Conservative or at least had conservative sympathies. To compare these protestors with SWP types would be like assuming anyone who was anti the Iraq war is the same as an ISIS member or anyone who is anti EU is in Combat 18. And why would the NUS be out protesting about the bedroom tax or Palestine?

 

 

The 2010 Student vote was about 21%CON, 24%LAB and 45%LD http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2894 (Not sure about accuracy but it seems reasonable)

 

In 2015 it was estimated at 26%CON 35%LAB 14%GRN 7%LD 4%UKP (Can't find the source)

 

If anything is happening, more students are being exposed to left politics (Greens), but that is because no moderate party is appealing to them.

 

I understand you didn't particularly enjoy your university experience, but I hope you don't genuinely think there are many "far left" people involved with universities.

 

As for why the Tories beat Labour I think the stats from this poll are telling: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx?view=wide

 

If you go by the age groupings and compare to 2010

 

For 18-24  LAB had a 1 point lead increased to 16.   (43% turnout)

For 25-34  CON had a 5 point lead, now LAB lead by 3. (54% turnout)

For 35-44  CON had a 3 point lead reduced to 0.  (64% turnout)

For 45-54  CON had a 6 point lead reduced to 3. (72% turnout)

For 55-64  CON had a 10 point lead reduced to 6. (77% turnout)

For 65+     CON had a 13 point lead increased to 24. (78% turnout)

 

So it wasn't a great flood of "hard working" people wanting to be saved from the spectre of socialism or people grateful to be emancipated from welfare dependency but a heavy gain amongst the increasingly populous and willing to vote, 65+ voter bloc.

 

We probably won't know by reading social media what made the 65+ vote go away from Labour. I imagine it didn't involve the NUS.

[Harry - LCFC]

Following on from the previous page, is British socialism dying? A piece from the Commentator.

 

[Article]

 

Personally I wouldn't say it's dying, but it's certainly on it's knees, as Webbo has pointed it's now over ten years even before I was born that Britain elected a socialist government and every time Labour goes to the left no one wants to vote for them apart from the absolute die hards who would vote Labour if Jimmy Savile was leader. Maybe Socialism has just had it's day? In a modern World where the richest are the ones who can up themselves and move if you implement all sorts of wealth taxes and massive income tax rates you would have to think bankrupcy wouldn't be far off anyway.

 

A lot of that is directed at student politics rather than left wing politics on a national level. I agree that the stuff you hear from students is often incredibly petty, arguing ferociously over trivial issues and forever tripping over themselves trying not to offend the wrong groups. But I don't think that commentary really applies to the Labour party.

 

I agree with Leicsmac, the wheel will continues to turn and Labour will, I think, inevitably be competing for office again at some point. Although I suspect a limited degree of fiscal responsibility will be a must from now on. I think the fact the Conservatives won as the party that intended to cut public spending shows there's been a change of mindset for the British electorate.

[Frank to be]

So basically the tories bought the grey vote and all these mythical "hard working families" who apparently voted tory don't actually exist.

[Guest]

So basically the tories bought the grey vote and all these mythical "hard working families" who apparently voted tory don't actually exist.

 

Webbo exists.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33053431

 

Anyone know why this is taking place in Dublin? Did the Union bosses fancy a jolly in Ireland? Or does Jeremy meeting his IRA comrades?

 

Honestly though what a shower, this really is reminding me of the Tories in the noughties.

[Guest MattP]

If anyone can hold of a Times today it's something every Labour supporter should read, huge four page spread with snippets from 40 interviews with leading party figures including Harman, Balls, Miliband, Blair etc about the time under Ed and their views and opinions from behind the scenes about what was happening, really interesting and it really does look like a total shambles from behind the scenes. I also forgot Miliband turned Alan Jonhson down for chancellor for Ed Balls, wtf.

 

Although even of the 40 they couldn't find who was responsible for the Edstone.

 

Watched a bit of the RMU Hustings yesterday, Burnham got a really rough ride from the members for saying he agrees with the benefit cap and doesn't think anyone on benefits should be able to claim more than a full working family earns, the unions really do seem to be the ones totally keeping the party from reality.

 

I think Cooper might just nick it on second preference votes, that would be ideal for the Tories, could pretty much base a decent campaign on Ed Balls purely on that - "You kept him out of number 11, now keep him out of number 10"

[Webbo]

I thought Alan Jonhson resigned as shadow chancellor?

[Guest MattP]

I thought Alan Jonhson resigned as shadow chancellor?

 

He did actually didn't he? I've got that wrong, he chose Balls over someone after that then, I can't remember now who it was.

[Kopfkino]

He did actually didn't he? I've got that wrong, he chose Balls over someone after that then, I can't remember now who it was.

He offered it to his brother again after AJ resigned

[Guest MattP]

https://supporters.labour.org.uk/candidates/1

 

Just £3 to sign up as a 'supporter' and get a vote on the Labour leadership election, well worth the money to vote for Corbyn.

[Rincewind]

Never thought he was your type Matt. Not sure  he is right for modern Labour  but he would give Cameron some headaches as  he stands for old Labour values.  Not joined  myself but a facebook group I use there are actually a few joining  to vote for him. Same ones who would not  vote Labour (or Tory) because they are too close to Tory. Well they ended up with the worst of two evils. Ovbiously not for everyone though.

 

TBH I have  not looked into the candidates in great  depth so will reserve judgement for the time being. Wont see any of them do much until the run in to the next elect and by then it will be too late again. I hate to see politics get in the way of compassion and caring for everyone regardless of their social status.

[Guest MattP]

I want him as leader as the damage he would do to the party but pretty much leave them powerless until I reach the grave.

 

I don't really understand how someone as left wing as him would give Cameron any headaches? I doubt there are many voters out there thinking Labour aren't left wing enough so I'm voting Tory.

 

To sum this up, it looks like he's going to be too left wing to win an election voted on by Unions and Labour Party members - so how on earth does anything think he could win a General election when the British public are voting on it.

[Guest MattP]

Best £3 ever this.

 

[Rincewind]

I want him as leader as the damage he would do to the party but pretty much leave them powerless until I reach the grave.

 

I don't really understand how someone as left wing as him would give Cameron any headaches? I doubt there are many voters out there thinking Labour aren't left wing enough so I'm voting Tory.

 

To sum this up, it looks like he's going to be too left wing to win an election voted on by Unions and Labour Party members - so how on earth does anything think he could win a General election when the British public are voting on it.

I agree. There are not enough Labour voters wanting  a true left wing Labour leader. By headache  I mean challenging policies unlike a Blairite would. He would make more headlines than a right focused leader would. Good thing or bad thing I do not know. I prefer to wait and see. Getting too old to worry about it all now. I just want a quiet life.

[Guest MattP]

I agree. There are not enough Labour voters wanting  a true left wing Labour leader. By headache  I mean challenging policies unlike a Blairite would. He would make more headlines than a right focused leader would. Good thing or bad thing I do not know. I prefer to wait and see. Getting too old to worry about it all now. I just want a quiet life.

 

And why would they? No point sitting on the opposition benches for twenty years.

 

The Tories realised in about 2005-6 they simply can't be as right wing as a lot of the memebership wanted so they came towards the centre, they are now reaping the rewards from that despite apparantly losing most of their traditional voters.

[Frank to be]

Labour could still win on left wing politics. People are fundamentally good so will fundamentally lean to the left. All it will take is for a strong leader to convince some of the middle that a more liberal, progressive society is for the better and that it's not all about profit. Let's not forget that the tories only won by buying old people votes. It'd not as if the country has fundamentally shifted to the right. At our best we're still a vibrant, multicultural, European nation. The right wing knuckledraggers are still but a noisy minority.