The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Jon the Hat]

Out. Bastards.

[Strokes]

Out. Bastards.

Seriously John, I had you down as a supporter of the Union. Have you changed your mind or have I confused you with someone else?

[davieG]

EU referendum: Lord Rose says it is 'patriotic' to remain in the EU

• .

Media captionLord Stuart Rose: "I believe our economy would be weaker outside Europe"

Staying in the EU can be the "patriotic course for Britain", former M&S boss Lord Rose said as he launched the campaign for the UK to remain a member.

Lord Rose, Britain Stronger in Europe chairman, said leaving was "not worth the risk" and said Britain was "surely bigger" than "walking away".

The EU referendum is due to be held before the end of 2017.

A rival, Eurosceptic, campaign launched on Friday with the message "vote leave, take control".

• Follow video and text coverage and reaction with Politics Live

One of its supporters, Conservative MP Steve Baker, told BBC Radio 5Live leaving the EU was "the safer choice" as it would allow the UK to "take back power".

The Britain Stronger in Europe board includes former chief of the general staff Sir Peter Wall, West Ham United vice-chairwoman Baroness Brady and television presenter June Sarpong.

EU referendum: What you need to know

In or out? The arguments for and against

A guide to the EU referendum

What do big businesses say on the issue?

EU referendum: What will happen when?

What Britain wants from Europe

Speaking at the event in London, Lord Rose dismissed the idea that there was a "patriotic" case for leaving the EU.

"To claim that the patriotic course for Britain is to retreat, withdraw and become inward-looking is to misunderstand who we are as a nation," he said.

"I will not allow anyone to tell me I'm any less British because I believe in the strongest possible Britain for business, for our security and our society."

'Duty and obligation'

BBC political correspondent Chris Mason said this theme was a tacit acknowledgement that the rival campaign had "seized the patriotic label".

Britain Stronger in Europe are keen to avoid parallels with the Scottish independence referendum, when the No campaign was branded "project fear" by opponents.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Sir Mike Rake, BT chairman, said the "In" campaign was "not trying to scare people" but said businesses had a "duty, an obligation and a right" to set out the effect on investment of a UK exit.

Former Prime Ministers Sir John Major, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair are supporting the campaign, alongside Labour MP Chuka Umunna, Green Party MP Caroline Lucas and Conservative MP Damian Green.

Who are the groups campaigning to leave the EU?

Image copyrightGetty Images

Vote Leave comprises a cross-party group of MPs and peers from the Conservatives and Labour, and UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.

It is being run by Taxpayers' Alliance campaign group founder Matthew Elliot, who organised the successful 'No2AV' campaign in the referendum on Westminster's voting system, and Dominic Cummings, a former special adviser to Conservative cabinet minister Michael Gove.

It has the backing of three existing Eurosceptic groups: Conservatives for Britain; Labour Leave and Business for Britain, and is being funded by party donors.

Leave.EU was formerly called The Know and rebranded when an amended referendum question was proposed. Founded by UKIP donor Arron Banks, it has been described by UKIP leader Nigel Farage as an "umbrella group" of anti-EU campaigners.

It describes itself as "Britain's fastest-growing grassroots organisation" and claims to have gained 175,000 members since The Know was launched in August.

Lord Rose, who was announced on Friday as the chairman of the campaign to stay in the EU, cited CBI estimates that the benefits of trade, investment, jobs and lower prices meant membership to the EU was worth £3,000 per year on average to every UK household.

He said: "When you consider that our annual contribution is equivalent to £340 per household, our contribution to the EU is an investment on which British families get a 10-to-one return."

The Conservative peer says the EU has to change but that to leave it would be too risky. He added, in an interview with BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, that he wanted to put the positive case for EU membership because those in favour of leaving the EU had launched their campaigns.

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Media captionIn full: Lord Rose interview with Laura Kuenssberg

In pre-released extracts Lord Rose had been due to call supporters of leaving the EU "quitters", but he did not use that word when he delivered his speech.

"They have no idea whether we would be able to access Europe's free trade area, or what the price of admission would be," he said.

"They cannot guarantee that jobs would be safe and prices wouldn't rise.

"They cannot explain how we could stop free movement and simultaneously keep our access to the world's largest duty free market."

The Electoral Commission has yet to designate the official campaigns on either side of the EU debate.

The chosen groups will benefit from increased spending limits of £7m during the campaign period, campaign broadcasts, and a free mailout to households.

They all get access to public meeting rooms and to the electoral register, and are entitled to public grants of up to £600,000.

The Electoral Commission has recommended voters in the election are asked whether the UK should "remain in" or "leave" the EU, rather than being asked to answer a "yes or no" question.

The government has tabled an amendment to the bill.

[davieG]

CBI says leaving EU would have serious consequences for Britain

• 7 hours ago

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• From the sectionBusiness

Image copyrightGetty Images

Leaving the European Union would have "serious downsides" for Britain, business lobby group the CBI says.

In its latest report on the subject, the CBI accepts there are problems with EU membership but that these are greatly outweighed by the benefits.

It says most of its members want to stay within the 28-country bloc.

Those on the other side of the hotly contested issue say the UK would be better served through a more distant relationship with the EU.

The CBI's report says the plan for a referendum on membership by 2017 means it is that essential business becomes involved in the debate.

"Just as 'more Europe' isn't the answer to every question, neither is 'no Europe'," the report says. "Being a member of the European Union helps British businesses to grow and create more jobs across the UK."

It says membership gives UK businesses access to more than 500 million customers within the single market, and the EU's size allows its trade negotiators go 'toe-to-toe' with global giants like the US and China to open up their markets.

Helpful

The CBI also says membership is good for households. It says that if membership is worth about 4-5% of national income, this would mean £3,000 for each household on average.

However, the lobby group points to areas where renegotiation would be helpful, in particular on issues such as regulation of smaller firms.

Will Straw, the executive director of the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, commented: "The CBI report blows a huge hole in the out campaign's argument. Being part of Europe boosts the UK economy by increasing our trade and investment in turn supporting millions of jobs here at home.

"We already have the best of both worlds, trading within the EU and other countries. Why would we put that at risk?"

Who are the groups campaigning to leave the EU?

Image copyrightGetty Images

Vote Leave comprises a cross-party group of MPs and peers from the Conservatives and Labour, and UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.

It is being run by Taxpayers' Alliance campaign group founder Matthew Elliot, who organised the successful 'No2AV' campaign in the referendum on Westminster's voting system, and Dominic Cummings, a former special adviser to Conservative cabinet minister Michael Gove.

It has the backing of three existing Eurosceptic groups: Conservatives for Britain; Labour Leave and Business for Britain, and is being funded by party donors.

Leave.EU was formerly called The Know and rebranded when an amended referendum question was proposed. Founded by UKIP donor Arron Banks, it has been described by UKIP leader Nigel Farage as an "umbrella group" of anti-EU campaigners.

It describes itself as "Britain's fastest-growing grassroots organisation" and claims to have gained 175,000 members since The Know was launched in August.

[SMX11]

Does anyone take the CBI seriously? They advocated joining the ERM and the Euro. Methinks they are wrong about this as well!

[Christoph]

I think I'm leaning towards out. I was very much in at the beginning but the whole ttip doesn't sit well with me. But then it really wouldn't surprise me to see our own politicians sign it even if we weren't in the eu.

[The Railway Man]

Out as well, the EU has clearly ran it's course and gone far beyond what it was supposed to be,

 

The scary thing is the people inside it seem to want to still extend it.

[BlueSi13]

It's an Out from me too.  

 

Regardless of the pros and cons, the EU's drive for 'ever closer union' will eventually result in the erosion of our national sovereignty in place of the European superstate dominated from Berlin.

 

I'm sorry but there is not a chance in hell I'm voting for that.

[bovril]

Wish there was a 'meh' option.

[bovril]

Interestingly, support for the EU is plummeting in 'Eastern Europe' ( as much as I loath the archaism).

[fuchsntf]

Anyone who wants to argue about the EU being democratic should take a few hours and read up about TTIP, it sums the organisation up. They will do anything and trample on anything to push through an agenda to line their own pockets. I'm out.

A bit like the UK government in the last 40 odd years.

They get voted in then forget everything they promised, and quite apt at telling people its not their fault.

Telling us what the other parties have done wrong, but cant explain in any structured sentence, what they are priotorising

to do to change and improve the situation.

Whether you are young or older, consider the generations of politicians you have followed, now try and think of one that

has helped to improved your or the countrys life, in....

Health, crime, employment, housing, financial stability, education across your known various friends and acquaintances or peers.Where can you look across the country and say you have seen great improvement and development within the

logistics and infrastructure.

Then write down how many times, you have heard every 2 years of life, 'tighten our belts' 'Austerity measures'.

Work out how many big businesses has help change the positives in our lives, then ballance it out with top Entrepreneurs,

who have had nothing but stupid govt burocratic policies and non support difficulties put in their way, to get started, carry on,

change direction.That would improve at least employment.

Govts who agreed with closing down businesses, losing 10s of thousands of jobs, not realising it would cost less to

help and support the continual production, than have years of continual unemployment, paying out ridiculous benifits,

creating dead and derelict areas and towns.

Then creating a monster, from a caring, understanding flexable, accepting gracious society, by not being able to organise or

manage a much needed immigration policy, where peoples are welcoming and welcome, because the simple idea of

infrastructure is not at least 80% in place. A strong belief and motivated society within itself can overcome long periods

of difficulty, but not when politicians destroy from within.

Italy and Greece told the EG 25years ago, that the refugee issue is exploding and out of control, and the poorer new members

entry points will not be able to handle it alone.It was simply ignored and put to the side for other generations to sort out.

On that alone We need to rip up the Eg formular, because its make up is worse

than the corruption and dissary that even FIFA could manage or create.

[Strokes]

A bit like the UK government in the last 40 odd years.

They get voted in then forget everything they promised, and quite apt at telling people its not their fault.

Telling us what the other parties have done wrong, but cant explain in any structured sentence, what they are priotorising

to do to change and improve the situation.

Whether you are young or older, consider the generations of politicians you have followed, now try and think of one that

has helped to improved your or the countrys life, in....

Health, crime, employment, housing, financial stability, education across your known various friends and acquaintances or peers.Where can you look across the country and say you have seen great improvement and development within the

logistics and infrastructure.

Then write down how many times, you have heard every 2 years of life, 'tighten our belts' 'Austerity measures'.

Work out how many big businesses has help change the positives in our lives, then ballance it out with top Entrepreneurs,

who have had nothing but stupid govt burocratic policies and non support difficulties put in their way, to get started, carry on,

change direction.That would improve at least employment.

Govts who agreed with closing down businesses, losing 10s of thousands of jobs, not realising it would cost less to

help and support the continual production, than have years of continual unemployment, paying out ridiculous benifits,

creating dead and derelict areas and towns.

Then creating a monster, from a caring, understanding flexable, accepting gracious society, by not being able to organise or

manage a much needed immigration policy, where peoples are welcoming and welcome, because the simple idea of

infrastructure is not at least 80% in place. A strong belief and motivated society within itself can overcome long periods

of difficulty, but not when politicians destroy from within.

Italy and Greece told the EG 25years ago, that the refugee issue is exploding and out of control, and the poorer new members

entry points will not be able to handle it alone.It was simply ignored and put to the side for other generations to sort out.

On that alone We need to rip up the Eg formular, because its make up is worse

than the corruption and dissary that even FIFA could manage or create.

Well I clearly hold the UK and our democratic process in much higher regard than you do. Your arguement seems to be, yes they are shit but so is everyone else. You don't appear to be offering much as to why we are better in than out.

Let me put it like this, the voting turnout for EU elections is a pathetic 33%. A larger portion of those that voted, voted for UKIP. There doesn't seem to be much appetite for a European Union, and I'm yet to hear anything positive that cant be countered or isn't speculative. Yet there are many negatives.

I will be inconsolable if we vote to stay in, we will never get another say on this, the only exit from that point will be total colapse.

[fuchsntf]

Well I clearly hold the UK and our democratic process in much higher regard than you do. Your arguement seems to be, yes they are shit but so is everyone else. You don't appear to be offering much as to why we are better in than out.

Let me put it like this, the voting turnout for EU elections is a pathetic 33%. A larger portion of those that voted, voted for UKIP. There doesn't seem to be much appetite for a European Union, and I'm yet to hear anything positive that cant be countered or isn't speculative. Yet there are many negatives.

I will be inconsolable if we vote to stay in, we will never get another say on this, the only exit from that point will be total colapse.

Actually with the exception of your 1st paragraph, I cant argue with you.

I believed and still believe in the idea of a European Union, but at present it does seem to be dispised by the citizens the guy n gals on the streets of its member states.

I have lived and worked in quite a few of the EU countries, and spoke to many of people across the society board, and heard

all opinions for and against.To tell you the truth both sides have strong arguments, sometimes even ehen the points being made are the same theme.

Many agree trash journalism or downright media lies on childish themes, dont help, but that itself does not excuse the receiver

or readers targeted, from using their common sense.

I have found it amusing in my travels, where no matter which country your in 'The johnny foreigner syndrome'.

often floats to the top.So if I could throw in a suggestion to the EU politicians, keep away from base sovererignty issues

Not one countrys peoples are up for outsiders trying to intervien in their ideas of their way of presenting and giving in their

everyday lives.Unique ways of eating and drinking , business presentation, employment attributes, health, criminal, education

ideas can be suggested but not expected to be enforced What would make the Eu strong are the Unique ways each country

differ in their societies.We will in western europe automatically take up ideas even rules from other countries, weve been doing it for a thousands of years, dont force it.

It was wrong taking in the poorer members, before they proved a certain level of financial stability, and non

corrupt business and taxing methods.

Human rights across the board could be governed from a central European base, not even the Uk get it right.

I dont like the present EU set up, I believe if all other countries citizens had the same vote possibility.

It would be a close run thing, in the richer countries.

Its the mis-management of power and rotten organisation that has built up the total mistrust in the EU idea.

But dont forget, British authorities have mis-lead their own electorate and have delibrately been rather flighty and far too

open on open borders, and immigrant benifits.Paying out far too much, or allowing well over the EU norm the right of stay,

and request for employment regulations.

A few years ago I would of given you a solid argument, of the whys and wherfores for the UK staying in the Union, of late

many outside forces changes have not changed necessarily my mind, but put the need for hard argument on ice.

If British politicians could use the Uniqueness of an Island situation, and were clever enough to ride in the slip stream of the EUwe could afford not to be in the EU.

I am not a UKIP fan, but Farrage was right when he said, businesses wont flee the UK because we go out of the EU.

Plus our British businessmen can ruin or succeed in failure just as well whether in or out of the EU.

He did also say just pulling out is not the end sollution the politicians and electorate still need to pull more together.

[Guest MattP]

So here it is finally, the four point plan of renegotiation, which apart from a small part on restricting benefits is pretty much nothing.

 

David Cameron has outlined his goals for reforming the UK's membership of the EU, saying they will be difficult, but not impossible, to achieve.

He said Britain faced the biggest decision of "our lifetimes" in an in/out referendum promised before the end of 2017.

But he was confident of getting the reforms he wanted, describing talks with EU partners "mission possible".

EU leave campaigners have described the talks as a "gimmick".

 

Mr Cameron has formally set out his demands in a letter to the president of the European Council, which has now been published.

He said four objectives lie at the heart of the UK's renegotiations:

• Protection of the single market for Britain and other non-euro countries
• Boosting competitiveness by setting a target for the reduction of the "burden" of red tape
• Exempting Britain from "ever-closer union" and bolstering national parliaments
• Restricting EU migrants' access to in-work benefits such as tax credits

Mr Cameron hit back at claims by former Tory chancellor Lord Lawson that the four goals were "disappointingly unambitious", saying they reflected what the British people wanted and would be "good for Britain and good for the European Union".

"It is mission possible and it is going to take a lot of hard work to get there," said the prime minister.

'Final decision'

The toughest task he is likely to face is persuading other EU leaders to accept restrictions on in-work benefits for new arrivals to the UK, which Mr Cameron said was vital to cut "very high" and "unsustainable" levels of immigration.

He said: "I understand how difficult some of these welfare issues are for some member states, and I'm open to different ways of dealing with this issue.

"But we do need to secure arrangements that deliver on objectives set out in the Conservative manifesto to control migration from the European Union."

Mr Cameron claimed 40% of recent European Economic Area migrants received an average of around £6,000 a year of in-work benefits.

He has said he wants the UK to stay in a reformed EU, but he has not ruled out recommending leaving if he cannot secure the change he wants with the leaders of the other 27 EU countries.

He ruled out a second referendum if Britain voted to leave, saying: "You the British people will decide. At that moment you will hold this country's destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country - perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be a final decision."

 

Also, can we believe anything that comes out the mouths of the pro European Union lobby anymore? They tell us only a tiny fraction of EU immigration is reliant on any benefits and when we get the official figures from the the pro-EU government it's over 40%.

[SMX11]

Wow is that really the sum amount of the potential reform?

[Guest MattP]

Wow is that really the sum amount of the potential reform?

 

Yep, that's it All the talk of reformation of the border control laws, human rights Act, a nations individually soverignty etc and it's this. Least we can start the "out" campaign properly now without all the nonsense from the Tory pro side about these wonderful measures that were upcoming.

 

What's more peculiar is that he also says he leaves everything open to his decision, I presume that means if he gets nothing he'll be on the side of Brexit as well?

[MooseBreath]

Those benefit figures are incredible. Nearly half of EU migrants straight on £6k giveaway per year. He's right to attack that hard.

Surprised there's nothing in there about border control since that seems to be the number one issue. I'm not sure if the public stance on immigration is starting to soften a bit though? Anti-immigration sentiment doesn't seem as potent as it was three or four years ago. Perhaps Cameron is banking on that trend continuing.

[Jon the Hat]

Seriously John, I had you down as a supporter of the Union. Have you changed your mind or have I confused you with someone else?

 

I used to be pro EU, but it is increasingly clear that it is not going to be a driver of economic growth for decades, and we are well placed to leverage the expansion of China and India with unilateral trade deals.  I think we would get an economic boost from leaving, retain the trading rights with the EU very easily, and be able to access all the talent and labour we need on our terms.  The EU is a bloated expensive nightmare run by people who's goal is a federal European super state.  Why waste any more time on it?

[Guest MattP]

I used to be pro EU, but it is increasingly clear that it is not going to be a driver of economic growth for decades, and we are well placed to leverage the expansion of China and India with unilateral trade deals.  I think we would get an economic boost from leaving, retain the trading rights with the EU very easily, and be able to access all the talent and labour we need on our terms.  The EU is a bloated expensive nightmare run by people who's goal is a federal European super state.  Why waste any more time on it?

 

Nice to have you on board, delighted!

[Finnaldo]

Matt, weren't most the statistics suggesting EU Migrants put more into the system than they took out? If a majority of the 40% were on £6,000 - £9,000 then could those who were on a healthy income and not claiming benefits could likely make that gap up quite quickly, especially when you consider foreign engineers and contractors from larger European nations (especially in the car/energy market for example).

Still leaning on out, but that's how I read the statistics.

[Guest MattP]

Matt, weren't most the statistics suggesting EU Migrants put more into the system than they took out? If a majority of the 40% were on £6,000 - £9,000 then could those who were on a healthy income and not claiming benefits could likely make that gap up quite quickly, especially when you consider foreign engineers and contractors from larger European nations (especially in the car/energy market for example).

Still leaning on out, but that's how I read the statistics.

 

There are certainly statistics out there to suggest EU migration makes a small contribution to the UK as opposed to non ECC immigration (although that is based on the understanding they don't retire here), but I have no idea if those figures took into account nearly half of them actually get 6k in taxpayers money to top up their wages. I'm sure we'll start seeing all sorts of facts and figures over the next few months though.

 

I'm just glad it smashed this whole myth of how only a small minority of EU workers claim benefits though, it's been doing the rounds virtually unchallenged for far too long.

[Jon the Hat]

Matt, weren't most the statistics suggesting EU Migrants put more into the system than they took out? If a majority of the 40% were on £6,000 - £9,000 then could those who were on a healthy income and not claiming benefits could likely make that gap up quite quickly, especially when you consider foreign engineers and contractors from larger European nations (especially in the car/energy market for example).

Still leaning on out, but that's how I read the statistics.

 

You could dramatically improve the economic contribution immigration brings by controlling it yourself, and only bringing in those who have a job lined up and add something to the country.  We should also take into account non economic benefits of course, and there are many in my view to having a multicultural element to our society and workplaces.

[Harry - LCFC]

I'm not particularly inspired by Cameron's pledges. While the leaders of the Labour Party and the Conservatives are both pro-EU I don't trust either of them to protect us from tighter integration. I expect the EU commissioners will continue to get the closer union that they seek so I expect I'll be voting 'out'.

 

 

Well technically they have, by continuously electing pro-EU political parties.

 

You know full well people vote for Labour and the Conservatives because they're aware that those are the only two choices when it comes to forming a government.

 

Stop twisting people's choices into meaning what you want them to mean.

[bovril]

You know full well people vote for Labour and the Conservatives because they're aware that those are the only two choices when it comes to forming a government.

 

Stop twisting people's choices into meaning what you want them to mean.

 

Stop twisting my post to mean what you want it to mean!

[MPH]

Wondering if the pledges are purposefully weak to strengthen the NO campaign!?