The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Rincewind]

She(sister)  certainly got  me rethinking my original thoughts but I may still be an abstainer as I do not think I can make a qualified decision on all points.  

Her business is doing OK. She was working there a few years back and owner wanted to retire  sell part of it to her  but remain as a sleeping partner. She said though that she did not want to have to keep running to him for decisions and wanted a bigger control with full say in running things. They make custom made furniture. I asked once if she thought about expanding. She said no because it would mean more overheads, more staff and more uncertainty. They are a small workforce an everyone is willing to muck in. If she has to go somewhere for the day she can leave the locking and opening to one of the other staff with no worries.

If there is an order wants finishing she will help with the cutting of material. She makes enough to live on and run a house and pay bills which is all that matters.

Sorry gone off topic. But when referring to worker's pay and businesses I think what she was saying was whereas multi businesses have to focus on big profits and save money by hiring a cheaper workforce small and family run  business are more in touch with the workforce and are more willing to train young people if it means they will get long and loyal service from them.Big corps workforce change all the time. It does not matter if workers are on ZHC workfare or part time as long as the books balance so they will be happy to take on Euro workers willing to work for less than taking on apprentices.

Why I am unsure still is that even MP's from the same party cannot agree. My mistrust of Cameron may make my decision easier and vote out.

[Alf Bentley]

Why I am unsure still is that even MP's from the same party cannot agree. My mistrust of Cameron may make my decision easier and vote out.

 

 

Is your trust of Boris, Gove, Farage, David Owen & Kate Hoey greater than your trust of Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama & Farron, though? 

[Buce]

Is your trust of Boris, Gove, Farage, David Owen & Kate Hoey greater than your trust of Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama & Farron, though?

Not to mention Ian 'sociopath' Smith.

[swanningaround]

How do you reconcile your complaint about the negative economic consequences of immigration with the fact that Swansea has one of the poorest performing economies of all UK cities despite being 97.8% white British?

That one is easy. Wales is low on the priorities of Westminster, we have suffered for years from underinvestment. We (just like northern England) get less spent per head in Wales than they do in Scotland and south east England gets huge investment.

It's also true that the Welsh assembly government is guilty of letting most of Wales flounder whilst throwing huge sums at tbe south east corner. At one point Cardiff was having £7 spent there for every £1 spent in Swansea. The WAG even gave land to Cardiff city to enable their new stadium to go ahead. That land was apparently worth millions and Cardiff got it free, gratis and for nothing.

Immigrants don't tend to come to Wales, or stay here if sent here because well paid jobs are scarce.

We had a story reported a few years back about a refugee family brought to Swansea, given a fully furnished and freshly decorated house. After a few weeks social services lost contact and eventually went and knocked on their door, no answer. They tried a few times before getting ghe police to break in. The house had been stripped bare, everything gone. The family were finally tracked down staying with relatives in an overcrowded house in London.

What we do have in South West wales is a lot of Polish families. But your figures about the social demographic are probably wrong, it is 97.8% white but we have a lot white Europeans here. And a lot of English people have moved here because property is cheap. You can sell a family sized house in London and buy a bigger house in swansea for about a third of the price.

PS, immigration isn't bad for this country, if controlled properly like Australia and Canada do it.

Uncontrollable immigration is a disaster for everyone eventually. Looking at Germany......and across Europe, it has fuelled tbe resurgence in far right groups, people like Marine LePen in France are thriving on it. That way lies terrible trouble. I don't want to ever live in a country where people are turned away because of their colour or religion. But we should be able to turn away and/or deport undesirables, criminals or illegal immigrants.

[swanningaround]

Is your trust of Boris, Gove, Farage, David Owen & Kate Hoey greater than your trust of Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama & Farron, though? 

I don't trust any of ghem, but I trust tbe unelected, unaccountable eurocrats even less.

[Rincewind]

Is your trust of Boris, Gove, Farage, David Owen & Kate Hoey greater than your trust of Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama & Farron, though? 

A simple answer is no.  Which is why I cannot decide and would rather abstain.As an OAP  I doubt staying or leaving would affect me much. The Tories will feather their own and friend's bed regardless as will Labour bolw down to unions and pressure groups. The ones that will come off worse are the ones in the middle. The ones working 40-60 hours a week,  the unemployed, disabled and low paid workers. Noone gives a shit about anymore about anyone but themselves and that is doubly true with the career politicians of all parties. Labour LibDem Tory or any other you can think of.

[Webbo]

Whichever way you vote, vote for what you believe, not to spite some politician. There are enough wankers on both sides.

[Rincewind]

That is the one of your best posts Webbo and I have to agree. Which way is best for OAP's?

I trust your advice on this one.

[Guest MattP]

Is your trust of Boris, Gove, Farage, David Owen & Kate Hoey greater than your trust of Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama & Farron, though? 

 

Absolutely

 

I couldn't have a lower opinion of Cameron, Corbyn, Obama and Osborne now after the last 10 months.

 

Ted Cruz has done the Thunderer in the Times today, he says Britain will be "right at the front of queue because of our special relationship" if we go for Brexit, go Ted, it's a shame he's a bit barmy on other things. What a contrast between him and the long legged mack Daddy.

[Sharpe's Fox]

I wouldn’t trust Boris as far as I could throw him. Facts are he is a known liar who made up quotes when working in journalism. Not to mention a blatant careerist who even changes his name to get extra crosses in his box.

[leicsmac]

Absolutely

I couldn't have a lower opinion of Cameron, Corbyn, Obama and Osborne now after the last 10 months.

Ted Cruz has done the Thunderer in the Times today, he says Britain will be "right at the front of queue because of our special relationship" if we go for Brexit, go Ted, it's a shame he's a bit barmy on other things. What a contrast between him and the long legged mack Daddy.

Good grief Matt, if you think the full on woman-subjugating, bible-thumping, 1950s household-advocating bigoted lunacy that Cruz is involved in as 'a bit barmy', I wonder at what you consider to be full on insane in that side of the political spectrum.

I'm pretty sure he means what he says regarding international relations with the UK, but that really doesn't stop, nor mitigate, him being really bad news for anyone who isn't white Anglo Saxon protestant.

[Guest MattP]

Good grief Matt, if you think the full on woman-subjugating, bible-thumping, 1950s household-advocating bigoted lunacy that Cruz is involved in as 'a bit barmy', I wonder at what you consider to be full on insane in that side of the political spectrum.

I'm pretty sure he means what he says regarding international relations with the UK, but that really doesn't stop, nor mitigate, him being really bad news for anyone who isn't white Anglo Saxon protestant.

 

What's wrong with "bible thumping" or advocating a 1950's style household? Not my cup of tea (either of them) but I'd hardly consider it full on insane to hold those beliefs. The people who lived in those households were far braver than our generation will ever be.

 

The idea he'll start to persecute anyone is isn't a white anglo saxon protestant is a bit silly as well.

[digitalalba]

Lord Rose of Monewden, the former boss of Marks & Spencer and leader of the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, yesterday told MPs on the Treasury Select Committee that leaving the EU could lead to labour shortages and therefore higher wages for British workers. “If you are short of labour the price will… go up, so yes. That’s not necessarily a good thing,” he said.

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/bsies-lord-rose-says-brexit-could-lead-to-labour-shortages-and-therefore-higher-wages/

 

Not good for him, he wants to keep wages down because that's why it's "not necessarily a good thing".

 

Want better wages? Vote to leave.

[Dodgy Bob]

No doubt Ted Cruz isn't unintelligent but he does give off that kind of gormless, generic old fashioned right winger type of vibe. If he was your 90-year-old grandfather you'd probably find him funny as a sort of vestige. Bit I don't think he's the type of person a credible Brexit campaign would want to associate with. He's the epitome of what most modern people don't like about the right wing.

[leicsmac]

What's wrong with "bible thumping" or advocating a 1950's style household? Not my cup of tea (either of them) but I'd hardly consider it full on insane to hold those beliefs. The people who lived in those households were far braver than our generation will ever be.

 

The idea he'll start to persecute anyone is isn't a white anglo saxon protestant is a bit silly as well.

 

I have no illusions regarding the bravery of the older members of the 1950's household (they fought against a truly powerful genocidal enemy after all), but both of those ideas (the adherence to Scripture as a strict moral code and the idea of the male-led strictly disciplinarian household) have been used as a tool to prevent a lot of people from having a voice for a long time in a lot of places. Cruz espouses those ideas, and wishes for them to make a comeback - hence his Presidential campaign. I wouldn't really call it insane either - that was hyperbolic on my part - but you've heard the man speak, you know his views on the rights of women and certain minorities.

 

He's a zealot, and I'm honestly not sure the Times are doing the right thing for the Brexit movement by picking him as something of a poster boy.

[Guest MattP]

I have no illusions regarding the bravery of the older members of the 1950's household (they fought against a truly powerful genocidal enemy after all), but both of those ideas (the adherence to Scripture as a strict moral code and the idea of the male-led strictly disciplinarian household) have been used as a tool to prevent a lot of people from having a voice for a long time in a lot of places. Cruz espouses those ideas, and wishes for them to make a comeback - hence his Presidential campaign. I wouldn't really call it insane either - that was hyperbolic on my part - but you've heard the man speak, you know his views on the rights of women and certain minorities.

 

He's a zealot, and I'm honestly not sure the Times are doing the right thing for the Brexit movement by picking him as something of a poster boy.

 

It's a good idea, the British people should know where they stand. I personally like it, I'd also like to know where Trump and Clinton stand regarding where Britain would be at in terms of a Brexit, why shouldn't we know these things going to the polls?

 

People seem to be forgetting it's not even Obama's decision, he'll be long gone by the time we invoke article 50.

[leicsmac]

It's a good idea, the British people should know where they stand. I personally like it, I'd also like to know where Trump and Clinton stand regarding where Britain would be at in terms of a Brexit, why shouldn't we know these things going to the polls?

 

People seem to be forgetting it's not even Obama's decision, he'll be long gone by the time we invoke article 50.

 

Oh yeah, knowing the views of the current candidates is interesting and informative, but my point is any Brexiter with at least a modicum of understanding of the candidates themselves and their views would think that the endorsement of a guy like Cruz for Brexit is only going to damage their campaign.

[Guest MattP]

Oh yeah, knowing the views of the current candidates is interesting and informative, but my point is any Brexiter with at least a modicum of understanding of the candidates themselves and their views would think that the endorsement of a guy like Cruz for Brexit is only going to damage their campaign.

 

I don't think it will make a difference, the average British voter who is undecided rarely take a deep interest in politics, let alone have a intimate knowledge of the views of Ted Cruz. (I'd bet most people don't even know who he is)

 

Now Donald Trump coming to Britain and calling for Brexit, that would be a disaster..... I'm hoping the Brexiteers can convince him to hold a news conference calling for us to stay.

[leicsmac]

I don't think it will make a difference, the average British voter who is undecided rarely take a deep interest in politics, let alone have a intimate knowledge of the views of Ted Cruz. (I'd bet most people don't even know who he is)

 

Now Donald Trump coming to Britain and calling for Brexit, that would be a disaster..... I'm hoping the Brexiteers can convince him to hold a news conference calling for us to stay.

 

Can't really disagree there.

[Guest MattP]

Can't really disagree there.

 

Glad to have some common ground. What I would say is anyone basing there vote on staying or leaving the EU on the views of an American politician is crazy anyway, they are out for one thing and that's what is good for America.

[The Guvnor]

I wouldn’t trust Boris as far as I could throw him. Facts are he is a known liar who made up quotes when working in journalism. Not to mention a blatant careerist who even changes his name to get extra crosses in his box.

 

 

Which politicians do you trust then?

[Guest MattP]

To say I'm delighted Trump backing Brexit is being buried by the election news is an understatement.

[foxy boxing]

we've had every politician in the world commenting on it,can they please butt out and let the british people decide. weve had you'll get no trade deals if you leave, nobody will buy or sell from you if you leave,you'll be isolated if you leave we will survive whatever we choose but at the end of the day it is our choice and we have a right to make it that's called democracy

[leicsmac]

To say I'm delighted Trump backing Brexit is being buried by the election news is an understatement.

 

Bloody right. The man would be poison to the movement. I bet you're feeling relieved.

 

we've had every politician in the world commenting on it,can they please butt out and let the british people decide. weve had you'll get no trade deals if you leave, nobody will buy or sell from you if you leave,you'll be isolated if you leave we will survive whatever we choose but at the end of the day it is our choice and we have a right to make it that's called democracy

 

I've heard Americans say the same thing about their political process, but like their Presidential elections, the decision that is made regarding the EU WILL be felt around the world, and as such world leaders are perfectly entitled to speak their piece on it.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

we've had every politician in the world commenting on it,can they please butt out and let the british people decide. weve had you'll get no trade deals if you leave, nobody will buy or sell from you if you leave,you'll be isolated if you leave we will survive whatever we choose but at the end of the day it is our choice and we have a right to make it that's called democracy

Democracy is useless if people don't have the information to make an informed decision on - and given this particular vote centres on the UK's place in both Europe and the wider world, I don't see why contributions from outside the Uk is not justified.

By all means make a case against the arguments being made, but to just insist they're not allowed to speak their opinion is very small minded. If they effect the way people vote, that suggests to me they made a good case.