Guest WarehamFox Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 Slightly different, but not fundamentally different. I agree that the events you've listed make it pretty much impossible to deny that Germany has now totally disassociated itself with Nazism. But just because Britain hasn't undergone similar political change doesn't mean it can still be associated with past conflicts. Documentation of the kind Germany has is nice as it provides tangible evidence but it's a change in behaviour that we really need to be looking for. Britain does not oppress the Irish with military force, nor is there any intent to do so. That change of behaviour is quite sufficient in my view. Nope. I've explained to Mark why I think the Irish have no good reason to hold Britain responsible for past actions, basically it's because there has been an obvious shift in attitude and behaviour. In the same way it would be wrong of British citizens to attack the Irish for beliefs and actions that no-one in Ireland really supports anymore. You see no good reason why Britain is responsible for it's past actions? That makes everything simple, but you seem to be wiping out recent history. Ireland was a united country until 1921/22, then us British spilt it in 2 and caused the problems/troubles! You can argue who have mad it worse, but I would say the British governments over the years by far!!
ChrisFilter Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 You see no good reason why Britain is responsible for it's past actions? That makes everything simple, but you seem to be wiping out recent history. Ireland was a united country until 1921/22, then us British spilt it in 2 and caused the problems/troubles! You can argue who have mad it worse, but I would say the British governments over the years by far!! Absolutely. Anyone who doesn't get why the Irish might still have a problem with England needs to get their head out of their arse and do some reading up. I respect him for sticking to his guns, no pun intended. Why should he respect the British national anthem? Why does it bother anyone but dim-witted nationalists?
Harry - LCFC Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 You see no good reason why Britain is responsible for it's past actions? That makes everything simple, but you seem to be wiping out recent history. Ireland was a united country until 1921/22, then us British spilt it in 2 and caused the problems/troubles! You can argue who have mad it worse, but I would say the British governments over the years by far!! Referring back to the example of Germany - should we continue to hold them responsible for the horrors of the Third Reich? I wouldn't deny that the British government has behaved poorly in the past, sometimes extremely poorly. I just don't believe we ought to continue to attack ourselves or welcome attacks from others when circumstances have obviously changed. Absolutely. Anyone who doesn't get why the Irish might still have a problem with England needs to get their head out of their arse and do some reading up. I respect him for sticking to his guns, no pun intended. Why should he respect the British national anthem? Why does it bother anyone but dim-witted nationalists? Major contradiction there. You've said that nationalists are 'dim-witted' immediately after attempting to justify McClean's nationalistic views.
ChrisFilter Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 Context, old chap. I'll try elaborate slightly. Would you object to a Palestinian turning his back on the Israeli national anthem?
Mark_w Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 Referring back to the example of Germany - should we continue to hold them responsible for the horrors of the Third Reich? I wouldn't deny that the British government has behaved poorly in the past, sometimes extremely poorly. I just don't believe we ought to continue to attack ourselves or welcome attacks from others when circumstances have obviously changed. It's a bit poor to refer back to the example of Germany without at least explaining why my suggestion that the two situations are completely different (based on the fact that it's much more recent, many key perpetrators are alive and unpunished even though they could be, the regime responsible is still, in some respects, in place and an apology took a long long time) is wrong. Your attitude is similar to that of people who think Hillsborough victims' families should be satisfied because David Cameron said sorry even though nothing has actually been done to hold those guilty responsible. It's pretty depressing to be honest because most of the time you seem like a perfectly reasonable poster but of late in political threads you seem to have really let your Nationalism rule your brain and/or conscience. Major contradiction there. You've said that nationalists are 'dim-witted' immediately after attempting to justify McClean's nationalistic views. What evidence have you got that his views are nationalist? They could well be, don't get me wrong, but I don't see how you can say they are without any evidence at all.
Stadt Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 I find it hard to be pissed off about it unlike the crocodile tears on twitter
Ross-Kemp Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 I'll try elaborate slightly. Would you object to a Palestinian turning his back on the Israeli national anthem?I would if he earn his living in Israel and was happy enough to collect a wage from them.
Guest WarehamFox Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 Referring back to the example of Germany - should we continue to hold them responsible for the horrors of the Third Reich? I wouldn't deny that the British government has behaved poorly in the past, sometimes extremely poorly. I just don't believe we ought to continue to attack ourselves or welcome attacks from others when circumstances have obviously changed. Major contradiction there. You've said that nationalists are 'dim-witted' immediately after attempting to justify McClean's nationalistic views. Am I missing something? They are completely different, the Germans never ruled over us and spilt our country in two! And don't forget we still rule over Northern Ireland and imposed some brutal laws over the Irish for the last 4/5 hundred years. You really need to read your British history, it's quite gory.
Harry - LCFC Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 I'll try elaborate slightly. Would you object to a Palestinian turning his back on the Israeli national anthem? And why would a Palestinian want to do that? Probably because he feels a crime has been committed against his people, which is of course a nationalist view. I don't enjoy this attitude where people are quite happy to entertain the concept of a nation when attacking them but retreat behind "nations don't really exist" comments when it doesn't suit them. You did a similar thing earlier when defending the notion of an Irish collective while criticising the idea of a British collective. Pick one, please. It's a bit poor to refer back to the example of Germany without at least explaining why my suggestion that the two situations are completely different based on the fact that it's much more recent, many key perpetrators are alive and unpunished even though they could be, the regime responsible is still, in some respects, in place and an apology took a long long time. Your attitude is similar to that of people who think Hillsborough victims' families should be satisfied because David Cameron said sorry even though nothing has actually been done to hold those guilty responsible. It's pretty depressing to be honest because most of the time you seem like a perfectly reasonable poster but of late in political threads you seem to have really let your Nationalism rule your brain and conscience. What evidence have you got that his views are nationalist? We'd reached a point in the conversation where I didn't feel any ground was going to be gained. I'd just have repeated what I'd already said which is that I think the shift in the way the Irish are now treated is sufficient for a person to drop the contempt they hold for another nation. Recriminations ought to come but I don't think them not arriving justifies this level of animosity, I don't believe I'd act in this manner in this situation. I'm fairly confident he believes a crime has been committed against his people. That's why he feels so strongly about this.
Mark_w Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 We'd reached a point in the conversation where I didn't feel any ground was going to be gained. I'd just have repeated what I'd already said which is that I think the shift in the way the Irish are now treated is sufficient for a person to drop the contempt they hold for another nation. Recriminations ought to come but I don't think them not arriving justifies this level of animosity, I don't believe I'd act in this manner in this situation. I'm fairly confident he believes a crime has been committed against his people. That's why he feels so strongly about this. You don't think there being no recriminations warrants turning around when someone plays a song and not wearing a flower? What level of animosity would be justified? For what it's worth I'm from England and feel quite strongly about it. From Leicester but feel quite strongly about Hillsborough. From Europe but feel quite strongly about what happened to many in Palestine. Even if you're right he might consider 'his people' to be people from Derry rather than Ireland. Unless some evidence is produced, we don't know what James McClean is thinking.
Harry - LCFC Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 You don't think there being no recriminations warrants turning around when someone plays a song and not wearing a flower? What level of animosity would be justified? For what it's worth I'm from England and feel quite strongly about it. From Leicester but feel quite strongly about Hillsborough. From Europe but feel quite strongly about what happened to many in Palestine. Even if you're right he might consider 'his people' to be people from Derry rather than the whole Ireland. Unless some evidence is produced, we don't know what James McClean is thinking. Spoken/written criticism of the government's actions rather than a blanket rejection of Britain as a whole.
Mark_w Posted 19 July 2015 Posted 19 July 2015 Spoken/written criticism of the government's actions rather than a blanket rejection of Britain as a whole. It may be a rejection of Britain I suppose, depending on your definition, but it's not a rejection of the peoples of Britain as you were suggesting earlier in this thread. If he had a problem with British people he would not have put himself in a situation where he is constantly in contact with they every day. It is a statement about the governance of Britain. There is a difference between disagreeing with the actions of the country and rejecting the people. I agree that spoken/written criticism would be an infinitely more effective way of putting his point across. But surely a much bigger issue than some footballer not facing the right way when a song that lots of people in Britain don't like is played, is the one that he's trying to draw attention to, that people working on behalf of the British government committed a crime, the British government has admitted that and, as far as I can tell, done nothing about it. At worst it seems like a poorly judged way of putting a very reasonable point across.
BlueSi13 Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Weird, he seems happy enough to accept the Queens gold. I once lived and worked in Germany. Would I disrespect their country because I don't like some of the things they have done in the past to which my family (like a lot of others) were personally involved? No I wouldn't. The past is best left where it belongs. Behaviour like his only serves to reopen old prejudices on both sides.
BlueSi13 Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 You don't think there being no recriminations warrants turning around when someone plays a song and not wearing a flower? What level of animosity would be justified? For what it's worth I'm from England and feel quite strongly about it. From Leicester but feel quite strongly about Hillsborough. From Europe but feel quite strongly about what happened to many in Palestine. Even if you're right he might consider 'his people' to be people from Derry rather than Ireland. Unless some evidence is produced, we don't know what James McClean is thinking. Pretty easy dude, he's a supporter of the IRA
johnny the fox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 What would of been said if English players had snubbed the Irish national anthem in our friendly? just proves we are the bigger better people... small man, shight player..
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 What would of been said if English players had snubbed the Irish national anthem in our friendly? just proves we are the bigger better people... small man, shight player.. You're an idiot. Hundreds of years of British oppression skew things slightly, don't you think? If you want to express an opinion on something you should have a basic understanding of the situation first.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I would if he earn his living in Israel and was happy enough to collect a wage from them. You seem to be conflating an individual person or business with a state. James McClean doesn't collect a wage from Britain, the country. Even if he did, earning a wage from an organisation doesn't mean you have to agree with everything it stands for. I expect people working in the Wonga call-centre, for example, aren't massive payday loan fans.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 And why would a Palestinian want to do that? Probably because he feels a crime has been committed against his people, which is of course a nationalist view. I don't enjoy this attitude where people are quite happy to entertain the concept of a nation when attacking them but retreat behind "nations don't really exist" comments when it doesn't suit them. You did a similar thing earlier when defending the notion of an Irish collective while criticising the idea of a British collective. Pick one, please. Again, you're missing context. Nationalism and national identity are always going to be two significantly different things in an oppressing nation vs its victims.
DEMANN Posted 20 July 2015 Author Posted 20 July 2015 You seem to be conflating an individual person or business with a state. James McClean doesn't collect a wage from Britain, the country. Even if he did, earning a wage from an organisation doesn't mean you have to agree with everything it stands for. I expect people working in the Wonga call-centre, for example, aren't massive payday loan fans. I assume he pays taxes.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I assume he pays taxes. I'm sure he does. But why does that mean he has to respect the British state when they've been the historical oppressor of his people?
johnny the fox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 You're an idiot. Hundreds of years of British oppression skew things slightly, don't you think? If you want to express an opinion on something you should have a basic understanding of the situation first. your personal abuse says more about you than it does me... you nothing of my knowledge... respect is a two way street.. you need / he needs to show it to receive it..something you would do well to take note of.... ps. who was it trying to lure police officers into a booby trap bomb in the north this very week?
DEMANN Posted 20 July 2015 Author Posted 20 July 2015 I'm not saying he should respect the British state. I understand his reasons...It would almost be treacherous from where he comes from to do otherwise....Why fund this Government through taxes though, even if he does earn good money?
C-man Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I would if he earn his living in Israel and was happy enough to collect a wage from them. You do realise McClean gets paid by a football club and not the government? The football club probably isn't even registered in Britain, such is the state of the game. If anything, the significant taxes and National Insurance he pays makes the opposite of your point true.
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