Post Election Blues

[Ollie93]

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/11121393_10153239514946768_32026638_n.jpg?oh=6aa0900a7048471c2daa42e3a8c33760&oe=5553D15C

 

Saw this and thought it was worth a share tbh.

[purpleronnie]

No mate, I'm talking about the scare stories about everything from the NHS being shut down to the police force being disbanded.;

 

I know you are in France so I'm not sure if you watched the leadership debates but Nicola Sturgeon actually said the words "I will make you Prime Minister" to Ed Miliband, so it was far from a scare story, Miliband eventually ruled this out a few weeks later but it was clearly a total lie as Ed Balls, Andy Burham and Caroline Flint all started saying on election night within the first hour or so that if Cameron couldn't command a majority government all options were open, the British people knew he was lying and they were proven right within minutes of the exit polls being produced..

 

I took the piss out of someone moaning about the Tories in the pub on Friday, I told him Glenfield hospital had already been boarded up and he said deadly serious 'not surprised, won;t be the last' - that's the sort of nonsense we are dealing with over here at the minute.

it's true the scare stories going around, but it's a minority as always, but you can't fail but worry about the cuts that continue to happen despite Cameron stating they wouldn't make any.  Privatisation is another concern especially since the Health & Social Care Act has seen it soar.  As for paying for the NHS well despite Cameron stating it won't happen Nick Seddon advoated it, given that REFORM has suggested redefining the NHS so we could pay for it is worrying mattp.  And then theres the £22 billion cuts wound up to show £8billion increases.

 

You seem incapable of ever criticising or doubting the tories, I've never understood this.  And that goes for Labour voters too, they'll defend everything to the hilt makes no sense, there's good and bad in both parties.

[Hirsty The Blue 94]

No mate, I'm talking about the scare stories about everything from the NHS being shut down to the police force being disbanded.;

I know you are in France so I'm not sure if you watched the leadership debates but Nicola Sturgeon actually said the words "I will make you Prime Minister" to Ed Miliband, so it was far from a scare story, Miliband eventually ruled this out a few weeks later but it was clearly a total lie as Ed Balls, Andy Burham and Caroline Flint all started saying on election night within the first hour or so that if Cameron couldn't command a majority government all options were open, the British people knew he was lying and they were proven right within minutes of the exit polls being produced..

I took the piss out of someone moaning about the Tories in the pub on Friday, I told him Glenfield hospital had already been boarded up and he said deadly serious 'not surprised, won;t be the last' - that's the sort of nonsense we are dealing with over here at the minute.

Same with both sides though. Both sides use lazy stereotypes to discredit the other. For Labour it's the NHS and Tories it's the economy, it's just the way it is.

[Guest MattP]

it's true the scare stories going around, but it's a minority as always, but you can't fail but worry about the cuts that continue to happen despite Cameron stating they wouldn't make any.  Privatisation is another concern especially since the Health & Social Care Act has seen it soar.  As for paying for the NHS well despite Cameron stating it won't happen Nick Seddon advoated it, given that REFORM has suggested redefining the NHS so we could pay for it is worrying mattp.  And then theres the £2 billion cuts wound up to show £8billion increases.

 

You seem incapable of ever criticising or doubting the tories, I've never understood this.  And that goes for Labour voters too, they'll defend everything to the hilt makes no sense, there's good and bad in both parties.

 

Cameron has not said they wouldn't make any cuts at all, he's been quite open about how some services will be suffering cuts, I think anyone with half a brain would realise a country with a 1.5trillion debt and running at a deficit of 90 billion is going to have to implement some things, the people of England now seem to also realise this after they rejected the so called anti-austerity parties.

 

The last sentence is just nonsense, I've criticised the Tories for numerous things over the years in virtually ever area, extensively over immigration and the position on Europe.

[Guest]

You seem incapable of ever criticising or doubting the tories, I've never understood this.  And that goes for Labour voters too, they'll defend everything to the hilt makes no sense, there's good and bad in both parties.

 

This!

 

The Tory and Lab fighters on this forum both suffer from the same problem.

 

And yet in other areas they are perfectly happen to see two sides and the good and bad in one side.

[Webbo]

Listening to Kevin Maguire now and like a lot on the left still don't seem to get it - most people want to emulate the rich and successful, not envy them.

 

Labour will never win an election until they start chasing the Webbo vote rather than the Rincewind one.

I'd advise them not to bother, never going to happen.

 

So much for Cameron's pledge that pensiors benefis would not be touched.

One broken promise down.  Not bad after 4 days.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/iain-duncan-smith-targets-poor-3109721

Aren't you the bloke who's too clever to believe anything in the Mail?

[Alf Bentley]

Labour will never win an election until they start chasing the Webbo vote rather than the Rincewind one.

 

 

I'd advise them not to bother, never going to happen.

 

 

I was going to say the same. As a leftist, I'd be more optimistic about winning the MattP vote than the Webbo vote. In fact, I'd be more optimistic about winning the Call Me Dave vote than the Webbo vote! 

[Guest]

I was going to say the same. As a leftist, I'd be more optimistic about winning the MattP vote than the Webbo vote. In fact, I'd be more optimistic about winning the Call Me Dave vote than the Webbo vote! 

 

Yeah, as reasonable as Webbo is in most areas, his anti-labour diatribe is amazingly closed-minded.

[Guest MattP]

I was going to say the same. As a leftist, I'd be more optimistic about winning the MattP vote than the Webbo vote. In fact, I'd be more optimistic about winning the Call Me Dave vote than the Webbo vote! 

 

Think I've said to you before that had I been 2 years older I would have probably voted Labour in 1997. Don't ever see it happening now though given what I've seen of them growing up.

[Alf Bentley]

Think I've said to you before that had I been 2 years older I would have probably voted Labour in 1997. Don't ever see it happening now though given what I've seen of them growing up.

 

I remember you saying that you were sympathetic to the Libs in your youth (unless I'm misremembering), but wasn't aware that you'd considered the Reds. What changed for you between 1997 and 2001, when you would have been old enough to vote, but presumably voted Tory? After all, 1997-2001 was the period when Blair stuck to Tory spending plans (for 3 years), business was booming and the economy was prospering....

 

I find it interesting where personal political loyalties originate from, and why these change or don't change. What are the fundamental values, influences or beliefs that caused you - or Webbo - to acquire the loyalties you have?

 

I think my main influences were/are: (1) My Dad's humane, intellectual leftist approach to politics (my Mum was a leftist, too, but was more knee-jerk, "up with the under-dog", which grated on me); (2) The non-materialist approach to life that Leicsmac mentions above, namely that what matters in life is what you do, not what you possess (partly instinctive in me, I think, partly the influence of friends in early adulthood); (3) Growing up during the punk/post-punk era, and in the backwash of beatnik influences (rough travel, hitch-hiking etc.); (4) Having a tough time as a teenager, not fitting in with the small-c conservative conformist values of the Kent grammar school I attended - then growing strong in reaction to that & in opposition to those values; (5) A particular friend, 5 years older than me (the bloke who drank himself to death 2.5 years ago), who was a major influence in early adulthood; (6) A 1981 philosophy seminar about determinism & the necessary delusion of free will, reinforcing my atheism.

 

(2) to (6) are probably the reasons why I'm as much a dyed-in-the-wool leftist as Webbo is a Tory; (1) is probably the reason why I still shift around a bit on the left, and am not an uncritical partisan of Labour or any other left group.

 

Yes, I knew you'd all find that fascinating! 

[Rincewind]

Same for me and what I saw under theThatcher years I have seen more Governments in power Tory and Labour and don't care much for either but if I had to choose I would side  with Labour if only that I value  people and  their well-being more than money.

 

I can reccomend a book if you want to read about the stockmarket crash eral. It is called  Meltdown by Ben Elton. OK so he is a bit of a leftie but he tells a good story. It concerns a bloke who rises to the top wheeling and dealing with investments. Even buys an whole street that he remortgages his three storey house for. Then he loses everything. He and his family end up living on jobseekers. No nanny no private school for their son. He also has a college friend who is a junior minister in the Govt caught up in the expenses scandal.

 

Despite the continual accusations I do not  envy others with money. Money is all relative to your  lifestyle. I am not intersted in mountains of possessions or making money. Once you get to the top there is only one way to go. Down.

I have enough income for the lifestyle I want. I have no need for a four car garage or a mansion so why aspiref for them.I believe a  fair society  is more important than money so when  I see people caring more about what they can get with no though of how it affects others I feel a little annoyed although that may be the wrong word.I feel a little sorry for people whos only goal in life is to show off their wealth.I envy those that have compassion and empathy  who work their arse off to help others.

[MooseBreath]

Amazing how all these lefties aren't interested in money but one mention of some benefits being cut and they go absolutely bat shit.

Would it to be too much to ask the lefties to concede that sometimes just giving people money isn't actually helping them at all? Often people are actually much happier providing for themselves, and if benefit cuts are an effective way to push them into work then that's surely a good thing?

[Guest MattP]

I remember you saying that you were sympathetic to the Libs in your youth (unless I'm misremembering), but wasn't aware that you'd considered the Reds. What changed for you between 1997 and 2001, when you would have been old enough to vote, but presumably voted Tory? After all, 1997-2001 was the period when Blair stuck to Tory spending plans (for 3 years), business was booming and the economy was prospering....

 

I find it interesting where personal political loyalties originate from, and why these change or don't change. What are the fundamental values, influences or beliefs that caused you - or Webbo - to acquire the loyalties you have?

 

I think my main influences were/are: (1) My Dad's humane, intellectual leftist approach to politics (my Mum was a leftist, too, but was more knee-jerk, "up with the under-dog", which grated on me); (2) The non-materialist approach to life that Leicsmac mentions above, namely that what matters in life is what you do, not what you possess (partly instinctive in me, I think, partly the influence of friends in early adulthood); (3) Growing up during the punk/post-punk era, and in the backwash of beatnik influences (rough travel, hitch-hiking etc.); (4) Having a tough time as a teenager, not fitting in with the small-c conservative conformist values of the Kent grammar school I attended - then growing strong in reaction to that & in opposition to those values; (5) A particular friend, 5 years older than me (the bloke who drank himself to death 2.5 years ago), who was a major influence in early adulthood; (6) A 1981 philosophy seminar about determinism & the necessary delusion of free will, reinforcing my atheism.

 

(2) to (6) are probably the reasons why I'm as much a dyed-in-the-wool leftist as Webbo is a Tory; (1) is probably the reason why I still shift around a bit on the left, and am not an uncritical partisan of Labour or any other left group.

 

Yes, I knew you'd all find that fascinating! 

 

I was very liberal at that age (I still am i terms of the state staying out of people's lives) but It's hard to remember why I would have voted Labour in 1997 and Tory in 2001. There was a lot of hate for the Tories by 1997 and they were clearly on the way out, Blair was a great tubthumper and my hero's at the time ie Noel Gallagher etc were telling me how great New Labour was going to be, maybe it was a small stint at Uni when I started to look at 'the left' as a whole in a very different way. Maybe I was taken in by Tony Blair's pledge that every child in every school would have a laptop (I always remembered that manifesto commitment, no idea why, how ridiclous what that), whatever it was it faded very very quickly afterwards.

 

I was certainly a huge fan of William Hague at the time and had a genuine belief we were going to be taken into the Euro, I remember quite a bit of sleaze in those earlier years (Mandleson) and I was against the war in Kosovo, Ken Livingstone also became London Mayor. My memory is buggered though from a personel level as I was out 5/6 nights a week back then.

 

My Main influences on my Conservative poltiics is that I simply believe people spend money better than Governments do, I believe in aspiration, maybe that's way I was actually attracted to Labour in 97', a lot do say Blair was a Conservative. I suppose my family would be a influence as well, a family full of Labour voters until they had the chance under Thatcher to get out of a council estate and into the suburbs. Who knows where I would be without that?

 

This last week has made me feel more strongly Conservative than ever as well, more and more so as those on the left continue to misrepresent, lie and scaremonger about what this government could do with no real evidence, I'm actually considering joining the party again, I think what you said last week was spot on, if you want to change something it's better to get involved and do it yourself rather than go to an extreme and try to drag them with you.

 

I'm happy with where the party is though, compassionate Conservatism with more social Liberalism is the way forward, if it does that it will remain electable and the party will continue to be the most successful one in history.

 

The Socialists can scheme their schemes and the Liberals can dream their dreams, but Conservatives have work to do.

[Sir Fynwy]

Amazing how all these lefties aren't interested in money but one mention of some benefits being cut and they go absolutely bat shit.

Would it to be too much to ask the lefties to concede that sometimes just giving people money isn't actually helping them at all? Often people are actually much happier providing for themselves, and if benefit cuts are an effective way to push them into work then that's surely a good thing?

Are you promoting a black economy model?

[MooseBreath]

Are you promoting a black economy model?

Not at all.

[Guest]

Amazing how all these lefties aren't interested in money but one mention of some benefits being cut and they go absolutely bat shit.

 

 

I think you've misunderstood these "lefties" again. They all want/need money they just don't need excessive amounts to be happy.

[MooseBreath]

I think you've misunderstood these "lefties" again. They all want/need money they just don't need excessive amounts to be happy.

Great, then they won't mind not having as much money when benefits are cut. Let me guess, yyou're going to try to tell me they need that money? Need it for what? Being in the pub every single day, smoking, drugs, getting the bus to court. Watch benefits street, it's the closest you'll ever get to seeing what people on benefits are really like. Don't try to disagree, unless you add the caveat that you don't live in the UK, haven't done for many years, and have absolutely no idea what welfare dependency culture is doing to people in this country.

[Guest]

Great, then they won't mind not having as much money when benefits are cut. Let me guess, yyou're going to try to tell me they need that money? Need it for what? Being in the pub every single day, smoking, drugs, getting the bus to court. Watch benefits street, it's the closest you'll ever get to seeing what people on benefits are really like. Don't try to disagree, unless you add the caveat that you don't live in the UK, haven't done for many years, and have absolutely no idea what welfare dependency culture is doing to people in this country.

 

Please don't tell me what I'll say - you have no idea.

 

Benefits street is as real as big Brother - or your other favourite Real housewives of Atlanta.

[Guest MattP]

Please don't tell me what I'll say - you have no idea.

 

Benefits street is as real as big Brother - or your other favourite Real housewives of Atlanta.

 

How do you manage to come out with such forthright statements when you have also admitted you haven't even watched it?

[TimG]

Great, then they won't mind not having as much money when benefits are cut. Let me guess, yyou're going to try to tell me they need that money? Need it for what? Being in the pub every single day, smoking, drugs, getting the bus to court. Watch benefits street, it's the closest you'll ever get to seeing what people on benefits are really like. Don't try to disagree, unless you add the caveat that you don't live in the UK, haven't done for many years, and have absolutely no idea what welfare dependency culture is doing to people in this country.

 

FIF is right, Benefits Street is a ridiculous and one-sided piece of conservative propaganda designed to create this kind of hatred and prejudice. It helps people like you to scapegoat the poor and vulnerable so that you can feel less guilty about voting for a £12bn cut from welfare spending.

[Guest MattP]

FIF is right, Benefits Street is a ridiculous and one-sided piece of conservative propaganda designed to create this kind of hatred and prejudice. It helps people like you to scapegoat the poor and vulnerable so that you can feel less guilty about voting for a £12bn cut from welfare spending.

 

You can tell you haven't been on here long if you think Moose would feel guilty about voting for a party that cuts benefit spending.

[Guest]

How do you manage to come out with such forthright statements when you have also admitted you haven't even watched it?

 

I've seen the trailers and the read the write-ups. And of course I read your fullsome comments.

 

You manage to speak about hundreds of areas that you've never experienced including Socialism and an Ed Milliband govt. - I presume you do it the same way.

[Webbo]

FIF is right, Benefits Street is a ridiculous and one-sided piece of conservative propaganda designed to create this kind of hatred and prejudice. It helps people like you to scapegoat the poor and vulnerable so that you can feel less guilty about voting for a £12bn cut from welfare spending.

Not necessary, I didn't feel guilty in the first place.

[Guest MattP]

I've seen the trailers and the read the write-ups. And of course I read your fullsome comments.

 

You manage to speak about hundreds of areas that you've never experienced including Socialism and an Ed Milliband govt. - I presume you do it the same way.

 

Comment on a TV show from a trailer? My 'fullsome comments' were about three lines and one of those was expressing disgust at the way one of the residents was treated by the media.

 

How do you know I've never experience Socialism? An Ed Miliband government? What are you going on about? Are you saying we shouldn't give opinions on any potential World leader now as we haven't experienced what it would be like under them? Your political posts have been getting weirder this last week.

[Guest]

Comment on a TV show from a trailer? My 'fullsome comments' were about three lines and one of those was expressing disgust at the way one of the residents was treated by the media.

 

How do you know I've never experience Socialism? An Ed Miliband government? What are you going on about? Are you saying we shouldn't give opinions on any potential World leader now as we haven't experienced what it would be like under them? Your political posts have been getting weirder this last week.

 

You gave pages of comments on the first Welfare benefits show.

 

And I'm saying we should comment - you are the one saying that if a person hasn't experienced something they shouldn't comment - re benefits show. Get your arguments sorted out man.