The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[simFox]

If anyone wanted a good reason to leave the EU, this is worth a good read.

http://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Fisheries-booklet-FULL.pdf

[Steven]

Fair points - if we are voting on a principle....

 

It's the unknown impact of exit that represents a void in the evidence for me. Everything I read is tainted with such bias - Any truly/predominantly balanced/independent sources out there to be signposted to?

 

For me its also more complicated as I do a fair bit of work in and with the field of Justice - The UN regulates our governments to an extent in not straying too far from welfare and neo-correctionalist models of criminal justice and are at least associated / signed up to the (not that we adhere to it arguably) UNCRC and some other useful human rights laws... Come out of the EU and we risk following conservative think tanks towards lining G4S et al's pockets at a time when our prisons cost per place per year far more than sending somebody to board at Eton and are so ineffective (inclusive of re-settlement processes) that 70 plus percent of prisoners re-offend within a year of release and the public swallows it, seemingly unconcerned that incarceration is not working, completely ineffective and rubbish value for money....

 

But I'm not just voting for my situation - I need to feel like I have a grasp of the threats and opportunities of an exit for everybody.

 

Don't come on here talking sense.   I am confused. 

[Webbo]

Fair points - if we are voting on a principle....

 

It's the unknown impact of exit that represents a void in the evidence for me. Everything I read is tainted with such bias - Any truly/predominantly balanced/independent sources out there to be signposted to?

 

For me its also more complicated as I do a fair bit of work in and with the field of Justice - The UN regulates our governments to an extent in not straying too far from welfare and neo-correctionalist models of criminal justice and are at least associated / signed up to the (not that we adhere to it arguably) UNCRC and some other useful human rights laws... Come out of the EU and we risk following conservative think tanks towards lining G4S et al's pockets at a time when our prisons cost per place per year far more than sending somebody to board at Eton and are so ineffective (inclusive of re-settlement processes) that 70 plus percent of prisoners re-offend within a year of release and the public swallows it, seemingly unconcerned that incarceration is not working, completely ineffective and rubbish value for money....

 

But I'm not just voting for my situation - I need to feel like I have a grasp of the threats and opportunities of an exit for everybody.

Don't we already have privatised prisons? By the same theory we could vote for a Labour govt who could nationalise prisons.

If we can make our own laws we can get the govt we vote for.

[Guest MattP]

Don't come on here talking sense.   I am confused. 

 

Surely it's not that confusing? You leave then you get the government you viote for in Britain making all your decisions? I do laugh at the people voting to stay in this because the Tories are in power now, talk about short sighted.

 

The way Europe is currently voting we could have a very right wing EU after the elections in 2019, the left could be voting to stay in an organisation that is about to stop them implementing their own policies just 5 years down the line.

[Nick]

Don't we already have privatised prisons? By the same theory we could vote for a Labour govt who could nationalise prisons.

If we can make our own laws we can get the govt we vote for.

 

 

You've missed my point.

[Nick]

Surely it's not that confusing? You leave then you get the government you viote for in Britain making all your decisions? I do laugh at the people voting to stay in this because the Tories are in power now, talk about short sighted.

 

The way Europe is currently voting we could have a very right wing EU after the elections in 2019, the left could be voting to stay in an organisation that is about to stop them implementing their own policies just 5 years down the line.

 

You can laugh at me all you like buddy - it's not short sighted at all.

 

The EU in my assessment are often the only body regulating the stupidity of conservative policy making in some areas - the likes of Gove and Boris being able to do as they please is genuinely scary stuff. I'd be happy to come out if I thought the government represented the best interests of the whole country and not just certain demographics. 

[Guest MattP]

The EU in my assessment are often the only body regulating the stupidity of conservative policy making in some areas - the likes of Gove and Boris being able to do as they please is genuinely scary stuff. I'd be happy to come out if I thought the government represented the best interests of the whole country and not just certain demographics. 

 

Well good luck with that in the future, this is the last chance we'll be getting in our life times.

 

I can sort of see your fears, I'd be happy for the EU to block all the stuff Corbyn wants to do if he did get elected in 2020, but I'd still rather he did it than be in the EU as that would have been what the people of our country voted for and I have no right to demand they are refuse that.

[Nick]

Well good luck with that in the future, this is the last chance we'll be getting in our life times.

 

I can sort of see your fears, I'd be happy for the EU to block all the stuff Corbyn wants to do if he did get elected in 2020, but I'd still rather he did it than be in the EU as that would have been what the people of our country voted for and I have no right to demand they are refuse that.

 

 

I hear you - but I'm not a fan of how we vote at the moment - it's not proportionally representative if you catch my drift.....

 

The fears I have relate to breaching human rights - privatisation will occur with this government wether we are in the EU or not but particular areas are more vulnerable and may result in pretty much irreversible changes. 

[Webbo]

You can laugh at me all you like buddy - it's not short sighted at all.

 

The EU in my assessment are often the only body regulating the stupidity of conservative policy making in some areas - the likes of Gove and Boris being able to do as they please is genuinely scary stuff. I'd be happy to come out if I thought the government represented the best interests of the whole country and not just certain demographics.

You seem to be saying you want the EU because you can't trust the public to vote for what you want? It's quite possible that a future EU May be run by exactly the same people you don't want in power but you'll have no way to vote them out.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

[Guest MattP]

The fears I have relate to breaching human rights - privatisation will occur with this government wether we are in the EU or not but particular areas are more vulnerable and may result in pretty much irreversible changes. 

 

Fair enough, I do find it staggering though that given what we have already seen with Andrew Symeou anyone can seriously hold up the EU as some sort of humans rights organisation (I'd recommend his book http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/8864518/Andrew-Symeou-criticises-extradition-laws.html), even more so given the European Arrest Warrant will create and cause so many more of these situations, I'm not saying the Tories are perfect but I'd trust them with my human rights far more than I would that lot in Brussels. We are the country that drafted the Magna Carta over 800 years ago now.

 

As for privatisation, at least you can vote for a government to stop it in Britain, when the EU takes on TTIP it's out of your hands forever if we stay in.

 

You seem to be saying you want the EU because you can't trust the public to vote for what you want? It's quite possible that a future EU May be run by exactly the same people you don't want in power but you'll have no way to vote them out.

 

Given the way a lot of European countries are voting at the minute it's quite likely we'll see that shift in the 2019 European Elections, people should be very careful what they wish for.

[Nick]

You seem to be saying you want the EU because you can't trust the public to vote for what you want? It's quite possible that a future EU May be run by exactly the same people you don't want in power but you'll have no way to vote them out.

 

 

I'm actually not particularly pro or anti EU - I am anti Tory policy when it relates to the criminal justice system and education - I'm pretty anti Gove as I deem him to be a tad dangerous. Currently the EU limits his ridiculousness so I have a fear of an exit.

[Webbo]

I'm actually not particularly pro or anti EU - I am anti Tory policy when it relates to the criminal justice system and education - I'm pretty anti Gove as I deem him to be a tad dangerous. Currently the EU limits his ridiculousness so I have a fear of an exit.

I'm anti Labour but I accepted their mandate when they won their elections. If Labour get in again I won't like but I'll accept because that's what the country's voted for. I can't accept having laws imposed on us by people we've not voted for who, understandable, want what's best for their country rather than ours.

[Guest MattP]

I'm anti Labour but I accepted their mandate when they won their elections. If Labour get in again I won't like but I'll accept because that's what the country's voted for. I can't accept having laws imposed on us by people we've not voted for who, understandable, want what's best for their country rather than ours.

 

Absolutely, I'd rather live under a Labour government for the rest of my life outside the EU voted for by the British people than live under Tory one where the EU can oversee the will of the countries elected politicians.

[Nick]

I'm anti Labour but I accepted their mandate when they won their elections. If Labour get in again I won't like but I'll accept because that's what the country's voted for. I can't accept having laws imposed on us by people we've not voted for who, understandable, want what's best for their country rather than ours.

 

 

I can understand that Webbo. 

 

I however am struggling to have that same ability to 'accept' some of the decisions and policy directions made by the government of the day - particularly this one as I don't trust them not to implement laws that are aligned to economic interests rather than moral/ethical values which may well prove to be irreversible...

[Webbo]

I can understand that Webbo. 

 

I however am struggling to have that same ability to 'accept' some of the decisions and policy directions made by the government of the day - particularly this one as I don't trust them not to implement laws that are aligned to economic interests rather than moral/ethical values which may well prove to be irreversible...

That's democracy.

[Nick]

That's democracy.

 

 

If you say so but I disagree that we live in one of those...

 

Your vote only counts if you live in a constituency where the voting demographics are balanced.

 

I also think governments are tied up in the four year process so can't get anything meaningful done.

 

I also think many MP's are pretty clueless individuals and really need to be experts in their field to represent the people affected by their decisions.

[Webbo]

If you say so but I disagree that we live in one of those...

 

Your vote only counts if you live in a constituency where the voting demographics are balanced.

 

I also think governments are tied up in the four year process so can't get anything meaningful done.

 

I also think many MP's are pretty clueless individuals and really need to be experts in their field to represent the people affected by their decisions.

Which experts? Because if you find an expert that gives you one opinion you'll find ten that tell you the opposite.

If doing away with democracy and putting experts in charge worked all the dictatorships in the world be affluent paradises.

[leicsmac]

Which experts? Because if you find an expert that gives you one opinion you'll find ten that tell you the opposite.

If doing away with democracy and putting experts in charge worked all the dictatorships in the world be affluent paradises.

 

The last time I checked there was next to no nation on the planet led by experts in medicine, physics and chemistry as well as the arts. If there was, I'd already be looking at visa requirements.

 

Policy around the world is shaped by political animals, not people who often know the most about the matter at hand.

[Guest MattP]

The last time I checked there was next to no nation on the planet led by experts in medicine, physics and chemistry as well as the arts. If there was, I'd already be looking at visa requirements.

 

Policy around the world is shaped by political animals, not people who often know the most about the matter at hand.

 

I have a communist friend I used to go to school with on Facebook, he claims Cuba is.

 

[Nick]

Which experts? Because if you find an expert that gives you one opinion you'll find ten that tell you the opposite.

If doing away with democracy and putting experts in charge worked all the dictatorships in the world be affluent paradises.

 

 

Hmm.

 

That's a bit dramatic - I'm simply asking for the Minister for Agriculture to have a background in farming. I'd like the Minister for Education to have at least taught in differing schools at a variety of levels. I'd like the Minister for Foreign affairs to have a background in international activities across a variety of sectors.....

 

How somebody can be a clown of a  Secretary of State for Education one week and Secretary of State for Justice the next is nonsense - If we are going to vote, we should vote for the people we want to govern us not a head of a party who appoints his team of best mates with no real practical qualifications or experience in the trade they represent. We should also be able to vote them out when they lack competence.

[Webbo]

Being an expert in medicine won't help save a steel works. Being an expert in chemistry won't reduce unemployment.

The expert predictions we had five years ago that told us e expect triple dip recessions, mass unemployment and raising crime have all proven disastrously wrong.

Let's not pretend that the govt don't have experts guiding them in every aspect of policy anyway. As always you can pick your expert to tell you what you want to hear.

[Webbo]

Hmm.

 

That's a bit dramatic - I'm simply asking for the Minister for Agriculture to have a background in farming. I'd like the Minister for Education to have at least taught in differing schools at a variety of levels. I'd like the Minister for Foreign affairs to have a background in international activities across a variety of sectors.....

 

How somebody can be a clown of a  Secretary of State for Education one week and Secretary of State for Justice the next is nonsense - If we are going to vote, we should vote for the people we want to govern us not a head of a party who appoints his team of best mates with no real practical qualifications or experience in the trade they represent. We should also be able to vote them out when they lack competence.

They have civil servants to advise them. Politicians decide the direction of policy and they are answerable to the voters for their decisions.

[Nick]

They have civil servants to advise them. Politicians decide the direction of policy and they are answerable to the voters for their decisions.

 

 

There's a 'bleedin obvious' thread round here somewhere for this stuff!

[Guest MattP]

Every minister has a team of advisors that are experts in the field, that's why they can shift around the cabinet.

 

Some of the best chancellors we have had had no experience in finance or economics, some of the worst had economics qualifications coming out of their arse.

 

As Webbo had said all the experts five years ago told us loads of things that turned out to be completely and utterly wrong, so far wrong it was an embarrassment.