The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[davieG]

I'm leaning towards the out vote at the moment, I never did want or vote for (to stay in) a European Union that was both economic and political.

 

Working in Engineering Design I was always for a Common Market but this has gone too far. There are too many political and cultural differences and there is such a massive disparity economically, we can't even get unity in this small island of ours so what chance across the whole of an expanded Europe.

 

i see nothing but ongoing disagreements and intransigence that will forever hold back any meaningful productive unity for all the countries involved,

 

I'm still willing to be persuaded otherwise but nothing at the moment is giving me positive vibes.

[Webbo]

I don't care whether you are left/right or centre, is there anyone who can actually explain how Germany are getting away with what they are doing now to Greece?

 

The authoritarian heart of Europe and imperial intentions of them laid bare, Greek people vote for Anti Austerity government, in a referendum they confirm that opinion, elected prime minister then is told to reject that or be forced out. Parliament accepts.

 

Just what the ****ing hell is going on? his is nothing more than another treaty of Versailles.

 

Do countries in debt to the Eurozone just not hold elections anymore?

Sorry to break ranks Matt but I'm going to have to back Germany on this. The EU have written off a huge chunk of Greece's debt, chucked a load of aid at them and refinanced their loans and all Greece did in return was to reverse the austerity measures that they had agreed too.

 

In the referendum they voted to keep retiring in their 50s and to not bother paying their taxes, and I don't blame them for trying but the rest of Europe decided they weren't going to pick up the tab and I don't blame them either.

I'm leaning towards the out vote at the moment, I never did want or vote for (to stay in) a European Union that was both economic and political.

 

Working in Engineering Design I was always for a Common Market but this has gone too far. There are too many political and cultural differences and there is such a massive disparity economically, we can't even get unity in this small island of ours so what chance across the whole of an expanded Europe.

 

i see nothing but ongoing disagreements and intransigence that will forever hold back any meaningful productive unity for all the countries involved,

 

I'm still willing to be persuaded otherwise but nothing at the moment is giving me positive vibes.

I'm about 70% in favour of out atm but I could be persuaded.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Europe is bleeding us dry. Getting out of it is paramount.

 

A massive out from me and my family.

[davieG]

UK and the EU: Better off out or in?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642

[Christoph]

I used to be very pro EU but it's hard to believe there will be much benefit especially when you have countries like Switzerland, Norway or Iceland who don't seem to be sinking away from the EU ship. My only problem is that I feel we're more likely to get shafted by our own government if there are no EU regulations. This certainly is a tough one though.... Wasn't as clear cut as it was once I believe, especially with the migrant situation in Calais. 

[SMX11]

I used to be very pro EU but it's hard to believe there will be much benefit especially when you have countries like Switzerland, Norway or Iceland who don't seem to be sinking away from the EU ship. My only problem is that I feel we're more likely to get shafted by our own government if there are no EU regulations. This certainly is a tough one though.... Wasn't as clear cut as it was once I believe, especially with the migrant situation in Calais.

I'd prefer to be shafted by our own government as they are accountable to the electorate and regulation can be removed from goverment to goverment.

The EU appears to never want to reduce its body of law and only increases this regulatory burden (mostly due to it being lobbied by big corporations).

I think the EFTA option would be the most risk free means of leaving the EU.

[davieG]

Nick Clegg to warn EU exit could tear UK apart

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34309642

 

 

 

It's being torn apart anyway as the snp will fight for a 2nd referendum whether  we stay in or not.

[purpleronnie]

Nick Clegg to warn EU exit could tear UK apart

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34309642

 

 

 

It's being torn apart anyway as the snp will fight for a 2nd referendum whether  we stay in or not.

 

Losing scotland isn't quite the same as losing all of Europe.  Besides I don't think the SNP will be looking for a 2nd referendum...unless we vote to come out, scotland are very pro EU.

[Alf Bentley]

The SNP will aim for another independence referendum within a few years regardless, IF they think they've a good chance of winning it.

 

The UK voting to leave the EU and Scotland voting to stay in is just one of the potential routes to their goal....and potentially a quicker route than most. Otherwise, they'll probably have to wait at least another 3-4 years to hold another referendum.

 

 

The EU hasn't exactly made a good case for a "Yes" vote recently, has it? I'm thinking about the Greece debacle, lack of transparency over the Transatlantic free trade deal and the lack of a proper EU-wide organised response to the refugee/migrant crisis.

I'm saying that as someone who's instinctively pro-EU.

[bovril]

 

The EU hasn't exactly made a good case for a "Yes" vote recently, has it?

 

Indeed. Sometimes I find myself leaning towards the 'No' / 'Out' vote. But then can something that's opposed by Nigel Farage and John Redwood really be such a bad thing?

[Steven]

Indeed. Sometimes I find myself leaning towards the 'No' / 'Out' vote. But then can something that's opposed by Nigel Farage and John Redwood really be such a bad thing?

 

Not forgetting Bill Cash. 

[Carl the Llama]

The SNP will aim for another independence referendum within a few years regardless, IF they think they've a good chance of winning it.

 

The UK voting to leave the EU and Scotland voting to stay in is just one of the potential routes to their goal....and potentially a quicker route than most. Otherwise, they'll probably have to wait at least another 3-4 years to hold another referendum.

 

 

The EU hasn't exactly made a good case for a "Yes" vote recently, has it? I'm thinking about the Greece debacle, lack of transparency over the Transatlantic free trade deal and the lack of a proper EU-wide organised response to the refugee/migrant crisis.

I'm saying that as someone who's instinctively pro-EU.

That's just it.  In theory the EU makes perfect sense, in practice the men in charge have a bit of a habit of cocking stuff up.  For one thing they need to stop wasting money shipping off to Strasbourg every month, people have been saying it for years but the French cockblock it all just to keep the hoteliers and restaurateurs in business (hot tip, if your horeca industry relies on a specific 4 days of business out of each month then maybe they need to work harder on attracting local people to their joints).

[davieG]

Lord Lawson to lead UK EU exit group

• 2 hours ago
•  
• From the sectionUK Politics

Image copyrightPAImage captionLord Lawson said he thought it was unlikely the government would secure its desired reforms of the EU

Former Chancellor Lord Lawson is to lead a Conservative group pushing for a referendum vote to leave the EU.

The peer, who predicted the government would only secure "wafer thin" reforms in its renegotiations, will be president of Conservatives for Britain.

He said he would not share a platform with the rival Out campaign, UKIP-backed Leave.EU but said all were welcome to "rally" to his group.

Lord Lawson, chancellor from 1983 to 1989, set out his pitch in The Times.

He said he had accepted the position as president of Conservatives for Britain because he believed it was "far more likely" the government would be unable to secure the reforms it hoped for.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who has backed a separate 'Brexit' group, welcomed Lord Lawson's appointment but said the campaign had to "go beyond Westminster".

In June Prime Minister David Cameron launched his bid to renegotiate the UK's membership of the EU, saying British voters would not accept a "rigid" EU.

'Over-optimistic'

Among the demands the government has called for are more power for national parliaments over EU decisions, restricting the rights of EU migrants to claim some benefits in the UK and an opt out from the ambition of ever-closer union.

Conservatives for Britain is led in the House of Commons by MP Steve Baker, and includes former ministers Owen Paterson and John Redwood.

In his Times piece, Lord Lawson describes suggestions his group is "jumping the gun" by not waiting to see what reforms Mr Cameron achieves as an "over-optimistic calculation of the prime minister's chance of success".

The peer also says if the argument for the UK's exit of the EU is not made now, then "less moderate, xenophobic voices" will dominate the debate and the campaign will fail.

Lord Lawson writes: "A number of my colleagues in the Conservative party are waiting to see what the prime minister negotiates before deciding which way they will vote or whether they will campaign for 'in' or 'out'.

"We cannot afford to wait that long. If we leave the playing field vacant, less moderate, xenophobic voices will dominate the debate and we will fail as soon as the government, the major political parties, the CBI and trade unions declare they are backing the 'in' campaign".

Nigel Lawson: Profile Image copyrightPAImage captionThen Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher with Nigel Lawson in 1988

A self-proclaimed Tory radical and long serving chancellor in the 1980s, Nigel Lawson was a key ally of former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

After studying at Oxford University, he embarked on a career in journalism. He joined the Financial Times in 1956 and five years later became City Editor of the new Sunday Telegraph, then editor of The Spectator.

But Nigel Lawson had political ambitions, and after narrowly failing to win election to parliament in 1970 he entered the Commons in 1974 as MP for Blaby in Leicestershire. When Margaret Thatcher won the Conservative leadership in 1975, he became a key architect of Tory economic policy and after the 1979 election was appointed to the Treasury.

It was as chancellor that the then Mr Lawson made his greatest impact with dramatic cuts in income tax rates, a programme of privatisation of several key industries and extensive de-regulation. However, he opposed the poll tax and in 1989 resigned over a split in views with Mrs Thatcher's special adviser, Alan Walters.

Now 83 years old, Lord Lawson sits in the House of Lords. He is the father of food writer and celebrity chef Nigella Lawson and journalist Dominic Lawson.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, he said there was "no economic benefit" to being in the EU. The union could not be changed without treaty change, which "isn't going to be forthcoming" as it requires unanimous agreement of other members states, he said.

David Cameron has promised the referendum by the end of 2017, by which time he hopes to have reformed the UK's relationship with the EU.

Image copyrightAFP/Getty ImagesImage captionDavid Cameron has previously said the EU would not work unless it could show flexibility

The official campaigns to remain and to leave, which will be designated by the Electoral Commission, will benefit from extra resources.

The commission says it will choose the campaign which represents "to the greatest extent those campaigning for that outcome".

Earlier this month, UKIP leader Nigel Farage said his party would work "hand in hand" with a new "umbrella group" of anti-EU campaigners called Leave.EU and founded by former UKIP donor Arron Banks.

Asked whether he would share a platform with this organisation, Lord Lawson told Today: "No."

"We welcome others to come and support us, we are not going to support anybody else but we are open to all sorts of others from all parties and none to come and rally to the Conservatives for Britain group."

Image copyrightTwitter

UKIP's only MP, Douglas Carswell, has said his party must be willing to "work with anyone" and has suggested he may back Business for Britain, which has been in discussions with Conservatives for Britain about forming a joint campaign.

The Clacton MP had an angry exchange of views on the matter with Mr Banks at UKIP's conference.

Mr Cameron, Chancellor George Osborne and Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond have all been engaged in diplomatic talks on the UK's relationship with the EU.

The European Council's Donald Tusk said there was a will to help the UK, but he has previously said that values such as the freedom of movement to live and work within the UK "were not for sale".

[Guest MattP]

Good addition to the campaign.

 

I'm concerned about the way the "out" side is handling itself though, different groups popping up all over the place, it has to be a united front, for the first time it now looks like we've got a chance of winning this and to lose it by internal division would be shameful.

 

Farage should be taking a back seat, anyone who listens to Farage and likes what they hear are already on the "Out" side of the vote, leave the leading roles to businessmen and more moderate politicians from the left and right like Kate Hoey and David Davis, I have my doubts about certain UKIP MEP's as well, the way a couple have been talking this week you almost smell the fear that they might lose their huge salaries in the EU parliament and vanish from politics, if they aren't truly on board they should just get out.

 

At least Farage has been honest and said the country is more important than the party, if the party has to die so we can leave the EU then it's a sacrifice worth making. For the first time now the polls are showing the leave side leading ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_referendum_on_United_Kingdom_membership_of_the_European_Union#Standard_polling_on_EU_membership) dont blow it.

[purpleronnie]

Really concerned how close it's got in the polls, just shows how these things can change over a small abount of time.  Only in June there were record numbers in favour of staying in.

 

I believe very stronglyin staying IN, but to be honest I used to get so involved in politics especially the EU that it was getting in the way of my 'normal life'   

 

So if the worst does happen I'm already trying to brace myself by distancing myself from the referendum at the end of the day all I can do is vote and what ever happens happens. 

 

I would imagine scotland will then vote to leave the union because they are too sensible to remove themselves from the EU...which will hurt me just as much as leaving the EU.

[Guest MattP]

The "In" side will get a boost on the actual day, the status quo always does, I'll need to see consistent 55% out numbers before I think we have a chance.

I wish I could distance myself but I'm struggling, if we do blow this chance to regain control of sovereignty I think I'll struggle to care about politics again.

[purpleronnie]

The "In" side will get a boost on the actual day, the status quo always does, I'll need to see consistent 55% out numbers before I think we have a chance.

I wish I could distance myself but I'm struggling, if we do blow this chance to regain control of sovereignty I think I'll struggle to care about politics again.

Funny how we feel the same but for opposing reasons. 

 

Do you think Cameron wants to leave the EU even if he couldn't negotiate new terms?  I honestly can't see how he would.

[SMX11]

The way the EU has messed up every policy decision over the last decade or so and the continuing mistakes that will will no doubt happen over the next few years will increase that margin. No matter how well intended the project is it clearly has no democratic support in its overall goal.

 

While it won't resolve the current ineptness of the current political class, leaving will make them far more accountable which can only be a good thing.

 

I only wish this is start of the end of central planning but I am not that optimistic.

[Guest MattP]

Funny how we feel the same but for opposing reasons. 

 

Do you think Cameron wants to leave the EU even if he couldn't negotiate new terms?  I honestly can't see how he would.

 

Cameron is a Europhile, he didn't even want the referendum, it was only in there to fight UKIP and it would have been the first thing he gave away when he was bargaining for the coalition he expected.

 

The way the EU has messed up every policy decision over the last decade or so and the continuing mistakes that will will no doubt happen over the next few years will increase that margin. No matter how well intended the project is it clearly has no democratic support in its overall goal.

 

While it won't resolve the current ineptness of the current political class, leaving will make them far more accountable which can only be a good thing.

 

I only wish this is start of the end of central planning but I am not that optimistic.

 

Yep, you can be assured whatever the crisis they'll completely manage to fcuk it up, that's the EU. Accountability is one of the reasons I'll be voting to leave and one of the reasons the politicians love the place, they can continue to pick up the huge salaries whilst off loading all the important decisions elsewhere, it's also a cracking excuse to the problems they face when they have to explain why they can't do anything about it.

 

It's shame we are already in it, if we were an outsider looking in and voting on whether to actually join this project the vote wouldn't even be close.

[Alf Bentley]

Decent article on the unpredictability of the EU referendum and how it might pan out, including the role of anti-establishment sentiments, anti-EU leftists and the fear of change:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/09/eu-referendum-britain-out-europe-brexit

 

Right-wing MEP Daniel Hannan in there, rubbing his hands with glee at the rise of Euroscepticism on the left, with some justification.

 

Making Freedland's point about increasing Euroscepticism on the left, after the Greece debacle & the proposed Transatlantic free trade/investment deal (TTIP), Owen Jones:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic(dates from July)

 

Still don't know how I'll vote at this stage. Have always been instinctively pro-EU, not least as a moderating bulwark against neo-liberal economic/social policies at UK level. But if such policies are going to be enforced at EU level (Greece crisis, TTIP), that could turn me into an "Out" voter. I might be instinctively internationalist, but I'm also instinctively opposed to centralisation....so the idea of the Continental/Transatlantic centralised enforcement of Thatcherite ideology doesn't appeal one bit!

[Strokes]

Decent article on the unpredictability of the EU referendum and how it might pan out, including the role of anti-establishment sentiments, anti-EU leftists and the fear of change:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/09/eu-referendum-britain-out-europe-brexit

 

Right-wing MEP Daniel Hannan in there, rubbing his hands with glee at the rise of Euroscepticism on the left, with some justification.

 

Making Freedland's point about increasing Euroscepticism on the left, after the Greece debacle & the proposed Transatlantic free trade/investment deal (TTIP), Owen Jones:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic(dates from July)

 

Still don't know how I'll vote at this stage. Have always been instinctively pro-EU, not least as a moderating bulwark against neo-liberal economic/social policies at UK level. But if such policies are going to be enforced at EU level (Greece crisis, TTIP), that could turn me into an "Out" voter. I might be instinctively internationalist, but I'm also instinctively opposed to centralisation....so the idea of the Continental/Transatlantic centralised enforcement of Thatcherite ideology doesn't appeal one bit!

Anyone who wants to argue about the EU being democratic should take a few hours and read up about TTIP, it sums the organisation up. They will do anything and trample on anything to push through an agenda to line their own pockets. I'm out.

[Thracian]

Out. The people of this country have never sanctioned what the EU has become.

We should be independent supporters of Europe - and traders/friends with whoever else in the world we choose and on whatever terms we negotiate. 

We should make our own laws and be responsible for our own attitudes.

So much about the EU is flawed, wasteful and corrupted, including the Human Rights Legislation.   

[purpleronnie]

A big IN for me.

 

we know the pro and con's.

 

[bovril]

Out. The people of this country have never sanctioned what the EU has become.

We should be independent supporters of Europe - and traders/friends with whoever else in the world we choose and on whatever terms we negotiate. 

We should make our own laws and be responsible for our own attitudes.

So much about the EU is flawed, wasteful and corrupted, including the Human Rights Legislation.   

 

Well technically they have, by continuously electing pro-EU political parties.

[SMX11]

The only reason I can think of why we are in the EU is because of the tyranny of the status quo.

If you were on the outside looking in you would be mad to join it.