Migrants - What's the answer?

[bovril]

Had an interesting conversation last night with a Bulgarian investigative journalist.

Basically said that several hundred if not thousand refugees are facing beatings, robbery and sexual abuse by border guards in several countries, especially Bulgaria and Czech Republic. Any efforts to investigate and publicise this is blocked by EU and Frontex who want the influx stopped at any cost and give the countries concerned carte blanche to discourage these people in any way. So the EU admonishes the E. European countries then secretly tells them to keep going.

Public don't and won't care obviously when so many see the refugees as 'savages' (to quote the charming line above).

[Rincewind]

Would not surprise me. Is he an independent freelance reporter?

[bovril]

Would not surprise me. Is he an independent freelance reporter?

 

She. Yes.

[Strokes]

Had an interesting conversation last night with a Bulgarian investigative journalist.

Basically said that several hundred if not thousand refugees are facing beatings, robbery and sexual abuse by border guards in several countries, especially Bulgaria and Czech Republic. Any efforts to investigate and publicise this is blocked by EU and Frontex who want the influx stopped at any cost and give the countries concerned carte blanche to discourage these people in any way. So the EU admonishes the E. European countries then secretly tells them to keep going.

Public don't and won't care obviously when so many see the refugees as 'savages' (to quote the charming line above).

Another good reason to disband the EU. What was it, meh?

[bovril]

Another good reason to disband the EU.

 

Pretty sure you'd say that about anything. Thousands of people are going to start dying of exposure pretty soon, not sure what that has to do with disbanding the EU.

[Strokes]

Pretty sure you'd say that about anything. Thousands of people are going to start dying of exposure pretty soon, not sure what that has to do with disbanding the EU.

They wouldn't be able to block any attempts to publicise/expose this.

You are right, I would say it over pretty much anything.

[bovril]

They wouldn't be able to block any attempts to publicise/expose this.

You are right, I would say it over pretty much anything.

 

Pretty sure they would. Even without the EU it'd be the same countries dominating mainland Europe, maybe even more so. They are the ones who want to end the influx at all costs, despite publicly saying opposite.

[Thracian]

There'll never be "a proper answer" to major problems like this until we get out of the EU and develop some will of our own. 

It's time to take a leaf from Muslim philosophy and stop conceding anything in relation to our land and beliefs unless it's patently in our interests.

Let's evolve the country we want and make it represent and defend our values, our philosophies and our wellbeing because, otherwise all these things will gradually be eroded and taken from us.

Will we never acknowledge the problems our stupidity has so willfully helped create not only for our own country but for so many people in so many places?

Working alongside international partners towards mutually beneficial objectives is fine but imagining we can dictate world attitudes (other than by constant example) is quite another.

But either way our first responsibility is to our people and our way of life. We are not nanny's to the entire world. 

There's a pronounced difference between mutual co-operation towards a worthwhile end and submission because we should willingly submit to no-one and nothing.

And anyone requiring that we should is not a friend but a potential threat who's on the make.

Don't believe me? Just look at your junk mail. Someone promises a windfall but asks you to send them a tenner to release it. That so many believe this crap shows just how naively idiotic even intelligent people really can be and the principle applies to anyone making demands.            

[bovril]

There'll never be "a proper answer" to major problems like this until we get out of the EU and develop some will of our own. 

It's time to take a leaf from Muslim philosophy and stop conceding anything in relation to our land and beliefs unless it's patently in our interests.

Let's evolve the country we want and make it represent and defend our values, our philosophies and our wellbeing because, otherwise all these things will gradually be eroded and taken from us.

Will we never acknowledge the problems our stupidity has so willfully helped create not only for our own country but for so many people in so many places?

Working alongside international partners towards mutually beneficial objectives is fine but imagining we can dictate world attitudes (other than by constant example) is quite another.

But either way our first responsibility is to our people and our way of life. We are not nanny's to the entire world. 

There's a pronounced difference between mutual co-operation towards a worthwhile end and submission because we should willingly submit to no-one and nothing.

And anyone requiring that we should is not a friend but a potential threat who's on the make.

Don't believe me? Just look at your junk mail. Someone promises a windfall but asks you to send them a tenner to release it. That so many believe this crap shows just how naively idiotic even intelligent people really can be and the principle applies to anyone making demands.            

 

You're assuming everyone in the country shares your values and philosophies. Reading your posts on I reckon they are a lot less than you realise.

[Strokes]

Pretty sure they would. Even without the EU it'd be the same countries dominating mainland Europe, maybe even more so. They are the ones who want to end the influx at all costs, despite publicly saying opposite.

I'm not so sure, I don't think the migrant crisis would exist without the EU.

[bovril]

I'm not so sure, I don't think the migrant crisis would exist without the EU.

 

Seriously? If anything it'd be worse as the countries on the front line would have fewer funds to police their borders. Not to say that the EU haven't fvucked it up though, the countries on the edge have been talking about the slow trickle of people for 3 years and everyone has stuck their heads in the sand.

 

I'm becoming quite EU-sceptic. But this reaction to every crisis of simply proclaiming "leave" is pretty tiresome and myopic. Like the pro-independence Scots. Inequality and poverty, unemployment, bad weather, crap food, everything will magically disappear if we simply leave. Just leave and all the bad things go away. Na na na not listening to you....

[Strokes]

Seriously? If anything it'd be worse as the countries on the front line would have fewer funds to police their borders. Not to say that the EU haven't fvucked it up though, the countries on the edge have been talking about the slow trickle of people for 3 years and everyone has stuck their heads in the sand.

I'm becoming quite EU-sceptic. But this reaction to every crisis of simply proclaiming "leave" is pretty tiresome and myopic. Like the pro-independence Scots. Inequality and poverty, unemployment, bad weather, crap food, everything will magically disappear if we simply leave. Just leave and all the bad things go away. Na na na not listening to you....

I'm not sure they would have so much desire to migrate here, if the EU didn't exist.

[bovril]

I'm not sure they would have so much desire to migrate here, if the EU didn't exist.

 

So the EU has made the continent more prosperous?

[Strokes]

Seriously? If anything it'd be worse as the countries on the front line would have fewer funds to police their borders. Not to say that the EU haven't fvucked it up though, the countries on the edge have been talking about the slow trickle of people for 3 years and everyone has stuck their heads in the sand.

I'm becoming quite EU-sceptic. But this reaction to every crisis of simply proclaiming "leave" is pretty tiresome and myopic. Like the pro-independence Scots. Inequality and poverty, unemployment, bad weather, crap food, everything will magically disappear if we simply leave. Just leave and all the bad things go away. Na na na not listening to you....

Put up a solid argument for staying in the EU and I'll debate it with you, obviously the EU has some benefits but the negative far outweigh imho. I'm taking cheap shots because I'm a bored EU sceptic, so..........

So the EU has made the continent more prosperous?

More appealing to people of low value.

[bovril]

Put up a solid argument for staying in the EU and I'll debate it with you, obviously the EU has some benefits but the negative far outweigh imho. I'm taking cheap shots because I'm a bored EU sceptic, so..........

 

I said I was becoming EU sceptic myself, and my post was mainly aimed at Thracian who's argument was exclusively about Britain in the EU and seemed to miss the point of the discussion which is the migrant crisis. UK could leave tomorrow and there will be still be children freezing to death this winter, I don't really see how the two things are linked.

[Strokes]

I said I was becoming EU sceptic myself, and my post was mainly aimed at Thracian who's argument was exclusively about Britain in the EU and seemed to miss the point of the discussion which is the migrant crisis. UK could leave tomorrow and there will be still be children freezing to death this winter, I don't really see how the two things are linked.

Nothing will stop children freezing to death this winter.

[Thracian]

You're assuming everyone in the country shares your values and philosophies. Reading your posts on I reckon they are a lot less than you realise.

 

 

How am I assuming anything of the sort? "Values" is plural, "philisophies" is plural and "wellbeing" is generic. I don't assume anyone shares my views. What matters to me is the right of individuals to have the freedom and opportunity to evolve and express their own views rather than being systematically moulded to the views of others. 

[RedSoxUK]

Had an interesting conversation last night with a Bulgarian investigative journalist.

Basically said that several hundred if not thousand refugees are facing beatings, robbery and sexual abuse by border guards in several countries, especially Bulgaria and Czech Republic. Any efforts to investigate and publicise this is blocked by EU and Frontex who want the influx stopped at any cost and give the countries concerned carte blanche to discourage these people in any way. So the EU admonishes the E. European countries then secretly tells them to keep going.

Public don't and won't care obviously when so many see the refugees as 'savages' (to quote the charming line above).

 

Although I don't argue that you had an interesting convo with a Bulgatian journalist, i'd qustion the validity of her statements.

Sure, border force in Croatia and Serbia specifically are using force to DEFEND, their borders, that word's important - if they have been told to defend their borders, and migrants are attempting to hold their children up and grab their women to get through, the border force just can't be blamed for this. I've posted before, a video of a migrant dragging a women to a pit where Migrants were trying to get in to one of the baltic countries, the girl then walked back having been tear gassed - media reported it as uncessacery abuse, especially to 'innocents' - they didn't correct their stories when the video emerged.

 

As for the 'Any efforts to investigate and publicise this is blocked by EU' - that's straight up nonsense. They have freedom of the press, the EU is not China, not matter how hard an agenda wants to be pushed, if you want to publish a story relating to this - it will get published, perhaps she's not a very reputable source, or a good enough writer for her stories to make actual news.

 

Germany actually want an influx of migrants, it will help build their economy and sustain them for the future - the government don't care about the negative conotations allowing 1.6 million migrants (who could bring in as many as 4 family members each so 6/7 million within years) to enter Germany.

They have the lowest fertility rate in the world, and the home population just arn't producing enough babies due to a change in times, + western society and female advancemenets meaning women are persuing a career over child bearing - which is the reason so many western and advanced countries have dwindling fertility rates.

 

As for the EU wanting to stop the influx; ofcourse, this is entirely true. Sweden, jesus, SWEDEN are having talks about closing their borders - areas of Germany have become completely overwhelmed like in Bavaria. The EU are working with the baltic countries to stop the flow of migrants, and Merkel who has sensed an understimate of migrants, wants other countries to take their share now, and for the countries like Turkey not in the EU, to ensure migrants don't get to Europe in the future.

[Thracian]

I said I was becoming EU sceptic myself, and my post was mainly aimed at Thracian who's argument was exclusively about Britain in the EU and seemed to miss the point of the discussion which is the migrant crisis. UK could leave tomorrow and there will be still be children freezing to death this winter, I don't really see how the two things are linked.

 

For a start "Good Christian Blair" and friends should have thought about freezing children and decimated infrastructure before they took the actions which led to such chaos and despair.

And in my world they would have done because the whole damned adventure would have been seen to be illegal and those who sought to cloud that fact would have been answerable. If you sanction "illegal" wars then where's the authority to act against anything "illegal".

[bovril]

Although I don't argue that you had an interesting convo with a Bulgatian journalist, i'd qustion the validity of her statements.

 

I wouldn't. And I have spent time on the Bulgarian / Serbian border recently. People have already been dying of exposure. It is common knowledge that many of them receive beatings. The story will break eventually. There were murmurings about Czech border police over the weekend. When the story does break it remains to be seen how many people will defend it as 'protecting borders'.

 

 

For a start "Good Christian Blair" and friends should have thought about freezing children and decimated infrastructure before they took the actions which led to such chaos and despair.

 

I don't disagree.

[Thracian]

Although I don't argue that you had an interesting convo with a Bulgatian journalist, i'd qustion the validity of her statements.

Sure, border force in Croatia and Serbia specifically are using force to DEFEND, their borders, that word's important - if they have been told to defend their borders, and migrants are attempting to hold their children up and grab their women to get through, the border force just can't be blamed for this. I've posted before, a video of a migrant dragging a women to a pit where Migrants were trying to get in to one of the baltic countries, the girl then walked back having been tear gassed - media reported it as uncessacery abuse, especially to 'innocents' - they didn't correct their stories when the video emerged.

 

As for the 'Any efforts to investigate and publicise this is blocked by EU' - that's straight up nonsense. They have freedom of the press, the EU is not China, not matter how hard an agenda wants to be pushed, if you want to publish a story relating to this - it will get published, perhaps she's not a very reputable source, or a good enough writer for her stories to make actual news.

 

Germany actually want an influx of migrants, it will help build their economy and sustain them for the future - the government don't care about the negative conotations allowing 1.6 million migrants (who could bring in as many as 4 family members each so 6/7 million within years) to enter Germany.

They have the lowest fertility rate in the world, and the home population just arn't producing enough babies due to a change in times, + western society and female advancemenets meaning women are persuing a career over child bearing - which is the reason so many western and advanced countries have dwindling fertility rates.

 

As for the EU wanting to stop the influx; ofcourse, this is entirely true. Sweden, jesus, SWEDEN are having talks about closing their borders - areas of Germany have become completely overwhelmed like in Bavaria. The EU are working with the baltic countries to stop the flow of migrants, and Merkel who has sensed an understimate of migrants, wants other countries to take their share now, and for the countries like Turkey not in the EU, to ensure migrants don't get to Europe in the future.

 

Although I don't argue that you had an interesting convo with a Bulgatian journalist, i'd qustion the validity of her statements.

Sure, border force in Croatia and Serbia specifically are using force to DEFEND, their borders, that word's important - if they have been told to defend their borders, and migrants are attempting to hold their children up and grab their women to get through, the border force just can't be blamed for this. I've posted before, a video of a migrant dragging a women to a pit where Migrants were trying to get in to one of the baltic countries, the girl then walked back having been tear gassed - media reported it as uncessacery abuse, especially to 'innocents' - they didn't correct their stories when the video emerged.

 

As for the 'Any efforts to investigate and publicise this is blocked by EU' - that's straight up nonsense. They have freedom of the press, the EU is not China, not matter how hard an agenda wants to be pushed, if you want to publish a story relating to this - it will get published, perhaps she's not a very reputable source, or a good enough writer for her stories to make actual news.

 

Germany actually want an influx of migrants, it will help build their economy and sustain them for the future - the government don't care about the negative conotations allowing 1.6 million migrants (who could bring in as many as 4 family members each so 6/7 million within years) to enter Germany.

They have the lowest fertility rate in the world, and the home population just arn't producing enough babies due to a change in times, + western society and female advancemenets meaning women are persuing a career over child bearing - which is the reason so many western and advanced countries have dwindling fertility rates.

 

As for the EU wanting to stop the influx; ofcourse, this is entirely true. Sweden, jesus, SWEDEN are having talks about closing their borders - areas of Germany have become completely overwhelmed like in Bavaria. The EU are working with the baltic countries to stop the flow of migrants, and Merkel who has sensed an understimate of migrants, wants other countries to take their share now, and for the countries like Turkey not in the EU, to ensure migrants don't get to Europe in the future.

 

In other words none of our EU partners seem to agree what they should do or where the answer lies - having partly fanned the flames of the problem - yet we're supposed to be go along with them. You couldn't make it up! Idealism put to the test and found woefully wanting. 

[Merging Cultures]

Having worked quite a bit in the Balkans I can easily imagine migrants would be abused.

It's not an easy life there. So the value of life is quite low.

[bovril]

Having worked quite a bit in the Balkans I can easily imagine migrants would be abused.

It's not an easy life there. So the value of life is quite low.

 

Well, like I said, when the EU is actively encouraging it you can't merely blame it on 'Balkan mentality'.

[RedSoxUK]

Well, like I said, when the EU is actively encouraging it you can't merely blame it on 'Balkan mentality'.

 

The EU are not encouraging it. the EU are firmly against the mass influx. Left-wing media are encouraging it, emotionally driven leaders and activists are encouraging it, Angela Merkel (because of Germany's wealth and supremity within Europe) has been backed into a corner encouraging it.

 

Nobody in the EU is calling for Syrians to risk their lives to get to Germany, nobody in the EU is encouraging Eritrean's to cross the Med.

 

Where did you get this idea that the EU are encouraging this? They've made mistakes granted, but they're firmly against this.

[bovril]

The EU are not encouraging it. the EU are firmly against the mass influx. Left-wing media are encouraging it, emotionally driven leaders and activists are encouraging it, Angela Merkel (because of Germany's wealth and supremity within Europe) has been backed into a corner encouraging it.

 

Nobody in the EU is calling for Syrians to risk their lives to get to Germany, nobody in the EU is encouraging Eritrean's to cross the Med.

 

Where did you get this idea that the EU are encouraging this? They've made mistakes granted, but they're firmly against this.

 

Reread the posts from MC and me. The EU are encouraging abuse of migrants.