The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Carl the Llama]

So if people see things being implemented into the referendum that they believe make it an unfair one they should shut up and be quiet about it until it's been lost?

 

Do you not see the flaw in that logic?

That I understand the sentiment behind your logic is exactly why I find it interesting that you're now happy to engage in talk about fixing unfair systems.

[Guest MattP]

- At the vast majority of elections in my adult lifetime (1979, 1983, 1987, 1992, 2010, 2015), the Tories have had much more money to spend, and they have had the support of the vast majority of the print media; that matters less now, but mattered a great deal in the days before the Internet and expansion of TV etc.

 

- In talking about the stacking of odds, it was money/media that I was referring to - not boundary reviews. It seems that boundaries are now slanted against the Tories....they were widely reckoned to be slanted against Labour back in the 80s. Maybe longstanding governments (Thatcher, Blair) manage to influence the Boundary Commission, though its supposed to be party-neutral. But the main reason for the current anti-Tory bias is reckoned to be demographic change, not foul play by Blair. It is simply that a lot of (disproportionately Tory-voting) people have moved from cities to smaller towns/rural areas, so that there are now more voters per Tory seat than per Labour seat. A boundary review was due to compensate for this demographic shift, but the Tories wouldn't compromise with their Lib Dem coalition partners over Lords reform, so the Lib Dems blocked it in revenge.

 

- Voting % of winning party: Con 1979: 43.9%; Con 1983: 42.4%; Con 1987: 42.2%; Con 1992: 41.9%; Lab 1997: 43.2%; Lab 2001: 40.7%; Lab 2005: 35.2%; Con (coalition) 2010: 36.1%; Con 2015: 36.9%. So, there was only 1 election (2005) when Labour won a majority with 35%-odd (the Tories doing similarly this time). Until 2005, the winning party, Con or Lab, generally got 40%. The change is the decline of the "big 2" and rise of smaller parties, not some conspiracy by the left.

 

- Here's a list of Question Time panelists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Question_Time_episodes. The only way that you could claim that there are normally "3 left-wingers" is if you categorise all Lib Dems and MOR unaligned guests as lefties. I could mirror that and categorise them all as "right-wingers", but that would be utter bollocks - as your claim is. Seriously, have a look at that list, Matt! In general, the mix is 1 left, 1 right & 3 centrist/unaligned; or 2 left, 2 right & 1 centrist/unaligned.

 

- I simply do not accept your suggestion that the BBC is habitually pro-left....are you talking about Nick Robinson / Andrew Neil (known Tories - and very good journalists)? Jeremy Paxman, who proclaimed himself a "one nation Tory"? Yes, I know some others (e.g. Andrew Marr) have leftist sympathies, but then I'm not claiming that the BBC is habitually pro-right. It tries to play it neutral, generally does a pretty good job, but probably slants slightly towards the governing party out of fear of those in power. The only way that the BBC could be seen as left-wing is if you take the Tory Right as the middle-ground, BNP as the right, and everyone from Tory wets to SWP as the left!

 

- You're being pedantic about the potential for a Con/UKIP/DUP coalition. If the polls were suggesting up to 303 seats for those parties, it wouldn't have taken much for it to happen....as proven by the fact that the Tories alone ended up with 332 seats or whatever. Election coverage should be about issues, not polls or bookies (who were quoting long odds on a Tory majority, for that matter)....and particularly not about polls used as a pretext for scare stories by one particular party. God knows what you'd have said if Labour had campaigned on the likelihood of a Tory/UKIP alliance and the BBC had allowed that to dominate its coverage.

 

I'm leaving it there for a few days. I have enough serious shit in my life without getting dragged into pointless, bitter, paranoid discussions like this (my fault, too, I know). I hate the values of bitterness, division, paranoia, scorn and contempt that are starting to dominate a lot of politics in this country - and some of the debate on here. I really wish there was a government that believed in "one nation politics". There's a real spirit of nastiness at large in this country in recent years.....the Tories, still the nasty party!

 

Agree on the first three paragraphs.

 

For it to be an even spread on QT you pretty much have to view the Liberal Democrat selection in the centre, no one would seriously have described them as anything like that before 2010, I think most people would find it hard to put Simon Hughes, Vince Cable, Tim Farron, Norman Lamb, Charles Kennedy etc anywhere near the centre of British politics - Nick Clegg might be, but he isn't the Liberal Democrats himself.

 

Don't agree regarding CON-UKIP-DUP still, I don't think still being 20 short even on the highest poll ratings possible for each party would deserve such media scrutiny and I think that's exactly why no channel bothered given it such, we'll agree to disagree though on that.

 

I'm a bit baffled by the last paragraph, I actually thought this was a decent little debate, certainly don't think it has gone anywhere near across a line for it to be referred to as divisive, bitter or scornful, even more so as right after you have written that you have engaged in it yourself with that tried old 'nasty party Tories' line, I think it's time to put that away, no one believes it apart from the converted anyway and it just sounds like sour grapes.

 

I also thought there was too much emphasis on Labour/SNP relationship.  Partly by TV partly by other media. It was Labour's own fault in a way for not being vocal enough to divert attention away from it. Nearly every debate, every discussion the subject of 'a disaster' if 'those two got together' came up. 

At the end of the day Cameron's speech writers were better and more convincing  to around 30% of the general public than Milliband  and that was enough to enable him to sieze  power for another five years.

 

He could have killed it off himself had he wanted too, just say at the start like the Tories, Lib Dems and UKIP did that they would do no deal whatsoever with the SNP, he decided not to and he paid the price for that. Finally a week before he eventually did it and by then it was too late, although as proved by the reaction in the immediate aftermath of the exit poll, he was lying anyway.

 

Thankfully the British public knew he was and didn't fall for it.

 

That I understand the sentiment behind your logic is exactly why I find it interesting that you're now happy to engage in talk about fixing unfair systems.

 

As I've stated three times now, I'm not looking to fix any 'system' - I don't know where this has come from, I just want to make sure the referendum is free and fair, fortunately it does appear something has been done regarding the BBC in the amendment.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/11664797/BBC-could-be-forced-by-law-to-cover-EU-referendum-impartially.html

[SMX11]

As the political junkie that I am, I listened to most of the EU referendum debate in the HoC on the Iplayer.

From what I gather there are some issues with regards to funding and Purdah is currently been scrapped which is a terrible idea.

There needs to be a very open and free referendum so that the government cannot use its tentacles to influence decisions close the time of voting.

[Guest MattP]

Not really to do with the EU but I thought this was an interesting read ftrom the Spectator as it ties into the "Nasty Tory Party" line that Alf and many others still like to come out with, the tide has turned.

 

 

I realised that the Tories were going to thump it while getting stuck into the champers at a wedding the weekend before polling day. Old friends from university barely let the bride and groom pick the confetti from their hair before collaring me: ‘Miliband can’t seriously win? I mean, come on! What are you doing to stop him, darling?’

 

It was clear that something had changed. This was the same crowd that once looked at me as if I’d publicly admitted a penchant for sodomising livestock when I openly discussed my political allegiances during our student days. While I always presumed they were ‘small c’ conservatives — shy Tories — with a smattering of champagne socialists and a solitary Lib Dem, these things were never talked about. There has been the odd Facebook status pushing the latest ‘clicktivist’ fad or harrumphing about the right to shred foxes from the more rural types, but all in all most of the people I spent my formative years with couldn’t give a crap about politics, let alone the fortunes of the Conservative party. Or so I thought until the wedding.

Returning to the office on that Monday — and reporting this clear groundswell of support for Dave — I was told I was talking crazy and to look at the polls. I wish I had had the balls, and access to capital, of that Scottish pensioner who walked away with a quarter of a million after sticking £30,000 on a Tory majority that week. Fools regret.

 

It has not always been this easy, though. At a late-night luvvie bash a few years ago I got into a drunken row with Tracey Emin when trying to subtly praise her for coming out for Cameron in 2010. So used to being attacked for her lukewarm Conservatism, Emin thought I must be taking the piss. Our national treasure was not alone in being sensitive. By the time I had made my position clear and she had stopped shouting, there seemed little point in continuing the conversation.

Our national treasure was not alone in being sensitive, but it feels different now. Labour fought on solid lefty ground and were thumped. The Liberals were totally annihilated. If you broadly supported what the coalition had achieved, then what on earth was the point of voting Liberal Democrat?

 

It feels as if the right are finally getting the credit that they deserve for being, well, right. From the cash-rich fluttering pensioners to the rahs of Sussex, suddenly wearing one’s Tory loyalty on one’s sleeve is socially acceptable. Anecdotal data backs this up: vaguely right-wing posts on social media that once spelled social ostracism are now greeted with a flurry of likes, retweets and shares.

 

More serious pieces of election analysis will be written, but one thing that cannot be ignored is the gurning gift that was Ed Miliband, who made it impossible to support Labour and retain any semblance of normality. His legacy, and we are being kind in affording him one, is that he ruined the left’s entitlement to cool.

 

Yet something else has happened, too. Having attended Tory party conferences for nearly a decade, I’ve noticed a shift in recent years. Yes, a vast swathe of the colonels and the blue-rinse brigade have croaked it, but that slightly unpleasant frothier fringe of the party has disappeared too, presumably jumping ship to Ukip. The active party base is younger, darker, more metropolitan and certainly more tolerant.

 

‘It’s always been a real problem for me because of the stigma it’s carried,’ bleats delusional Ivan Massow. ‘It was harder coming out as Conservative than as gay.’ The entrepreneur found it so hard that he defected to Labour, but is now back in the Tories and running for mayor.

 

The prophets of doom said gay marriage would send Cameron to political oblivion, having lost older core activists. If anything, the opposite came true. In one fell swoop Downing Street enabled the 6 per cent of voters who are gay a proper choice at the election. While many Tory activists did jump to Ukip, the policy opened up the party to previously unreachable voters.

 

The million-strong increase in ethnic-minority Tory voters cannot be ignored, either. It’s been a long road to shed that nasty party image, and it’s increasingly clear that the public are noticing.

When a paper like the Independent feels able to endorse Cameron, things really have changed. So no more of this shy Tory nonsense. Out and proud, please.

 

We need a politics thread really don't we?

[Frank to be]

Doesn't make any sense given that the over-65s won it for the tories. They lost votes among under-65s.

[Guest MattP]

Doesn't make any sense given that the over-65s won it for the tories. They lost votes among under-65s.

 

They lost votes in the middle aged (which is expected given those voters were young when Labour won by a landslide), they actually increased quite a bit in the 18-30's group (according to polling of course, we dont know do we for sure do we?) but were still behind Labour - That's nothing to worry about though, I would have voted Labour or Lib Dem when I was 18, people do silly things when they are young and I think it's common knowledge you become more Conservative the older you get.

 

The million ethnic minority voters is the big one though, Cameron made a huge play for the Sikh and Hindu votes and now they are as likely to vote Tory as Labour and that's only going one way in future as well. That's a massive, massive indentation in the core Labour vote, if we can start to appeal to the black community as well which we can with some exceptional up and coming talent like Adam Afriyie and Kwasi Kharteng and show them we want them to achieve everything they can the sky is the limit.

 

I'd like to see Muslims voting Tory but I can't see it, I'd be fuming as well if Tory MP's started turning up at sex segregated rallies as well to try and grab the vote like Labour MP's do.

[MiniFox]

Not really to do with the EU but I thought this was an interesting read ftrom the Spectator as it ties into the "Nasty Tory Party" line that Alf and many others still like to come out with, the tide has turned.

 

 

I realised that the Tories were going to thump it while getting stuck into the champers at a wedding the weekend before polling day. Old friends from university barely let the bride and groom pick the confetti from their hair before collaring me: ‘Miliband can’t seriously win? I mean, come on! What are you doing to stop him, darling?’

 

It was clear that something had changed. This was the same crowd that once looked at me as if I’d publicly admitted a penchant for sodomising livestock when I openly discussed my political allegiances during our student days. While I always presumed they were ‘small c’ conservatives — shy Tories — with a smattering of champagne socialists and a solitary Lib Dem, these things were never talked about. There has been the odd Facebook status pushing the latest ‘clicktivist’ fad or harrumphing about the right to shred foxes from the more rural types, but all in all most of the people I spent my formative years with couldn’t give a crap about politics, let alone the fortunes of the Conservative party. Or so I thought until the wedding.

Returning to the office on that Monday — and reporting this clear groundswell of support for Dave — I was told I was talking crazy and to look at the polls. I wish I had had the balls, and access to capital, of that Scottish pensioner who walked away with a quarter of a million after sticking £30,000 on a Tory majority that week. Fools regret.

 

It has not always been this easy, though. At a late-night luvvie bash a few years ago I got into a drunken row with Tracey Emin when trying to subtly praise her for coming out for Cameron in 2010. So used to being attacked for her lukewarm Conservatism, Emin thought I must be taking the piss. Our national treasure was not alone in being sensitive. By the time I had made my position clear and she had stopped shouting, there seemed little point in continuing the conversation.

Our national treasure was not alone in being sensitive, but it feels different now. Labour fought on solid lefty ground and were thumped. The Liberals were totally annihilated. If you broadly supported what the coalition had achieved, then what on earth was the point of voting Liberal Democrat?

 

It feels as if the right are finally getting the credit that they deserve for being, well, right. From the cash-rich fluttering pensioners to the rahs of Sussex, suddenly wearing one’s Tory loyalty on one’s sleeve is socially acceptable. Anecdotal data backs this up: vaguely right-wing posts on social media that once spelled social ostracism are now greeted with a flurry of likes, retweets and shares.

 

More serious pieces of election analysis will be written, but one thing that cannot be ignored is the gurning gift that was Ed Miliband, who made it impossible to support Labour and retain any semblance of normality. His legacy, and we are being kind in affording him one, is that he ruined the left’s entitlement to cool.

 

Yet something else has happened, too. Having attended Tory party conferences for nearly a decade, I’ve noticed a shift in recent years. Yes, a vast swathe of the colonels and the blue-rinse brigade have croaked it, but that slightly unpleasant frothier fringe of the party has disappeared too, presumably jumping ship to Ukip. The active party base is younger, darker, more metropolitan and certainly more tolerant.

 

‘It’s always been a real problem for me because of the stigma it’s carried,’ bleats delusional Ivan Massow. ‘It was harder coming out as Conservative than as gay.’ The entrepreneur found it so hard that he defected to Labour, but is now back in the Tories and running for mayor.

 

The prophets of doom said gay marriage would send Cameron to political oblivion, having lost older core activists. If anything, the opposite came true. In one fell swoop Downing Street enabled the 6 per cent of voters who are gay a proper choice at the election. While many Tory activists did jump to Ukip, the policy opened up the party to previously unreachable voters.

 

The million-strong increase in ethnic-minority Tory voters cannot be ignored, either. It’s been a long road to shed that nasty party image, and it’s increasingly clear that the public are noticing.

When a paper like the Independent feels able to endorse Cameron, things really have changed. So no more of this shy Tory nonsense. Out and proud, please.

 

We need a politics thread really don't we?

Some good points and for the most part I agree with the post, I do believe as a whole the Tories have managed to shift that reputation as the nasty party, not with everyone, but most, however, on one of your last points about 'out and proud' I still think many of those who voted Tory in this election aren't out and out Tory, instead they saw the Tories as the best possible alternative to the opposition.

 

what I mean is I can't see a dramatic rise in people who will proudly shout about being Conservative, not because they are ashamed to, but because they aren't always conservatives, for example with you, you will find reason to defend conservatives with research and reason possibly, where as not everyone feels as attached to any party, simply voting for a party doesn't make you a member, a lot of the people who did vote Tory who didn't before, could quite easily vote elsewhere next time. 

 

I wouldn't say the Conservatives were only the best of a bad bunch, but I do feel if the opposition had been (a lot) stronger, the result would have been different, I would say as a party they have moved in the right direction for them, as said earlier, that image barely exists for most, which helps them massively, that way there is no guilt or shame with voting Tory.

 

 

We need a politics thread really don't we?

Post election blues thread?

[Guest MattP]

Some good points and for the most part I agree with the post, I do believe as a whole the Tories have managed to shift that reputation as the nasty party, not with everyone, but most, however, on one of your last points about 'out and proud' I still think many of those who voted Tory in this election aren't out and out Tory, instead they saw the Tories as the best possible alternative to the opposition.

 

what I mean is I can't see a dramatic rise in people who will proudly shout about being Conservative, not because they are ashamed to, but because they aren't always conservatives, for example with you, you will find reason to defend conservatives with research and reason possibly, where as not everyone feels as attached to any party, simply voting for a party doesn't make you a member, a lot of the people who did vote Tory who didn't before, could quite easily vote elsewhere next time. 

 

I wouldn't say the Conservatives were only the best of a bad bunch, but I do feel if the opposition had been (a lot) stronger, the result would have been different, I would say as a party they have moved in the right direction for them, as said earlier, that image barely exists for most, which helps them massively, that way there is no guilt or shame with voting Tory.

 

Good post, agree with most of it.

 

They have moved in the right direction, I actually think the rise of UKIP in hindsight has helped them as it's allowed them to campaign against a lot of the negative perceptions people had of them.

 

I get the feeling a lot of the left wing political establishment (not voters) want to attach being racist, sexist etc to a political opposition, UKIP took the brunt of that this time for the first time ever in a General Election, I remember hearing before 2010 a few people telling you not to vote Tory as they are still the racist, homophobic nasty party etc - that's something I think has has gone now and they won't be able to bring it back.

 

38% of the vote is nothing to crow about obviously, but I was pretty firm over the last 5 years I didn't think the Tories could ever achieve 35% again - achieving 38% whilst (although I stated many times I didn't believe this was the case) also losing 12-13% to UKIP who were apparantly vastly all ex-Conservative voters really is some achievement though - If UKIP do collapse that Tory vote shoots back over 40% and probably to 45%, with new boundaries and a standing start that's a hell of a way Labour have to come back from, even more so with them about to create a new generation of young homeowners.

[bovril]

They have moved in the right direction, I actually think the rise of UKIP in hindsight has helped them as it's allowed them to campaign against a lot of the negative perceptions people had of them.

 

Isn't that the whole point of UKIP, the 'vanilla cola' of the Tories?

[Alf Bentley]

They lost votes in the middle aged (which is expected given those voters were young when Labour won by a landslide), they actually increased quite a bit in the 18-30's group (according to polling of course, we dont know do we for sure do we?) but were still behind Labour - That's nothing to worry about though, I would have voted Labour or Lib Dem when I was 18, people do silly things when they are young and I think it's common knowledge you become more Conservative the older you get.

 

The million ethnic minority voters is the big one though, Cameron made a huge play for the Sikh and Hindu votes and now they are as likely to vote Tory as Labour and that's only going one way in future as well. That's a massive, massive indentation in the core Labour vote, if we can start to appeal to the black community as well which we can with some exceptional up and coming talent like Adam Afriyie and Kwasi Kharteng and show them we want them to achieve everything they can the sky is the limit.

 

I'd like to see Muslims voting Tory but I can't see it, I'd be fuming as well if Tory MP's started turning up at sex segregated rallies as well to try and grab the vote like Labour MP's do.

 

Ipsos MORI data: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx?view=wide

 

For what it's worth after the discrediting of the pollsters, this data supports Frank To Be's point: 47%-23% Con/Lab split among 65+ group, with a 5.5% swing to the Tories on a 78% turnout (compared to 43% in 18-24 age group).

 

Every other age group saw a swing to Labour of between 1.5% & 7.5% - but actually largest among the 18-24 age group, who voted 43%-27% for Labour, a 7.5% swing to Labour compared to 2010.

 

Little change in voting patterns among black / minority ethnic - Con up 7% & Lab up 5%: a good outcome for the Tories, admittedly, but not as dramatic as you paint it....23% Con, 65% Lab overall (DK re. Hindu/Sikh; not broken down).

[MiniFox]

Good post, agree with most of it.

 

They have moved in the right direction, I actually think the rise of UKIP in hindsight has helped them as it's allowed them to campaign against a lot of the negative perceptions people had of them.

 

I get the feeling a lot of the left wing political establishment (not voters) want to attach being racist, sexist etc to a political opposition, UKIP took the brunt of that this time for the first time ever in a General Election, I remember hearing before 2010 a few people telling you not to vote Tory as they are still the racist, homophobic nasty party etc - that's something I think has has gone now and they won't be able to bring it back.

 

38% of the vote is nothing to crow about obviously, but I was pretty firm over the last 5 years I didn't think the Tories could ever achieve 35% again - achieving 38% whilst (although I stated many times I didn't believe this was the case) also losing 12-13% to UKIP who were apparantly vastly all ex-Conservative voters really is some achievement though - If UKIP do collapse that Tory vote shoots back over 40% and probably to 45%, with new boundaries and a standing start that's a hell of a way Labour have to come back from, even more so with them about to create a new generation of young homeowners.

Some fair points, the UKIP influence hasn't had the effect many had expected, for one evidently UKIP took votes off of other parties also, not just Tory votes, secondly, the rise of UKIP as you said sort of deflected stereotypical criticism of the Tories onto UKIP, the collapse of UKIP is possible with the EU referendum, if we vote in, what exactly is UKIP's purpose or USP? as this is what they have campaigned for, although, same if we vote out, what do UKIP have to fight for anymore? 

 

The next 5 years of course are big, if the opposition is no opposition at all and UKIP do collapse, then 40%+ is a possibility, but there are many factors affecting this and only time will tell what is going to happen. 

 

In my opinion if Labour can offer real opposition and make their case heard, then I'd imagine we'd see a much closer election next time, as for UKIP I have no idea what exactly they will offer in 5 years time.

[ADK]

Obviously the data isn't 100% accurate, polls are done pre election and then further weighted based on actual results. I'd be surprised if young people were voting Tory in greater number. With young people likely to have experienced the welfare system, have had to pay higher tuition fees, had their job prospects affected by immigration, affected by the lack of affordable housing. I was more Tory than Labour before, but I feel voting Conservative would be immoral now.

[Webbo]

Not really to do with the EU but I thought this was an interesting read ftrom the Spectator as it ties into the "Nasty Tory Party" line that Alf and many others still like to come out with, the tide has turned.

 

 

I realised that the Tories were going to thump it while getting stuck into the champers at a wedding the weekend before polling day. Old friends from university barely let the bride and groom pick the confetti from their hair before collaring me: ‘Miliband can’t seriously win? I mean, come on! What are you doing to stop him, darling?’

 

It was clear that something had changed. This was the same crowd that once looked at me as if I’d publicly admitted a penchant for sodomising livestock when I openly discussed my political allegiances during our student days. While I always presumed they were ‘small c’ conservatives — shy Tories — with a smattering of champagne socialists and a solitary Lib Dem, these things were never talked about. There has been the odd Facebook status pushing the latest ‘clicktivist’ fad or harrumphing about the right to shred foxes from the more rural types, but all in all most of the people I spent my formative years with couldn’t give a crap about politics, let alone the fortunes of the Conservative party. Or so I thought until the wedding.

Returning to the office on that Monday — and reporting this clear groundswell of support for Dave — I was told I was talking crazy and to look at the polls. I wish I had had the balls, and access to capital, of that Scottish pensioner who walked away with a quarter of a million after sticking £30,000 on a Tory majority that week. Fools regret.

 

It has not always been this easy, though. At a late-night luvvie bash a few years ago I got into a drunken row with Tracey Emin when trying to subtly praise her for coming out for Cameron in 2010. So used to being attacked for her lukewarm Conservatism, Emin thought I must be taking the piss. Our national treasure was not alone in being sensitive. By the time I had made my position clear and she had stopped shouting, there seemed little point in continuing the conversation.

Our national treasure was not alone in being sensitive, but it feels different now. Labour fought on solid lefty ground and were thumped. The Liberals were totally annihilated. If you broadly supported what the coalition had achieved, then what on earth was the point of voting Liberal Democrat?

 

It feels as if the right are finally getting the credit that they deserve for being, well, right. From the cash-rich fluttering pensioners to the rahs of Sussex, suddenly wearing one’s Tory loyalty on one’s sleeve is socially acceptable. Anecdotal data backs this up: vaguely right-wing posts on social media that once spelled social ostracism are now greeted with a flurry of likes, retweets and shares.

 

More serious pieces of election analysis will be written, but one thing that cannot be ignored is the gurning gift that was Ed Miliband, who made it impossible to support Labour and retain any semblance of normality. His legacy, and we are being kind in affording him one, is that he ruined the left’s entitlement to cool.

 

Yet something else has happened, too. Having attended Tory party conferences for nearly a decade, I’ve noticed a shift in recent years. Yes, a vast swathe of the colonels and the blue-rinse brigade have croaked it, but that slightly unpleasant frothier fringe of the party has disappeared too, presumably jumping ship to Ukip. The active party base is younger, darker, more metropolitan and certainly more tolerant.

 

‘It’s always been a real problem for me because of the stigma it’s carried,’ bleats delusional Ivan Massow. ‘It was harder coming out as Conservative than as gay.’ The entrepreneur found it so hard that he defected to Labour, but is now back in the Tories and running for mayor.

 

The prophets of doom said gay marriage would send Cameron to political oblivion, having lost older core activists. If anything, the opposite came true. In one fell swoop Downing Street enabled the 6 per cent of voters who are gay a proper choice at the election. While many Tory activists did jump to Ukip, the policy opened up the party to previously unreachable voters.

 

The million-strong increase in ethnic-minority Tory voters cannot be ignored, either. It’s been a long road to shed that nasty party image, and it’s increasingly clear that the public are noticing.

When a paper like the Independent feels able to endorse Cameron, things really have changed. So no more of this shy Tory nonsense. Out and proud, please.

 

We need a politics thread really don't we?

I must admit I started to get a good feeling during the week leading up to the election. I never heard anyone with any enthusiasm for Labour. The poll on here surprised me too, the tories had a clear lead whereas I was expecting to be close or even a Labour lead. 

[davieG]

Labour frontbenchers to launch pro-EU campaign

By Chris MasonPolitical correspondent, BBC News

• 2 hours ago

•  
• From the sectionUK Politics

A group of senior Labour frontbenchers is planning to set up an "unashamedly pro-European campaign group".

It follows disagreements within the shadow cabinet over how to approach the EU referendum.

A handful of senior figures are already discussing hiring office space and seeking funding to launch their campaign as soon as possible.

David Cameron has promised a referendum on whether the UK should stay in the European Union before the end of 2017.

One member of the shadow cabinet told the BBC that Acting Labour Leader Harriet Harman was "panicking" about Labour being seen as "being tied to the Tory leadership" during the referendum campaign.

A spokeswoman for Ms Harman said it was important the party was "given room" to express different views after its election defeat.

The referendum - a Conservative election manifesto promise - has been causing Labour grief for some months.

'Red Tories'

The party opposed the idea during the election campaign, arguing a referendum would be destabilising for the UK.

But it changed its mind after losing in May.

Now there are two further dilemmas for the party.

Does it wholeheartedly and immediately become the voice for staying in the EU - before we know what new deal the Prime Minister has negotiated with Brussels?

Harriet Harman wants to give the party room for debate

And does it run the risk of being seen as too close to the Conservative leadership, assuming, as expected, David Cameron eventually advocates staying in?

Some within the party are nervous of a repeat of what happened after the Scottish independence referendum, where Labour and the Conservatives were on the same side of the argument, allowing the Scottish National Party to describe Labour as "red Tories" during the general election campaign.

UKIP finished second behind Labour in 44 seats at the general election and some within Labour fear sounding stridently pro European when so many of their former voters have been lured towards Nigel Farage's party.

'Massive defeat'

But one shadow cabinet minister said: "We have got to get on with this. If we wait until October we will be playing catch-up.

"Labour has got to make an unashamedly pro-European case, with passion. We can't be trying to second guess the Tories.

"Let the Conservatives tear themselves apart and we can be on the side of the majority of people who want to stay in."

David Cameron has promised a referendum by the end of 2017

But a source close to the interim Labour leadership - which has the tricky task of holding the fort until a new leader is elected - said it was important the party as a whole, including those in the shadow cabinet, were given chance "to be honest and vocal, and yes, at times, that will be uncomfortable."

"We want to encourage reflection at the moment, that is part of the healing process," the source said, adding "this isn't so much about nerves about the Tories, more that there are plenty of people within the party who are well aware of how well UKIP has done."

Some senior figures worry that after spending years trying to persuade constituents they understand why many are worried about immigration, now is not the time, weeks after the election, to be seen jumping up and down with pro European zeal.

Giampi Alhadeff, the Chairman of the Labour Movement for Europe, acknowledged that some within the party were nervous about being seen as stridently pro-European right now.

"It is understandable. There is a lot happening at the moment with the leadership race and we have just suffered a massive defeat. But we should pin our flag to the mast and do it now, it is important for Britain that we say we are better off in the European Union," Mr Alhadeff told the BBC.

'Important decision'

He acknowledged he had "heard the argument" within the party about the supposed parallels with the Scottish independence referendum and the potential consequences for Labour afterwards, but disagrees with it.

"The problem for us in Scotland predates the referendum. And, more to the point, the EU referendum is the most important decision this country will make in a generation."

The Labour Movement for Europe is setting up what it is calling its "Westminster Parliamentary Group" later this month, with a reception in Westminster.

They hope to have recruited about 50 MPs to the cause by then.

For a party with 232 MPs, it is an insight into two other things.

Firstly, it is not just the Conservative Party that is subjecting itself to long, internal discussions about the European Union.

And secondly, the legacy of a crushing defeat at the general election has left a party nervous, unsure of itself and far from sure footed.

[Alf Bentley]

I'm leaving it there for a few days. I have enough serious shit in my life without getting dragged into pointless, bitter, paranoid discussions like this (my fault, too, I know). I hate the values of bitterness, division, paranoia, scorn and contempt that are starting to dominate a lot of politics in this country - and some of the debate on here. I really wish there was a government that believed in "one nation politics". There's a real spirit of nastiness at large in this country in recent years.....the Tories, still the nasty party!

 

Agree on the first three paragraphs.

 

For it to be an even spread on QT you pretty much have to view the Liberal Democrat selection in the centre, no one would seriously have described them as anything like that before 2010, I think most people would find it hard to put Simon Hughes, Vince Cable, Tim Farron, Norman Lamb, Charles Kennedy etc anywhere near the centre of British politics - Nick Clegg might be, but he isn't the Liberal Democrats himself.

 

Don't agree regarding CON-UKIP-DUP still, I don't think still being 20 short even on the highest poll ratings possible for each party would deserve such media scrutiny and I think that's exactly why no channel bothered given it such, we'll agree to disagree though on that.

 

I'm a bit baffled by the last paragraph, I actually thought this was a decent little debate, certainly don't think it has gone anywhere near across a line for it to be referred to as divisive, bitter or scornful, even more so as right after you have written that you have engaged in it yourself with that tried old 'nasty party Tories' line, I think it's time to put that away, no one believes it apart from the converted anyway and it just sounds like sour grapes.

 

Most people would see the Lib Dems as vaguely in the centre. Some of their people a bit left of centre (most of those you mention), others a bit right of centre (Clegg, Alexander, Laws). The fact that, under Ashdown, they were close to Blair, but under Clegg they were in a Tory-led government suggests they are/were broadly centrist. They're all to the left of you (but so is everyone but Attila the Hun) and to the right of me (but so is everyone but Fidel Castro).   Agree to disagree.

 

Re. election coverage/polls: My main argument is that the potential Lab/SNP alliance (a valid issue, but one actively promoted by the Tories & SNP for their own interests) got massive press & BBC coverage at the expense of other issues. The potential for the Tories to depend on DUP or UKIP, a potentially damaging topic for the Tories, was very real, if less predicted by the polls. It got very little BBC coverage. Yet you persist in thinking that the BBC conspires against the Right. Oh well! Agree to disagree.

 

I'm sorry if you find my last paragraph harsh or baffling. In normal times, I might have responded with more moderation. But these aren't normal times for me, they're seriously shitty times (health issues for self & wife; mother dead; father ailing; best mate dead; up & down to London every fortnight, away from home & family; on & off phone to various cash-strapped or incompetent public sector institutions....). I came to this thread for the diversion of some interesting debate about the pros and cons of the EU - and you're someone I've had many interesting debates with. Instead, I was faced with what seemed to me like a load of bitterness and paranoia about "stitch-ups", "the establishment", liberals and the questionable validity of the referendum. Normally, I'd just shrug and disagree. But, given all the other shit in my life, I found it very annoying - and seriously depressing.

 

The references to "divisive" and "scornful" relate more to other posts: posts aimed, apparently without humour, at everyone from Leicester city dwellers (as opposed to county types), Scots, welfare "scroungers", Muslims - and the latest, a positively venomous attack on Aborigines (they were hunter-gatherers whose world was suddenly taken over by people from a massively more developed society - not surprising they turned to drink, as the native Americans did, though the difference with the more - if imperfectly - integrated Maoris would be interesting to explore; I wonder how we'd react if a massively more developed race landed from Mars and displaced everything we took for granted?). I'm obviously feeling a bit more sensitive than usual, due to said personal issues, or I wouldn't feel so strongly about this. But, at the risk of sounding hippyish, I'd like the divisions in our country to be reduced, not increased - though I accept people's right to use democracy to promote social division. I don't feel contempt for people because they live in the county, are Christians or are unemployed, so the continuous bile against different groups lowers my mood even further than usual.

 

Maybe I should have put a winking emoticon next to the "nasty Tories" comment, as it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, or partly, at least. Newsnight was suggesting that half of their promised £12bn welfare cuts are going to involve slashing working and child tax credits, without any commensurate increase in the minimum wage. If true, that would be a seriously nasty policy initiative attacking the working poor and families, potentially tipping a lot of children into poverty....we'll see. They have a mandate for it.

 

Got to go down to London to look after my Dad now and won't be on here again for 2-3 days. Will deal with any response on my return....or might just avoid General Chat for a while. I used to enjoy the friendly expression of differences of opinion, but am noticing more of a nasty streak recently.....but maybe it's just me (I'm sure that it's partly me, anyway). Have a good weekend, all!

[Guest MattP]

Point taken on board Alf. The posts about the Scots are always in the main tongue in cheek.

 

Delighted to say though that it looks like Labour are going to give their support to the things I and a few Tory backbenchers want to see here, whether they are doing it because they also think it's unfair like me or because they see it as causing division I don't know, but I'm delighted now it looks like we'll be able to have an extended purdah period and restrict the influence that the EU itself will have on the referendum.

 

On more serious matters I do hope things start to pick up for you soon, I'm sure they will.

[Alf Bentley]

Point taken on board Alf. The posts about the Scots are always in the main tongue in cheek.

 

Delighted to say though that it looks like Labour are going to give their support to the things I and a few Tory backbenchers want to see here, whether they are doing it because they also think it's unfair like me or because they see it as causing division I don't know, but I'm delighted now it looks like we'll be able to have an extended purdah period and restrict the influence that the EU itself will have on the referendum.

 

On more serious matters I do hope things start to pick up for you soon, I'm sure they will.

 

 

Thanks for your final comment, Matt.

 

I'm too realistic to share your optimism about things picking up soon, but definitely need to introduce a bit of positivity into my life to offset the pile of shit that keeps falling on my head! Booked up for the Tramlines music festival in Sheffield today and bought the Rough Guide to Ireland to plan a bit of a summer wander over there....so that's a good start....and football will soon be back.

 

That need for positivity is also why I'm going to withdraw from threads on politics and other controversies for a while. I'm usually up for the cut and thrust, as you know, but just find all the hostility massively depressing in my current over-sensitive state of mind. It's tempting to stick around, what with the Tories apparently descending into civil war within 1-2 months of an election win, which is almost unheard of (Labour in the 70s, maybe?). What will the Eurosceptics do if they lose the referendum, I wonder?

 

See you around in the football and trivia threads. 

[Rincewind]

Take care Alf. I'm reducing my imput too (Well trying too) on the heavier stuff.It;s time to focus on the little things in life family, close friends, personal health and well being. There will still be selfish and compassionate people in this country no matter how much successive governments (not just the Tory led ones) and those in power try to feck it up.

Hope everything turns out OK. It is never wrong to focus on person stuff at times.

[MooseBreath]

I appreciate that Alf has been through some tough times that have delivered to him a shot of perspective, but isn't it a bit of a coincidence that all the Labour voters are finding excuses to withdraw from any debates now that the country is being well ran under a tory government?

[Rincewind]

That is debateable. I have found an easier task. I am going to convert the Pope into a Jew.

Anyway I believe Alf's reasons are genuine and it made me stop and think about the time I am wasting argueing with people  who will never sway from their views. I can find better things to occupy  my time.

I will still post in other threads so you cannot get rid of me that easily.

[Guest MattP]

Owen Jones joins the "Out" side of the campaign.

 

I'm slightly optimistic we might actually manage to pull this off now, it's still going to be hard fighting the main parties, the BBC and big business but if Owen can be turned anyone can.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic

[Webbo]

If Owen Jones is against something can it really be that bad?

[Guest MattP]

If Owen Jones is against something can it really be that bad?

 

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

He's been the most pro-EU pundit I can remember on TV for the last few years, admittedly a lot of it seemed to be based on little except the fact that he wanted to be on the opposite side to UKIP but if he can even realise that Merkel is trying to do with banks what Hitler did with tanks then anyone can be on the "out" campaign.

 

He still said he wouldn't share a platform though which is worrying, it will have to be one campaign if it's going to win.

[Guest MattP]

I don't care whether you are left/right or centre, is there anyone who can actually explain how Germany are getting away with what they are doing now to Greece?

 

The authoritarian heart of Europe and imperial intentions of them laid bare, Greek people vote for Anti Austerity government, in a referendum they confirm that opinion, elected prime minister then is told to reject that or be forced out. Parliament accepts.

 

Just what the ****ing hell is going on? his is nothing more than another treaty of Versailles.

 

Do countries in debt to the Eurozone just not hold elections anymore?

[SMX11]

Nice to see the left finally wake up. The greeks should have left the euro in 2008 but then like now the political classes of europe value the EU project greater than that of self determination.

This is going to end badly.