Strokes Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 It does if you're an EU out sympathiser. If you're an EU in sympathiser then it looks like they have a set of rules agreed by everyone in the EU which they can't just change for individual countries. To me he just seems hopeless and his poor attempt of appeasement was ill thought out and certianly didn't go far enough to change the "we want out" voters minds. It's as Matt said, it's either roll with the EU empire and become a state of Europe or Leave and see what happens. There is no room for negotiation on this, the ins and the outs are just too far apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 It does if you're an EU out sympathiser. If you're an EU in sympathiser then it looks like they have a set of rules agreed by everyone in the EU which they can't just change for individual countries. To me he just seems hopeless and his poor attempt of appeasement was ill thought out and certianly didn't go far enough to change the "we want out" voters minds. His demands have been pathetically weak and the fact that the rest of the EU think he's bluffing mean they haven't even tried to meet him half way. The idea that he's doing this deliberately to get us out, especially after how he's silenced his ministers who want to campaign to get out, seems ridiculously far fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 His demands have been pathetically weak and the fact that the rest of the EU think he's bluffing mean they haven't even tried to meet him half way. The idea that he's doing this deliberately to get us out, especially after how he's silenced his ministers who want to campaign to get out, seems ridiculously far fetched. As you state his demands have been pathetically weak so why do you find it far-fetched that he really wants the UK out? Do you think that even if the EU agreed to them they would have affected any change in voting circumstances? Your statement that the rest of the EU thinks he's bluffing is uninformed and rather stupid. Meeting halfway is also a rather bizarre notion. perhaps neither you nor Cameron actually understand what the EU is. Personally I think that at least Cameron does and has made "pathetically weak" demands because he wants the EU out vote to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 It's as Matt said, it's either roll with the EU empire and become a state of Europe or Leave and see what happens. There is no room for negotiation on this, the ins and the outs are just too far apart. To some extent I agree with you. However the use of EU Empire shows your stance and I disagree with the "state of Europe" premise. We are presently in the EU and we are not a "state" of Europe - it's an ignorant and fearful argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 Cameron is a weak leader who has been fortunate to come up against such a pathetic opposition, it's not surprising he has failed in his renegotiated EU before it has even begun. If only the out lobby could Unite on this, it would be like taking candy from a baby but unfortunately to many want to be centre stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 Cameron is a weak leader who has been fortunate to come up against such a pathetic opposition, it's not surprising he has failed in his renegotiated EU before it has even begun. If only the out lobby could Unite on this, it would be like taking candy from a baby but unfortunately to many want to be centre stage. Can't see the out lobby losing at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 As you state his demands have been pathetically weak so why do you find it far-fetched that he really wants the UK out? Do you think that even if the EU agreed to them they would have affected any change in voting circumstances? Your statement that the rest of the EU thinks he's bluffing is uninformed and rather stupid. Meeting halfway is also a rather bizarre notion. perhaps neither you nor Cameron actually understand what the EU is. Personally I think that at least Cameron does and has made "pathetically weak" demands because he wants the EU out vote to succeed. Now I didn't call you stupid, lets leave the personal stuff out shall we? Cameron has said that none of his ministers can speak in favour of leaving until the negotiations have finished but he's not stopping anyone urging us to stay in. Suddenly all the pro leaving ministers seem to be backing the remain campaign. There is a subtle manipulation of the campaign in favour of remain. If he really wanted us to pull out why isn't he campaigning for it? It would seem to be the easier thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 Now I didn't call you stupid, lets leave the personal stuff out shall we? Cameron has said that none of his ministers can speak in favour of leaving until the negotiations have finished but he's not stopping anyone urging us to stay in. Suddenly all the pro leaving ministers seem to be backing the remain campaign. There is a subtle manipulation of the campaign in favour of remain. If he really wanted us to pull out why isn't he campaigning for it? It would seem to be the easier thing to do. Get over yourself Webbo. I didn't call you stupid, I said your statement was stupid. I don't think you understand the situation sufficiently so I'll stop there in order not to be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 Get over yourself Webbo. I didn't call you stupid, I said your statement was stupid. I don't think you understand the situation sufficiently so I'll stop there in order not to be banned. You won't be banned for that, I promise. Explain why he isn't campaigning to leave if that's what he wants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 30 January 2016 Author Share Posted 30 January 2016 I would suggest that his demand are weak because after his initial go around felt that was the best he could get but since then those that were prepared to give a little have changed their minds somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 You won't be banned for that, I promise. Explain why he isn't campaigning to leave if that's what he wants? In short because of his previous proclamations and not wanting to be seen as weak and another U-Turn PM. Which of course he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 In short because of his previous proclamations and not wanting to be seen as weak and another U-Turn PM. Which of course he is. You're right I don't understand. If, as you've suggested the out campaign are bound to win, then campaigning for that and winning will make him a hero. If he campaigns to stay in and we leave he'll have to to resign. It doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 You're right I don't understand. If, as you've suggested the out campaign are bound to win, then campaigning for that and winning will make him a hero. If he campaigns to stay in and we leave he'll have to to resign. It doesn't make any sense. The out campaign are only bound to win if Cameron continues to sabotage the 'in" campaign, otherwise it's going to be a close run thing. There will be no "heroes" only losers. If I understand correctly he is standing down at the end of this parliament anyway so he wouldn't need to resign. And any transition will take 2 years (at least). He got away with not being the man who lost Scotland and disbanded the UK, he may yet be seen in history as the man who led the UK into unitary oblivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 30 January 2016 Share Posted 30 January 2016 The out campaign are only bound to win if Cameron continues to sabotage the 'in" campaign, otherwise it's going to be a close run thing. There will be no "heroes" only losers. If I understand correctly he is standing down at the end of this parliament anyway so he wouldn't need to resign. And any transition will take 2 years (at least). He got away with not being the man who lost Scotland and disbanded the UK, he may yet be seen in history as the man who led the UK into unitary oblivion. He'll still have resign so he won't come out of it looking good. I still don't understand why he wouldn't be campaigning to leave if that's what he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMX11 Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 A red card system now. I assume it will be equally as bad as the yellow card one made previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 2 February 2016 Author Share Posted 2 February 2016 Will they introduce video replays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 Will they introduce video replays? Nah but FFP is, if our GDP is better than Kosovo's we get a total trade embargo and default on the deficit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 2 February 2016 Author Share Posted 2 February 2016 Draft EU deal delivers 'substantial' reforms - Cameron http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35467479 Migration: The prime minister got his emergency welfare brake. But it is not clear how easy it will be to pull that brake or how long it will last, says the BBC's James Landale. Benefits: While the in-work benefits of EU migrants will be curbed for four years if other countries agree, they will be gradually restored the longer they stay in the UK. EU migrants will be able to send child benefit back home, but would get a lower level if the cost of living in the country where the child is is lower. Mr Cameron had wanted to block all of it. Sovereignty: The PM has secured a clear legal statement that the UK is not committed to further political integration and that the phrase "ever closer union" cannot be used to integrate the EU further. But it is not yet clear when or how this will be incorporated into the EU treaties. He has also got new powers for national parliaments to block new EU laws but the thresholds are pretty high before those powers can be used. Competitiveness: The PM has got some language that commits the EU to strengthen the internal market and cut red tape. But they have been promising to do that for years. Protecting non-euro countries: There will be a new mechanism to get the eurozone to think again about decisions that could hit the City of London. Security: The PM has got some unexpected gains, making it easier for countries to stop terror suspects coming into the country even if the threat they pose is not imminent. There will also be a crackdown to stop people using sham marriages and other loopholes to gain access to the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 The reforms are better than nothing but I don't think they're enough to change my vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 Does Cameron really expect anyone to buy this? It's not significant, it's barely even relevent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 2 February 2016 Author Share Posted 2 February 2016 Even the relevant has lots of maybes and might bes attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 "It says Mr Cameron's demand to exempt Britain from the EU principle of "ever closer union" between member states would be written into a future treaty." Basically they'll make a vague reference to it then ignore it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 February 2016 Share Posted 2 February 2016 The reforms are better than nothing but I don't think they're enough to change my vote. Are they enough to change anybody's vote? I don't think so. Does Cameron really expect anyone to buy this? It's not significant, it's barely even relevent. Exactly what I've been saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 3 February 2016 Share Posted 3 February 2016 All I keep hearing from Labour is that they want to stay in a reformed EU, can anyone explain what this is and how they will try to go about achieving it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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