Harry - LCFC Posted 3 February 2016 Share Posted 3 February 2016 All I keep hearing from Labour is that they want to stay in a reformed EU, can anyone explain what this is and how they will try to go about achieving it? As is the case with a lot of things politicians say I don't believe they're describing a goal they hope to achieve. I suspect it's merely a rhetorical ploy they've decided to use to present themselves as mildly against an institution they know is not entirely popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ousefox Posted 3 February 2016 Share Posted 3 February 2016 Anybody have any idea how he is planning on asserting the authority of a sovereign Parliament? Being a member of the EU is never going to let him do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlueBrett Posted 3 February 2016 Share Posted 3 February 2016 He can come back with whatever assurances he wants but it changes nothing. If people don't have faith in the EU or Westminster establishment to keep their promises then the whole negotiation process is essentially pointless. Also, people aren't stupid enough not to realise that there is nothing whatsoever to stop any future British government from overturning any reforms if they happen to have a different stance on how 'integrated' we should be. Worse still, EU officials know enough about process to understand that once a referendum has taken place the OUT campaign will have exhausted its political capital. If they lose there will be no prospect of another referendum for decades and with that in mind, why the hell wouldn't they make a load of promises to get their way when there is literally nothing that can be done to hold them to account afterwards? Fortunately I feel like this is fairly obvious and consequently people are already viewing the proposed 'reforms' with skepticism. No amount of attempted rationalising or compromise is going to make a blind bit of difference in this debate. Nobody really has any idea what the implications of an exit would be so it basically comes down to gut feel in or gut feel out. We just need the referendum to happen and then, once we have answered the big question one way or another, it will actually be worthwhile to start negotiating details. Until then it's a complete waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 The average voter doesn't trust a British politician and absolutely distrust a foreign politician. Cameron must be very disconnected from his people if he really wants to stay in. People are often frightened of change but here their dislike of the idea of European power over them (which really is no more frightening that UK power over them) is far stronger. I can only see one result at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 The average voter doesn't trust a British politician and absolutely distrust a foreign politician. Cameron must be very disconnected from his people if he really wants to stay in. People are often frightened of change but here their dislike of the idea of European power over them (which really is no more frightening that UK power over them) is far stronger. I can only see one result at the moment. We can vote out the UK govt, we can't vote out the European commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 We can vote out the UK govt, we can't vote out the European commission. How would you advocate electing the European Commission? Pan-European elections? Might end up with an all-German Commission, or no representation for smaller nations. UK elections for the 2 European Commissioners appointed by the UK Govt? Might be workable, though obviously we couldn't expect to elect the 2 Commissioners appointed by Germany, the 1 appointed by Latvia or whatever. If we want all our representatives to be elected in the UK only, then surely we'd have to reject all pooling of sovereignty, leave the EU and operating entirely as a nation state, competing or negotiating with all other European nations over every issue, as required? Can we vote out the UK Govt? I can only help to vote Jon Ashworth in/out as MP for Leicester South, not the Tory in Charnwood or the entire govt. In theory, I could help vote Ashworth or my MEPs out if they supported the appointment of a European Commissioner I disapproved of. I'm not against the idea of an elected Commission, I'm just not sure how it would be elected. Of course, the dominant political bodies in the EU are still the European Council & Councils of Ministers - comprising the national political leaders, PMs & ministers of each country. It's just that national political parties - and Eurosceptics - like to blame "Brussels" for everything, so as to avoid responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 I wouldnt advocate voting in the commission, I'd advocate doing without it. All I want is a free trade area with the details worked out between govts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 I wouldnt advocate voting in the commission, I'd advocate doing without it. All I want is a free trade area with the details worked out between govts. Pointless objecting that we can't vote out the Commission, then. Just advocate withdrawal from the EU and the negotiation of an EU-UK free trade deal. Limiting the EU to a free trade area isn't an option, though, as all 27 other states currently want it to be more than that. I'm sure an EU-UK free trade deal could be arranged, Whether it would be on terms that suit the UK is another matter. We're a significant power/market in Europe so would have some influence, but the other 27 EU nations would have more. I certainly can't imagine the rest of the EU agreeing to the sort of terms that Tory and right-wing Eurosceptics want to see: a free market for the UK to compete based on low pay, low tax, low public spending, social squalor and high inequality. I should imagine that the Calais migrant camp would move straight to Dover, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Pointless objecting that we can't vote out the Commission, then. Just advocate withdrawal from the EU and the negotiation of an EU-UK free trade deal. Limiting the EU to a free trade area isn't an option, though, as all 27 other states currently want it to be more than that. I'm sure an EU-UK free trade deal could be arranged, Whether it would be on terms that suit the UK is another matter. We're a significant power/market in Europe so would have some influence, but the other 27 EU nations would have more. I certainly can't imagine the rest of the EU agreeing to the sort of terms that Tory and right-wing Eurosceptics want to see: a free market for the UK to compete based on low pay, low tax, low public spending, social squalor and high inequality. I should imagine that the Calais migrant camp would move straight to Dover, too. Why? I'm pretty sure we would be able, I think we have a trade deficit with the EU so it would be in their interestd to do so as much as ours. Although it's fairly irrelevant anyway for me, far bigger issues than that make me want to leave and our exports and imports with the EU are only going to get smaller as time goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Pointless objecting that we can't vote out the Commission, then. Just advocate withdrawal from the EU and the negotiation of an EU-UK free trade deal. Limiting the EU to a free trade area isn't an option, though, as all 27 other states currently want it to be more than that. I'm sure an EU-UK free trade deal could be arranged, Whether it would be on terms that suit the UK is another matter. We're a significant power/market in Europe so would have some influence, but the other 27 EU nations would have more. I certainly can't imagine the rest of the EU agreeing to the sort of terms that Tory and right-wing Eurosceptics want to see: a free market for the UK to compete based on low pay, low tax, low public spending, social squalor and high inequality. I should imagine that the Calais migrant camp would move straight to Dover, too. It was a response to fif saying we're just as much controlled by our govt as the eu. We can get rid of our govt we can't get rid of the commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Why? OK, that was a rhetorical exaggeration to suggest that the Calais migrant camp would move to Dover, but it certainly has the potential to stir the issue up. Under a bilateral Franco-British treaty, UK immigration are currently allowed to operate in France (at the Paris Gare du Nord as well as in the French Channel ports - and French airports, I presume) - and vice versa. Would that arrangement continue if the UK left the EU? Maybe the French would see it as beneficial for it to continue, but maybe they wouldn't. Maybe UK immigration controls would have to move back to Dover and London? That wouldn't force the UK to accept any new immigrants, but it would force them to deal with them on British soil and send them back, if rejected....potential chaos. It must be a right headache for the French policing a camp full of foreign nationals who want to be in the UK, not France - and dealing with the political fall-out at a time when migration and Islam are massively controversial over there. Would they be so cooperative if we had left the EU? Would they still diligently prevent migrants without appropriate documents from boarding trains, planes and ferries? Particularly if we were pursuing Tory/UKIP policies of "deregulation", "getting rid of red tape" and "flexible labour markets" i.e. competing on the basis of low tax, low standards of social and employment protection, limitations on the right to strike, and the abolition of all this "elf and safety nonsense" and "green mumbo-jumbo"? I think we should be accepting more migrants anyway - in a strictly controlled manner - but that's a different issue. 1.5m Syrian migrants in Lebanon and a similar number in Jordan, both countries with much smaller populations and less spare cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 It was a response to fif saying we're just as much controlled by our govt as the eu. We can get rid of our govt we can't get rid of the commission. Fair enough. I've made my point already. We'll never agree, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Fair enough. I've made my point already. We'll never agree, anyway. I hope we can agree on somethings. It's not necessarily a right/left issue. It's democracy versus bureaucracy, sovereign state versus federal Europe. It's a legitimate view to want more eu, the same or less. None of us have to fall out over these things, it's only opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 I hope we can agree on somethings. It's not necessarily a right/left issue. It's democracy versus bureaucracy, sovereign state versus federal Europe. It's a legitimate view to want more eu, the same or less. None of us have to fall out over these things, it's only opinions. Absolutely - and I've certainly not fallen out with you or anyone else. I'm all for more democracy - one of the reasons why I said that I liked the idea of an elected EU Commission. I'm also in favour of more devolution of power, away from both Brussels and Westminster, to local councils and communities, where this is feasible. You're correct that the EU referendum is not a left/right issue. I'm "left" and undecided. I'd welcome more contributions here from those with a left-wing perspective who favour "in" or "out" (or right-wingers who favour "in") as the thread tends to be dominated by right-wing Eurosceptics (not their/your fault, obviously,but limits the point of me getting involved). Anyway, got to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Emperor Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Absolutely - and I've certainly not fallen out with you or anyone else. I'm all for more democracy - one of the reasons why I said that I liked the idea of an elected EU Commission. I'm also in favour of more devolution of power, away from both Brussels and Westminster, to local councils and communities, where this is feasible. You're correct that the EU referendum is not a left/right issue. I'm "left" and undecided. I'd welcome more contributions here from those with a left-wing perspective who favour "in" or "out" (or right-wingers who favour "in") as the thread tends to be dominated by right-wing Eurosceptics (not their/your fault, obviously,but limits the point of me getting involved). Anyway, got to work... A left wing objection to the EU could be how it's a protectionist bloc that allows business elites to sell their goods at inflated prices within the union. Another could be that it also seems to be a very lucrative, taxpayer funded retirement plan for politicians. In general it's just another government institution set up to benefit the 'ruling class' at the expense of everybody else. Would these be considered Leftist objections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 A left wing objection to the EU could be how it's a protectionist bloc that allows business elites to sell their goods at inflated prices within the union. Another could be that it also seems to be a very lucrative, taxpayer funded retirement plan for politicians. In general it's just another government institution set up to benefit the 'ruling class' at the expense of everybody else. Would these be considered Leftist objections? Doesn't sound Leftist or Rightist. Just sounds like a lot of inaccurate, jaded cynicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 We can vote out the UK govt, we can't vote out the European commission. No you can't. Unless you mean all the UK and then you're just choosing a group of people to suit your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 I wouldnt advocate voting in the commission, I'd advocate doing without it. All I want is a free trade area with the details worked out between govts. What do you mean by a free trade area? And who is included in this area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMX11 Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 What do you mean by a free trade area? And who is included in this area? There is already a free trade area EFTA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 There is already a free trade area EFTA. Is that the 4 countries including liechtenstein and Iceland? Not really sure what the "rules" are for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Is that the 4 countries including liechtenstein and Iceland? Not really sure what the "rules" are for it. Number 1: You do not talk about EFTA. Number 2: Ten minute fag and coffee break at 11am sharp every Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 Number 1: You do not talk about EFTA. Number 2: Ten minute fag and coffee break at 11am sharp every Wednesday. Do they have to smoke outside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 What do you mean by a free trade area? And who is included in this area? The clue is in the words "free", "trade" and "area" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 The clue is in the words "free", "trade" and "area" I don't understand what you mean by "Free" I get the other two parts? Have you simplified the idea into selling in any country in Europe without any taxes or have you actually thought through everything that goes into trading a product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 February 2016 Share Posted 4 February 2016 I don't understand what you mean by "Free" I get the other two parts? Have you simplified the idea into selling in any country in Europe without any taxes or have you actually thought through everything that goes into trading a product? The commonly understood definition is without trade tariffs and artificial restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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