EU referendum opinion poll.

[Claridge]

I was responding to my own experience of specific points made by DJ Barry Hammond. Of course I see some benefits to EU membership and have concerns about what may be lost if we opt out but that adds up to a lot of questionable "ifs" whereas my concerns about staying in weigh greater. I honestly believe the EU will implode over immigration - it's been a colossal cock up and has alredy had consequences that were so unnecessary and predictable.

Turkey may be joining soon, think of all the benefits that will bring   .

The EU as a trading block was a good idea , but it's been ruined by interfering politicians.

I never thought I would advocate leaving the EU,but no one seems capable of giving proper reasons to stay.

Concrete examples of what the EU really does, that we would miss if we left please.

[Rincewind]

Interesting article regarding exit from a footballing pov..

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/eu-brexit-could-have-big-consequences-for-a-premier-league-full-of-foreign-talent-a6898551.html 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Interesting article regarding exit from a footballing pov..

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/eu-brexit-could-have-big-consequences-for-a-premier-league-full-of-foreign-talent-a6898551.html 

It kind of treads a similar pattern to a lot of other things in this argument... no one knows a bloody thing for certain (in the event of us coming out), regardless of whether the argument is coming from the in or out camp.

I also get a sense that a lot of the commentators on both sides, don't really have a clue about the EU and its mechanisms, they've judged their arguments on narrow minded reports.

The one exception to that is Borris, who used to report on EU stories in his telegraph days - but it's interesting that he was well known for embellishing / producing humorous, but not strictly true stories on the EU's workings.

For example, there was a story released suggest UK chocolate might need to be renamed Vegelate under "new EU law" because it contained more vegetable extract than the European counterparts... but this was in fact never a serious consideration, it was a throw away remark senstationalised to suit the telegraph readerships hatered of all things EU.

[digitalalba]

Twenty minutes ago I chanced on a Christian website.

I have much spiritual faith, but as regulars on here will perhaps recollect, I no longer subscribe to any man-made religion and what I'm about to say only served to emphasise why.

But it wouldn't have mattered what religion or faith I believed in.

Because what I came upon was film more horrifically obscene (and not in a sexual sense) than it's comfortable to ever imagine emanating from a human being

No I wouldn't dream of linking to it on here because it's so appalling and the moderators would quite rightly ditch the link in an instant.

But I will say this.

Anyone seeing the film and continuing to ignore the risks of open door immigration needs to examine their thought processes - and that includes every decent adherrent to any faith, any believer in goodness at all.

The wonder to me is that anyone could hate so badly as to effect such evil. What is so wrong with people? What makes minds harbour such blackness?

PM me the link 

[Rincewind]

I have also seen some things that turn me off religion. I saw a film on an African country may have been Nigeria where if a baby is born disabled there are witch doctors that dispose of them. Then on Twitter a Fundamentalist said that he would kill a child if ordered to by his god.

But saying that the majority of religious people would also be disgusted by these people. The main reason why I do not have any religious attachment is I find it illogical. I have always said that if you take out all references to gods, murders rapes bigotry miracles racism you would end up with a pamphlet for Secularism which I tend to class myself as being a member of NSS.

It is not the people it is the idea that you must follow a code no matter what it tells you to do. The world would be a better place if religion was ditched for a Secular society. You can have a moral code and be a decent human being without religion. 

[Thracian]

PM me the link 

Sorry but it would be irresponsible to post anyone a link although I'm surprised its even allowed to remain on the net.

What's worse is that it makes the things Rincey refers to seem so commonplace they're hardly worth commenting on and yet they are all really a reflection of the evil in people.

I'm not sure about the comment about what "most people" think though. I wouldn't dream on trying to assess what "most people think" because the more I read about the darkness in people, the more I'd expect to be wrong.

Please take my word - the video is way beyond vile.

[Rincewind]

Saw a link to an atheist blog. In it the mention a priest that has said that the way some woman dress they are asking for it and should be in the kitchen instead. The first comment on the site said that most likely it is because he wants to do it and it makes it justified thinking that all men are the same. Like I said in another post evil people are evil first then some use a religion to excuse their behavior. I will not make a martr of them by linking them.

I may not have explained that very well but I know what I mean and it is not defending the actions.

[digitalalba]

Alan Johnson, leader of Labour's Remain campaign just made a right ricket on the politics show, trying to make a positive point on immigration, he said, "If we come out of the EU, and we're in such a pile of state as far as our economy is concerned, that might stop people wanting to come here."

 

The look on his face said it all.

[Guest MattP]

That's the least impressive I've ever seen Johnson.

He didn't really offer up a single thing the EU has done that a democratically elected government of an independent country couldn't.

[MrSpaM]

It seems to me like whatever we pick we'll be worse off than we are now, the pro's and con's could both turn out equally catastrophic. Well confused about all this

[davieG]

I'd like to see the in crowd list the benefits of staying in rather than their negative this will be worse if we leave.

 

I'm sure in lots of case it amounts to the same thing but I'm getting rather tired of the this'll be worse approach with the outs calling it scaremongering.

[Guest MattP]

I'm quite pleased with the start for the Brexit campaign.

The way "project fear" is now totally associated with the remain side can be used to our advantage.

[Thracian]

So we combat hate and evil by maintaining a degree of separatism? Would these evil effects be overcome by placing an arbitory limit on numbers?

We know this world contains hate, it's impossible not to given the amount of people on this planet, but the good of this world will not prosper by assuming everyone who doesn't resemble a likeness to our reflection is out to get us, because the vast majority aren't.

A much bigger danger is if the hatters infiltrate our own minds than our boarders.

I don't give a toss about "reflections" but the more "haters" crossing the borders into the UK the more likely they'll influence minds so you have your answer because you can't have one without the other.

I don't believe that "decent" incomers will hold back the tide of evil - not while religion can be so easily and so shamelessly used to manipulate people.

The "decent" people didn't hold evil back in many of the countries they come from so I see no reason they'd succeed in this country.

But never mind what I think. How do you believe this country can evolve as a united nation somehow free from the potential horrors of sharia law or fundamentalist religion of any kind, given the failings in places like Iraq, Syria, Iran, Israel, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, Yemen, Somalia and even further afield.

Or are you just living in hope?

I can see what may be a genuine answer. It's radical but something I've personally effected already. But it's not one I believe others will have the conviction to take.

[Thracian]

Saw a link to an atheist blog. In it the mention a priest that has said that the way some woman dress they are asking for it and should be in the kitchen instead. The first comment on the site said that most likely it is because he wants to do it and it makes it justified thinking that all men are the same. Like I said in another post evil people are evil first then some use a religion to excuse their behavior. I will not make a martr of them by linking them.

I may not have explained that very well but I know what I mean and it is not defending the actions.

Are you saying the source of evil is not to be found in religious texts and therefore there's no connection?

Because if you are you should do more reading.

What's written is not easily discounted as ambiguous. But it is 100% certain those texts - every one of them relating to every religion - were written by men. Those men aren't around to be questioned but may all have had their own flaws or motives.

Tell any story - let alone a long one - and there will be differences on the first relating and even more differences the longer time goes on and the further the story gets from source.

But some people don't want to accept that. As I've said before in another context - they prefer not to see what they don't wish to. People, by nature, don't like to admit they're wrong.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Thracian - your post ignores the effect of environment and opportunity have on developing cognitive behaviour.

It can not be just luck that if you are raised in a positive and structured environment that you are more likely to replicate that in later years. True it's not a cast iron guarantee, but we have to deal with common likelyhoods and given you cannot identify an evil person by looks alone, I'm not sure how your sepritism argument really works.

Then again, I can see where you ideas come from because a lot of your stories and indeed the theories you express are closed and unopen to influence so it makes sense that you would also prefer a closed society - and be clear, this is not expressed as a personal attack but as an observation.

Your style of writing has almost a sermon like quality to it, you are not balancing the words use to make us think, you are directing us to a conclusion you have already reached in the search for common agreement.

[Harry - LCFC]

Your style of writing has almost a sermon like quality to it, you are not balancing the words use to make us think, you are directing us to a conclusion you have already reached in the search for common agreement.

 

That's called an argument, isn't it?

[Guest MattP]

[Guest MattP]

“So where will Europe be in ten years time? Without borders, without a coherent currency, without leadership? With the driving sense of purpose of a pilchard?

If I were a Brit I wonder if I’d be more afraid to stay in the EU than to leave. It’s always easy to whip up a feeling of fear about change, but it infects mostly those who sit in comfort and dine on fois gras. Me, I’ve always been a spare ribs man. I need something to chew on. And spit out.

Brussels is a bit of a used bus ticket. Anyway I don’t ride buses. There was a time when Europeans rode chariots and sailed ships, had ambition, ideas, built great empires.

They had two thousand years as the centre of the world but ask yourself. When did Europe last peel any potatoes? Their leaders have sat so long on their marble thrones that not only have their balls turned to concrete but their minds, too.”

#nofearhere

[Guest MattP]

#frankunderwood

[Rincewind]

Are you saying the source of evil is not to be found in religious texts and therefore there's no connection?

Because if you are you should do more reading.

What's written is not easily discounted as ambiguous. But it is 100% certain those texts - every one of them relating to every religion - were written by men. Those men aren't around to be questioned but may all have had their own flaws or motives.

Tell any story - let alone a long one - and there will be differences on the first relating and even more differences the longer time goes on and the further the story gets from source.

But some people don't want to accept that. As I've said before in another context - they prefer not to see what they don't wish to. People, by nature, don't like to admit they're wrong.

I am an atheist/secularist/humanist and there are many outdated texts in holy books. If a person follows the texts to the letter I think it is likely they will be that way regardless. There were times in UK past where women in short dresses were regarded as 'easy'. Do you not remember Mary Whitehouse? The Carry On films? Playboy? Even some threads on Foxestalk receive comments such as 'wow I could do her/ if they are showing cleavage. The link says because the priest in question was unable to participate maybe they thought nobody else should and rather than moving on like posters on FT do they are blaming the women for dressing as they do. Maybe some one can explain better than me.

Yes the texts were written by mainly men so are from a male perspective. I do not agree with it if that is what you think. I was saying the priest was wrong and it shows how ridiculous following a book written over 2000 years ago is.

[Carl the Llama]

“So where will Europe be in ten years time? Without borders, without a coherent currency, without leadership? With the driving sense of purpose of a pilchard?

If I were a Brit I wonder if I’d be more afraid to stay in the EU than to leave. It’s always easy to whip up a feeling of fear about change, but it infects mostly those who sit in comfort and dine on fois gras. Me, I’ve always been a spare ribs man. I need something to chew on. And spit out.

Brussels is a bit of a used bus ticket. Anyway I don’t ride buses. There was a time when Europeans rode chariots and sailed ships, had ambition, ideas, built great empires.

They had two thousand years as the centre of the world but ask yourself. When did Europe last peel any potatoes? Their leaders have sat so long on their marble thrones that not only have their balls turned to concrete but their minds, too.”

#nofearhere

10 whole sentences and not a single point made, I have to admit I'm impressed at your man's ability to waffle but I'm no wiser why you want to leave the EU after reading that.  Indeed if you read the bit at the end of the quote which you've left out he goes to demonstrate the brexit campaign's trademark failure to grasp how the EU functions in the first place, if I didn't know any better I'd say it had been penned as a send up of the campaign to leave.

[Guest MattP]

10 whole sentences and not a single point made, I have to admit I'm impressed at your man's ability to waffle but I'm no wiser why you want to leave the EU after reading that.  Indeed if you read the bit at the end of the quote which you've left out he goes to demonstrate the brexit campaign's trademark failure to grasp how the EU functions in the first place, if I didn't know any better I'd say it had been penned as a send up of the campaign to leave.

 

It was a joke, it's a quote from Frank Underwood in House of Cards.

[Carl the Llama]

It was a joke, it's a quote from Frank Underwood in House of Cards.

I'm aware but I'm glad you think so too because it's been reported as a legitimate albeit humorous endorsement from a writer who backs the leave campaign so when I saw you - one of the most staunchly anti-EU members on the site - quoting it I naturally got the impression you were trying to say something by it.

[Strokes]

Put your muzzle back on carl.

[Carl the Llama]

Put your muzzle back on carl.

Muzzle on.  Fortunately it serves no practical purpose to prevent me from typing.