ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 your personal abuse says more about you than it does me... you nothing of my knowledge... respect is a two way street.. you need / he needs to show it to receive it..something you would do well to take note of.... ps. who was it trying to lure police officers into a booby trap bomb in the north this very week? You're right. I'm sorry. I just find the paucity of understanding of the situation by your average Brit really frustrating. But that's a by-product of a right-wing biased media and it's not fair to call people idiots for not having a deeper understanding.
johnny the fox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 You're right. I'm sorry. I just find the paucity of understanding of the situation by your average Brit really frustrating. But that's a by-product of a right-wing biased media and it's not fair to call people idiots for not having a deeper understanding. thanks... remember when the british state was exploiting the globe... my grand dad / great grand dad, was going down the pit for 5 bob a week.. we the working class were oppressed just as much.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I'm not saying he should respect the British state. I understand his reasons...It would almost be treacherous from where he comes from to do otherwise....Why fund this Government through taxes though, even if he does earn good money? Sacrificing your dream career is one thing. Turning your back on a song is a another. I can only speculate as to McClean's thoughts, but what the national anthem represents is probably still very fresh in the minds of a lot of people over there.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 thanks... remember when the british state was exploiting the globe... my grand dad / great grand dad, was going down the pit for 5 bob a week.. we the working class were oppressed just as much. Indeed. Which makes working class English nationalism really confusing and a bit sad.
johnny the fox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Indeed. Which makes working class English nationalism really confusing and a bit sad. Im not nationalistic , but respect for anthems and not biting the hand that feeds you is a start of any repairs..even adams and mcguiness have come to terms with this..eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
Finnegan Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 We don't still have a problem with the Germans partly because time heals and partly because they did little to us. We were never occupied or subjected by nazi rule. I'm sure there's much different sentiment towards the Germans in Jewish communities or even Dutch or Greek. Ask the Polish how they feel about the hammer and sickle, ask a lot of western Ukraine their opinion on Russia. See how the Bosnians and Croats feel about Serbia or how the Serbs feel about Nato. None of us were born during the second world war and most of our parents weren't either. The troubles are a much more recent memory and Derry is one of the most passionate, militant communities in Northern Ireland. A lot happened there and it didn't happen lifetimes ago. That's the culture McLean was raised in. If you can't understand why that would leave a massive imprint on him and seriously dictate his politics then, I'm sorry, you're probably lacking a bit of world knowledge. Nobody is asking you to like his politics or agree with them but to dismiss his actions and expect him to have just gotten over fairly recent history is very naive.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 We don't still have a problem with the Germans partly because time heals and partly because they did little to us. We were never occupied or subjected by nazi rule. I'm sure there's much different sentiment towards the Germans in Jewish communities or even Dutch or Greek. Ask the Polish how they feel about the hammer and sickle, ask a lot of western Ukraine their opinion on Russia. See how the Bosnians and Croats feel about Serbia or how the Serbs feel about Nato. None of us were born during the second world war and most of our parents weren't either. The troubles are a much more recent memory and Derry is one of the most passionate, militant communities in Northern Ireland. A lot happened there and it didn't happen lifetimes ago. That's the culture McLean was raised in. If you can't understand why that would leave a massive imprint on him and seriously dictate his politics then, I'm sorry, you're probably lacking a bit of world knowledge. Nobody is asking you to like his politics or agree with them but to dismiss his actions and expect him to have just gotten over fairly recent history is very naive. Exactly. Put far better than I could have.
ScouseFox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 how come he plays for the Republic of Ireland if he's from Northern Ireland?
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Im not nationalistic , but respect for anthems and not biting the hand that feeds you is a start of any repairs..even adams and mcguiness have come to terms with this..eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. I wasn't suggesting you were. You seem to understand the way in which the state churns through its working class population to serve its ends. And it's getting worse under this government. I'm British and I don't respect the anthem. Why on earth should McClean? I wouldn't turn my back on it because I have no cause to, but I wouldn't bloody sing the thing. And which feeding hand is McClean biting?!
Finnegan Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 how come he plays for the Republic of Ireland if he's from Northern Ireland? In the eyes of himself, his family and the Republic of Ireland he is just "Irish." http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Frequently%20asked%20Questions%20about%20Irish%20Citizenship%20and%20Naturalisation#Q1
johnny the fox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I wasn't suggesting you were. You seem to understand the way in which the state churns through its working class population to serve its ends. And it's getting worse under this government. I'm British and I don't respect the anthem. Why on earth should McClean? I wouldn't turn my back on it because I have no cause to, but I wouldn't bloody sing the thing. And which feeding hand is McClean biting?! petty gestures are not principles...i would respect the lad more if he wasn't taking the "brits" gold.. . but I suppose his hatred has a bottom line price tag... Ireland didn't cover itself in glory in WW2 .. we all have to move on....
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 petty gestures are not principles...i would respect the lad more if he wasn't taking the "brits" gold.. . but I suppose his hatred has a bottom line price tag... Ireland didn't cover itself in glory in WW2 .. we all have to move on.... I'm swinging back to calling you an idiot. Which 'British gold' is he taking, exactly? He's not getting anything from the state. In fact, he's paying in to the state, so that argument is dead in the water. And who are you to deride the gesture as petty? It's simply a non-violent gesture of non-complicity with what the British national anthem represents to a lot of the peoples it has repressed over the year. It doesn't have to represent hatred, just a lack of conformity. I can understand that, and I'm not Irish. I'm just not an idiot and am capable of basic empathy rather than blinkered nationalism. None of this seems to make sense coming from someone who previously recognised the British state as an oppressor (and murderer) of its own people. I'm confused.
Voll Blau Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 God Save The Queen is a toss anthem anyway. About time we changed it to Jerusalem.
BlueSi13 Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I'm swinging back to calling you an idiot. Which 'British gold' is he taking, exactly? He's not getting anything from the state. In fact, he's paying in to the state, so that argument is dead in the water. And who are you to deride the gesture as petty? It's simply a non-violent gesture of non-complicity with what the British national anthem represents to a lot of the peoples it has repressed over the year. It doesn't have to represent hatred, just a lack of conformity. I can understand that, and I'm not Irish. I'm just not an idiot and am capable of basic empathy rather than blinkered nationalism. None of this seems to make sense coming from someone who previously recognised the British state as an oppressor (and murderer) of its own people. I'm confused. Oh wind your neck back in. Jesus Christ. I was really enjoying the hand-wringing up until that point The guy is an IRA sympathiser. If I had such a fundamental issue with such a murderous and oppressive state then I would NOT be living and working in it. End of story. I really don't understand the issue here. What statement was he trying to make with that gesture anyway? What was he hoping to achieve? Like I said before, his lack of respect and tolerance does nothing but tear open old wounds in the minds of many on both sides. Im personally beginning to think he's a bit of an attention seeker anyway. Refusal to have a poppy on his shirt, wearing an IRA badge on his Wigan tracksuit, saying a pro-IRA song is one of his favourites and now this. I think he just wants to court controversy as, after all, his footballing talents aren't going to get him in the newspapers any time soon. PS I hope nobody reminds him that he currently plays for West Bromwich ALBION.
Finnegan Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 To clarify, it's a Wolfe Tones song about the original Republican army, the one that fought for Irish independence from an occupying British force. Not the provos.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Oh wind your neck back in. Jesus Christ. I was really enjoying the hand-wringing up until that point The guy is an IRA sympathiser. If I had such a fundamental issue with such a murderous and oppressive state then I would NOT be living and working in it. End of story. I really don't understand the issue here. What statement was he trying to make with that gesture anyway? What was he hoping to achieve? Like I said before, his lack of respect and tolerance does nothing but tear open old wounds in the minds of many on both sides. Im personally beginning to think he's a bit of an attention seeker anyway. Refusal to have a poppy on his shirt, wearing an IRA badge on his Wigan tracksuit, saying a pro-IRA song is one of his favourites and now this. I think he just wants to court controversy as, after all, his footballing talents aren't going to get him in the newspapers any time soon. PS I hope nobody reminds him that he currently plays for West Bromwich ALBION. His issue seems to be with the the anthem for what it represents - not the current state. Not hard to separate the two.
Samilktray Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Never understood the importance behind a national anthem. What's the point in them?
johnny the fox Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 I'm swinging back to calling you an idiot. Which 'British gold' is he taking, exactly? He's not getting anything from the state. In fact, he's paying in to the state, so that argument is dead in the water. And who are you to deride the gesture as petty? It's simply a non-violent gesture of non-complicity with what the British national anthem represents to a lot of the peoples it has repressed over the year. It doesn't have to represent hatred, just a lack of conformity. I can understand that, and I'm not Irish. I'm just not an idiot and am capable of basic empathy rather than blinkered nationalism. None of this seems to make sense coming from someone who previously recognised the British state as an oppressor (and murderer) of its own people. I'm confused. Dave whelan is a brit.. is he not ? ....took his money at wigan.... we can all start playing the victim.. he is an immature young man with only half the picture playing to a certain gallery.... he will be plying his trade in area where the Birmingham pub bombings took place.. he and you should bare that in mind when the word murders is flung about.. it appears some people have a huge chip on their shoulder they need to get over..
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Dave whelan is a brit.. is he not ? ....took his money at wigan.... we can all start playing the victim.. he is an immature young man with only half the picture playing to a certain gallery.... he will be plying his trade in area where the Birmingham pub bombings took place.. he and you should bare that in mind when the word murders is flung about.. it appears some people have a huge chip on their shoulder they need to get over.. Dave Whelan is a Brit. He is not the British state. It's not complicated. You don't think centuries of oppression that only recently ceased warrants a chip?!
fleckneymike Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Dave whelan is a brit.. is he not ? ....took his money at wigan.... we can all start playing the victim.. he is an immature young man with only half the picture playing to a certain gallery.... he will be plying his trade in area where the Birmingham pub bombings took place.. he and you should bare that in mind when the word murders is flung about.. it appears some people have a huge chip on their shoulder they need to get over.. He wrote a rather nice letter to Mr Whelan explaining his issues with the poppy Dear Mr WhelanI wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton. I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those. I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one. I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me. For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth. Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII. It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people. I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent. I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in. I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons. As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation. Yours sincerely, James McClean
BlueSi13 Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 He wrote a rather nice letter to Mr Whelan explaining his issues with the poppy Dear Mr WhelanI wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton. I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those. I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one. I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me. For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth. Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII. It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people. I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent. I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in. I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons. As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation. Yours sincerely, James McClean Whoever wrote that letter is very good, shame he has made his support of the IRA crystal clear since. Also, he turned his back to the St Georges cross, if his beef is with the 'British State' (whatever the **** that means) then why turn his back on the flag of England I wonder?
BlueSi13 Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Dave Whelan is a Brit. He is not the British state. It's not complicated. You don't think centuries of oppression that only recently ceased warrants a chip?! Oh no doubt it does warrant a chip. But as with everyone that continues to harbours a deep-rooted grudge against this country, I question why they continually choose to live and work here?
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Oh no doubt it does warrant a chip. But as with everyone that continues to harbours a deep-rooted grudge against this country, I question why they continually choose to live and work here? Again, it's not about the country now, it's what the national anthem represents. I think his letter makes all that very clear. Not sure why it's proving hard to grasp. I'd not read it before, but it spells it out nicely.
ChrisFilter Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 Whoever wrote that letter is very good, shame he has made his support of the IRA crystal clear since. Also, he turned his back to the St Georges cross, if his beef is with the 'British State' (whatever the **** that means) then why turn his back on the flag of England I wonder? Because England is/was where the oppression was coming from within Britain - the two are interchangeable in this debate. I'd imagine the Scottish and Welsh would side with the Irish every time. Apart from Scottish Protestants, I suppose.
Durnerz Posted 20 July 2015 Posted 20 July 2015 His choice at the end of the day. Its not as if he ran to the centre circle, dropped his shorts and took a shit on the flag is it?
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