EU referendum opinion poll.

[Carl the Llama]

Well he's avoided mine.

 

He obviously wants me to say I'm against immigration so he can change the subject and accuse me of racism. I wasn't born yesterday.

We must be reading different conversations.  I was talking about the post you quoted where you were asked for an "example of EU law that troubles you".  It's not even a difficult one to answer either since there are already good examples of EU initiatives that might be used to prove the out camp's stance in this very thread.

 

I'm not really fussed what your answer is it just bothers me that you didn't bother with one after the number of questions I've directly responded to for your benefit.

[Webbo]

We must be reading different conversations.  I was talking about the post you quoted where you were asked for an "example of EU law that troubles you".  It's not even a difficult one to answer either since there are already good examples of EU initiatives that might be used to prove the out camp's stance in this very thread.

 

I'm not really fussed what your answer is it just bothers me that you didn't bother with one after the number of questions I've directly responded to for your benefit.

There are 2 questions in my prior post that haven't been answered. Why aren't you complaining to Barry Hammond?

 

What's the problem with that? You said;

So are you saying now that it isn't untrue?

 

That's okay as long you think they're sound and reasonable, but what if you think they aren't? How are you going to change them?

 

Some of the laws would be the same, some would be different, we'd pick the laws that suit us and not the vested interests of other countries.And if I had my way the other countries would have that right too.

I could say the working time directive, the freedom of movement rules, the  occasions when we haven't been allowed to deport foreign terrorists or the endless petty rules and red tape that comes from Europe but then the discussion would go off track and you'd want to discuss that instead.

[Carl the Llama]

There are 2 questions in my prior post that haven't been answered. Why aren't you complaining to Barry Hammond?

Because he's not been bothering me for responses in here.  

 

But mainly because your post quoting him is the only part of the conversation I saw.  Carry on.

[theessexfox]

What about the European Commission?

Well the head of government who is supposedly so much more accountable to me, along with said MEPs, have power over appointment of the Commission, which also cannot pass legislation without the approval of the Parliament and the heads of government. The point is that I have practically no real influence either in the UK Parliament or the European Union, so why is one okay and one isn't?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Webbo - you've missed my point entirely...

I'm trying to point out that "having sovereignty" as it is claimed is not as a big a deal as is being made out by the "out" camp - that the claims that the EU is some horrible dictatorship that is preventing us from making the laws we want is very wide of the mark.

My understanding is the times where EU law has interfered has been fleeting and has been generally around fringe issues. The ones i can think the EU have effected are the prisoner voting thing, the deportation of Abu Hamza, but i think that the Home Seceatray was more at fault there and some parts of Universal Credit relating to the disabled.

Even the "lack of accountability" part aimed at the EU is a little wide of the mark - after all there are EU elections, heads of states can bring up issues on behalf of the populace AND if a country really doesn't like EU law there's the option of exiting through a referendum.

So on the flip side, I'm also questioning how having this perceived sovereignty will make things so much better... what would be done with this new found sovereignty that couldn't be done now - I expect, not much would actually change and for the average person on the street, that change away from EU law may not be beneficial.

[theessexfox]

Webbo - you've missed my point entirely...

I'm trying to point out that "having sovereignty" as it is claimed is not as a big a deal as is being made out by the "out" camp - that the claims that the EU is some horrible dictatorship that is preventing us from making the laws we want is very wide of the mark.

My understanding is the times where EU law has interfered has been fleeting and has been generally around fringe issues. The ones i can think the EU have effected are the prisoner voting thing, the deportation of Abu Hamza, but i think that the Home Seceatray was more at fault there and some parts of Universal Credit relating to the disabled.

Even the "lack of accountability" part aimed at the EU is a little wide of the mark - after all there are EU elections, heads of states can bring up issues on behalf of the populace AND if a country really doesn't like EU law there's the option of exiting through a referendum.

So on the flip side, I'm also questioning how having this perceived sovereignty will make things so much better... what would be done with this new found sovereignty that couldn't be done now - I expect, not much would actually change and for the average person on the street, that change away from EU law may not be beneficial.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

[Webbo]

Well the head of government who is supposedly so much more accountable to me, along with said MEPs, have power over appointment of the Commission, which also cannot pass legislation without the approval of the Parliament and the heads of government. The point is that I have practically no real influence either in the UK Parliament or the European Union, so why is one okay and one isn't?

Govts change so obviously we all do have influence.

 

Webbo - you've missed my point entirely...

I'm trying to point out that "having sovereignty" as it is claimed is not as a big a deal as is being made out by the "out" camp - that the claims that the EU is some horrible dictatorship that is preventing us from making the laws we want is very wide of the mark.

My understanding is the times where EU law has interfered has been fleeting and has been generally around fringe issues. The ones i can think the EU have effected are the prisoner voting thing, the deportation of Abu Hamza, but i think that the Home Seceatray was more at fault there and some parts of Universal Credit relating to the disabled.

Even the "lack of accountability" part aimed at the EU is a little wide of the mark - after all there are EU elections, heads of states can bring up issues on behalf of the populace AND if a country really doesn't like EU law there's the option of exiting through a referendum.

So on the flip side, I'm also questioning how having this perceived sovereignty will make things so much better... what would be done with this new found sovereignty that couldn't be done now - I expect, not much would actually change and for the average person on the street, that change away from EU law may not be beneficial.

So why do we bother having elections at all? Why not just appoint a dictator and let them do the thinking for us?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Interesting essexfox - but of course those percentages, as difficult as they might be to quanitfy, don't really reflect what I'm looking at because where EU law would be removed, i imagine it would be replaced by something very similar in any case (British bill of rights for example).

In my mind, EU law is surely a broad framework, put in place so the whole thing can work and is not that restrictive in the general scheme of things and actually serves a good place to start for all laws being passed so I'm trying to find out from an "outer" a specific EU law that has actually restricted the government from doing something?

I sense the argument here is more to do with triumphant nationalism in reality, but given its largely right wing MP's complaining about this, I also worry about what they may look to do if they suddenly have this new found power - with a fixed term Parliment they'd have 5 years to implement without having to answer the electorate.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Come on Webbo - you can do better than a flippant remark like that. And let's face it, democracy is largely an illusion anyway.

[Thracian]

Just in case you're prepared to believe some of the shit from Brussels....

http://masterinvestor.co.uk/brexit/britain-should-vote-for-brexit-before-the-inevitable-eurozone-meltdown/?utm_source=Master+Investor&utm_campaign=3164ea0c49-Master_Investor_Daily_Bulletin2_23_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_25eff0bb7f-3164ea0c49-37433533

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Just in case you're prepared to believe some of the shit from Brussels....http://masterinvestor.co.uk/brexit/britain-should-vote-for-brexit-before-the-inevitable-eurozone-meltdown/?utm_source=Master+Investor&utm_campaign=3164ea0c49-Master_Investor_Daily_Bulletin2_23_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_25eff0bb7f-3164ea0c49-37433533

Objection - hearsay!

[DJ Barry Hammond]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/25/david-cameron-brilliant-uk-arms-exports-saudi-arabia-bae

Thought this stories quite interesting...

[Webbo]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/25/david-cameron-brilliant-uk-arms-exports-saudi-arabia-bae

Thought this stories quite interesting...

Do you think France would think twice before they sold arms?

[Webbo]

Interesting essexfox - but of course those percentages, as difficult as they might be to quanitfy, don't really reflect what I'm looking at because where EU law would be removed, i imagine it would be replaced by something very similar in any case (British bill of rights for example).

In my mind, EU law is surely a broad framework, put in place so the whole thing can work and is not that restrictive in the general scheme of things and actually serves a good place to start for all laws being passed so I'm trying to find out from an "outer" a specific EU law that has actually restricted the government from doing something?

I sense the argument here is more to do with triumphant nationalism in reality, but given its largely right wing MP's complaining about this, I also worry about what they may look to do if they suddenly have this new found power - with a fixed term Parliment they'd have 5 years to implement without having to answer the electorate.

You do know there are right wing politicians on the continent as well?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

You do know there are right wing politicians on the continent as well?

I am aware and I'm also aware they seem to be growing in popularity as the world looks to turn on itself - but I'm not sure if isolationism is the way to cure all the perceived wrongs of the current time.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Do you think France would think twice before they sold arms?

I wouldn't wish to speak for France... But the EU hasn't stopped the British government from making this deal, so sovereignty intact here.

[Webbo]

I am aware and I'm also aware they seem to be growing in popularity as the world looks to turn on itself - but I'm not sure if isolationism is the way to cure all the perceived wrongs of the current time.

Well when we vote to stay in, as I'm sure will happen. I hope us evil right wingers get a majority in Europe and start doing all the things you hate so you can tell me that sovereignty doesn't matter.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Well when we vote to stay in, as I'm sure will happen. I hope us evil right wingers get a majority in Europe and start doing all the things you hate so you can tell me that sovereignty doesn't matter.

But how would the right wingers gain that right - through a democratic process? So aren't you essentially arguing that "UK sovereignty" is better than a "European Soverignity" when in all likeness there would the be a cigarette papers difference between the two. Laws set in London, against laws set in Brussels, either way we'll have very little say if we don't agree with them.

[Webbo]

I'm not going to argue any more tonight because I've had a drink but I just think it's pathetic that people don't think that democracy matters. People who would moan like fvck if a UK govt did something but just meekly accept it because it comes from Europe? It's totally  nonsensical. The same geniuses that created the Euro, knowing it wouldn't work but implemented it any way, tell you that not supporting the EU makes you xenophobic or racist or nationalistic and you just swallow it whole.

[digitalalba]

So 36 of the top 100 FTSE companies the other day signed a letter urging us to Remain. On QT tonight, a panelist exposed 15 of them for getting EU funding 

Tough call that. So out of 85 companies who don't receive a bag of laundry, only 21, a fifth, want us to reamain. Hardly an economic disaster waiting for us...

 

BTW, the BBC also gets EU funding, so watch out for their bias reporting.

[Carl the Llama]

I'm not going to argue any more tonight because I've had a drink but I just think it's pathetic that people don't think that democracy matters. People who would moan like fvck if a UK govt did something but just meekly accept it because it comes from Europe? It's totally  nonsensical. The same geniuses that created the Euro, knowing it wouldn't work but implemented it any way, tell you that not supporting the EU makes you xenophobic or racist or nationalistic and you just swallow it whole.

Where has anyone said anything that remotely suggests that?  Please quote the comments which demonstrate those views.

 

Do you honestly believe that?  Just think about it for a second.  If you do, could you please enlighten us which persons started a common currency area with absolute certainty that it wouldn't work and are now calling people on your side of the argument these things 17 years later?

 

 

In your defence you did start that comment by openly admitting you've been drinking.

[leicsmac]

I'm not going to argue any more tonight because I've had a drink but I just think it's pathetic that people don't think that democracy matters. People who would moan like fvck if a UK govt did something but just meekly accept it because it comes from Europe? It's totally  nonsensical. The same geniuses that created the Euro, knowing it wouldn't work but implemented it any way, tell you that not supporting the EU makes you xenophobic or racist or nationalistic and you just swallow it whole.

 

Democracy absolutely matters.

 

However some (and I emphasise some, power should be localised as much as is possible) decisions are better made and implemented through democracy as a larger group rather than as a group of disparate entities all trying to find the best way for themselves to gain from it. Some things (energy and energy-generating resource allocation for one) affect everyone, and seeing individual nations squabble over such things is like watching the guys at the Last Supper argue about the place settings.

[Carl the Llama]

It's driving people apart at the minute more than pulling them together, forcing people together never goes well, the EU committed suiced for me the day it went into Greece and decided it could run the country ahead of what it's people had voted for.

 

The Dutch are clamouring for one now, polls there show 44-43 to leave.

 

Referendums aren't going to settle these issues either as it's going to be so close either way, we are going to have a European Union where at minumum nearly half the people of Europe want to leave, it has no long term future.

Sorry I missed this comment, I've just come across it reading back to see if anyone had given a good reason to believe the deal will be ripped up. If we vote to stay I don't see how that's forcing anyone together other than the minority of out voters who would surely be happy to see the democratic process triumph.

 

Your final sentence is somewhat flawed logic; over half the country didn't want Cameron in government yet here he his and I don't see anyone saying that our system of government has no long term future.

 

 

Incidentally I'm still none the wiser why Cameron's deal's being ripped up if we stay.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

There are 2 questions in my prior post that haven't been answered. Why aren't you complaining to Barry Hammond?

 

I could say the working time directive, the freedom of movement rules, the  occasions when we haven't been allowed to deport foreign terrorists or the endless petty rules and red tape that comes from Europe but then the discussion would go off track and you'd want to discuss that instead.

Working time directive - a UK employee can sign a waiver if they so choose (but key thing is, the employer can't force you to, even though they try and make it out as if it's a standard form - I'm sorry, why do I want to work over 48 hours in a week?)

Freedom of movement - this has been a long standing European belief, which many people have benefited from, but one of the further points of the European Union is to take the mass contributions from member nations and focus that money on improving deprived areas which would hopefully lead to less people needing to make massive and very difficult migration decisions.

Deporting Foreign Terroists - If you believe in the rule of law, you will accept that a criminal is only a criminal when they have been convicted, not before and that even after this point as human they should still be respected some rights, because we have the ability to show higher standards to those that don't necessarily show those standards to us.

We are allowed to deport Terroists within a fair legal framework, but equally that person has a right to an appeal, which is only correct in a democracy.

Red tape - this is commonly banded phrase used by businessman to complain about legislation that prevents them from making more profit, yet a lot of this red tape is in fact consumer or employment protection that has been brought about due to malpractice.

One of the often ridiculed red tape items is the Health & Safety directive, but then you realise the reason this was brought in was because these simple things, such as wearing high viz jackets and protective clothing on building sites weren't being done as standard before.

You could also argue that had there been more red tape in the financial sector, maybe we wouldn't have had the banking collapse?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Sorry I missed this comment, I've just come across it reading back to see if anyone had given a good reason to believe the deal will be ripped up.

I've been going through the entire thread myself and have to say kudos to you for excellent replies, explanations and general patience!

I've certainly learned a few things from them, but I also see the problem - people in this referendum will vote on their gut, and it's the out campaign that's dominating all the "gut turning slogans / ideas", they're providing simple answers that evade the reality - where as no one on the "Remain" side is doing anything of the sort really, in fact it seems a lot of the remain side feel afraid to shout out why they lean this way.

You've provided excellent answers, but because they're not bite size and easy to understand, they're dismissed. That does make sense in a way, because people are time poor and have been used to being spoon fed what they should think, plus the way the world is at the moment it's a lot easier to vent at a institution its them, they've done it, so if we get rid of them it will all change... but generation after generation fool themselves in thinking that at general election time only to be disapointed.

So unless there is a very silent but willing majority that are willing to secretly vote remain, I can see the UK voting to exit in June... and things then becoming a gigantic mess as Wales, Scotland and Northern Island all squabble over what they want to do. A mini political civil war if you will.