What is wrong with St George's Day celebrations?

[Finnaldo]

As brave as the veterans were, what they fought for, which isn't what we have today, RD cannot be more important.

 

Enough are, that's why St George's Day is such a shambles.

Get a few to feel down troden on, and more than a few will feel it

Get more than a few, and a sizeable chunk will feel it

Get a sizeable chunk etc etc etc

 

This is going in circles, so many have posted and said they were simply not bothered.

 

They don't like traditional English culture, they prefer modern English culture. That shouldn't mean we indoctrinate children by ploughing them with what they should be and enjoy, modern England stands for democracy and freedom of the Englishman and that's why our grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought and died. 

 

Sporting competitions, especially the World Cup, has people come out with bunting, flags, shirts and all. You can tell when England win or are involved in international tournaments in most the big sports, and whilst we maybe extremely critical about our football team, it draws people who aren't usually remotely bothered about football. Regardless if the team looks awful

 

It because people ARE bothered about England and National Pride. Football (or any sport, often also Rugby or Cricket) is a modern institution that all can get at least moderately excited about. A poxy saint's day about brass bands and morris dancing has no connection to young people, they don't care, especially when it's hijacked by the far-right who are so out of touch with them.

 

If National pride is dead, can you explain the millions of England fans will be waving the flag, wear their shirts and chanting for England?  

[Guest MattP]

Englishness is English ethnicity. I could list a million things. For want of a better phrasing, it is what it is.

I wasn't saying that, i'm saying in England it should be the most important aspect of wider society in terms of culture and wellbeing.

 

It has and it will, but only by the English, the ethnic English. You're looking at about 1700 years ago.

 

I have wrote lists, not in the way you want though.

 

Think the Saxon invasion was around the 7th century so a bit shorter than that, the demographic was massively changed though a few times after that with the further Viking and Norman conquests that had huge impact on what then was a small population.

 

Although you could argue "Englishness" only really started when the counties combined and Alfred the Great ruled over Wessex, so about 1,250 years ago.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I actually went to the council and asked them to put on an event on St George's Day to celebrate English culture and the bloke asked me what, in my eyes, that constituted, and I said I didn't know, but I stopped to think about it for a minute and then I realised that all English culture amounts to now is saying that it's under threat from other cultures and that when you walk down the street you hear so many different languages that it doesn't feel like your country any more (except for when you go into the country and it's all exactly the same as it was) and you preferred it when the people you don't want to talk to at least spoke English and he said it might be a bit difficult to organise an event around that but maybe you could put on a raffle or something

[Guest MattP]

Nothing more English than a chicken Vindaloo or a kebab on a Saturday night to celebrate a City win and raise a glass of Stella to toast the City owners Ranieri and a Riyad Mahrez winner with an assist by Kante.

 

The whole "Let's laugh at you celebrating your nation eating a Indian curry, driving a Swedish car, watching a Japanese TV" crowd are just as bad as the "OMG I can't my flag up it offends every Muslim and Christmas is banned where's St George's Day they do Diwali celebrations" mob.

 

Both a set of numptys that try to use the whole day to push their own agenda.

[digitalalba]

Care to elaborate a little more on the Steadfast trust?

 

 

When the daily mail calls you far right extremists you know you've gone too far:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958473/Giving-Nazi-salute-chanting-White-Power-pushing-works-Hitler-extremists-registered-official-charity.html

 

Apart from that they are a bunch of frauds:

 

http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/took-long-remove-steadfast-trust-register-charity-commission-admits/governance/article/1335371

 

This is exactly why National pride gets a bad name and why Saint Georges day is under celebrated, because of people like you who try to use it to make a political point, you want a Saint Georges Day celebration don't try and turn it into some political campaign for the rights of white Anglo-Saxons.

http://steadfasttrust.org.uk/

 

 Quoting wiki politically? Really? Are you mad? wiki was set up by 2 far left activists.

 

Daily mail? Are you mad? More politically left views.

Third Sector? 

 

There is nothing far right, far left, or centre about being English. When people site this as a reason for not showing their Englishness, it's because they don't want to be English. They love deceiving you, and you fall for it.

[Captain...]

Why does everyone always bang on about bloody Morris dancing for these things, it isn't even English it came over from foreign lands in the 16th century, it is also not got much heritage in Leicester. I've seen Molly Dancers in Norfolk and that is great because it is part of their heritage and it is not some half arsed attempt at finding something "recognisably English" same with the Maypole  always see it as more of a southern thing.

 

If  you want to celebrate Englishness, I'd much rather listen to the music of the Beatles and the Stones or a big Brit pop nostalgia fest than someone playing Greensleeves on a lute, not that lutes don't have their place, but on St Patricks day you don't listen to 12th Century Irish monks chanting you listen to the Pogues  and do Riverdance, because these traditions have been kept alive by keeping them modern. A lot of our traditions have died because they are a bit shit, so why torture yourselves by forcing yourself to endure something you don't enjoy instead of embracing all the great things about modern Britain.

[Finnaldo]

Think the Saxon invasion was around the 7th century so a bit shorter than that, the demographic was massively changed though a few times after that with the further Viking and Norman conquests that had huge impact on what then was a small population.

 

Although you could argue "Englishness" only really started when the counties combined and Alfred the Great ruled over Wessex, so about 1,250 years ago.

 

And that's only the start. To constitute our language, which was really shaped by Shakespeare in the late 1500s, claiming that our language was created 1,700 years ago then trying to read Chaucer from 700 years ago will give you a right kick up the arse

 

Our cuisine, which Sunday Roast was a byproduct of the Industrial Revolution in the 1800s, with Fish & Chips towards the end of the same century and the good old curry wasn't on the menu until the 60s.

 

Most of Pass times were either adopted by the Victorians or, at a stretch, the Georgians, when cycling, sport and social occasions were sharpened up.

 

So really, culturally we're looking at a remarkably complex 300 years of being what we'd call 'English', but historically that would stretch well back. A lot to be proud of

[digitalalba]

This is going in circles, so many have posted and said they were simply not bothered.

 

They don't like traditional English culture, they prefer modern English culture. That shouldn't mean we indoctrinate children by ploughing them with what they should be and enjoy, modern England stands for democracy and freedom of the Englishman and that's why our grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought and died.

 

Sporting competitions, especially the World Cup, has people come out with bunting, flags, shirts and all. You can tell when England win or are involved in international tournaments in most the big sports, and whilst we maybe extremely critical about our football team, it draws people who aren't usually remotely bothered about football. Regardless if the team looks awful

 

It because people ARE bothered about England and National Pride. Football (or any sport, often also Rugby or Cricket) is a modern institution that all can get at least moderately excited about. A poxy saint's day about brass bands and morris dancing has no connection to young people, they don't care, especially when it's hijacked by the far-right who are so out of touch with them.

 

If National pride is dead, can you explain the millions of England fans will be waving the flag, wear their shirts and chanting for England?  

Except, that's not what they were given.

 

England football team isn't Englishness. You can be born in Brazil and play for England, though unlikely.

 

Kids don't learn about Englishness at school, so they become distanced from it. It is noticeable, that the education system only advertises jobs in lefty papers.

 

National pride isn't dead. People can only support one national team, like they can only support one domestic team. England it is then.

[Guest MattP]

Why does everyone always bang on about bloody Morris dancing for these things, it isn't even English it came over from foreign lands in the 16th century, it is also not got much heritage in Leicester. I've seen Molly Dancers in Norfolk and that is great because it is part of their heritage and it is not some half arsed attempt at finding something "recognisably English" same with the Maypole  always see it as more of a southern thing.

 

I went to see the Anstey Morrismen last year in the Crown, clearly a market for it as the place was packed, learnt quite a bit as well, the colours of the facepaint and clothing etc is very tribal and it mainly seem to refer to the region of England they were from, mostly from Norfolk as you say or from the border towns, no one who was actually involved or knew anything about seemed to believe it was some show of "Englishness".

 

It was good, I still think some were using it as an excuse to black up though in 2016.

[Guest MattP]

And that's only the start. To constitute our language, which was really shaped by Shakespeare in the late 1500s, claiming that our language was created 1,700 years ago then trying to read Chaucer from 700 years ago will give you a right kick up the arse

 

I think reading Olde English is still something that's only been mastered by a handful of people.

 

I'm still determined though to give my child a name that starts with Æ. It's too cool to die.

[Finnaldo]

I think reading Olde English is still something that's only been mastered by a handful of people.

 

I'm still determined though to give my child a name that starts with Æ. It's too cool to die.

 

I'd definitely go for the old Æthelwulf if we're aiming for badassness.

 

Failing that, Anglo-Norse it up with Cnut. 

[Captain...]

I went to see the Anstey Morrismen last year in the Crown, clearly a market for it as the place was packed, learnt quite a bit as well, the colours of the facepaint and clothing etc is very tribal and it mainly seem to refer to the region of England they were from, mostly from Norfolk as you say or from the border towns, no one who was actually involved or knew anything about seemed to believe it was some show of "Englishness".

 

It was good, I still think some were using it as an excuse to black up though in 2016.

 

When it is done well it is good, and you  could see in Norfolk that they have adapted and modernised and at times it was quite aggressive, it is just this obsession with the stereotypical men all in white with hankies and bells prancing around being the only thing that is English.

 

They do love to black up:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=molly+dancers&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR0uWk8K7MAhXqI8AKHQwbDZgQ_AUICCgC&biw=1366&bih=713

 

Also Green an blue and whit and yellow, but mainly black.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I went to see the Anstey Morrismen last year in the Crown, clearly a market for it as the place was packed, learnt quite a bit as well, the colours of the facepaint and clothing etc is very tribal and it mainly seem to refer to the region of England they were from, mostly from Norfolk as you say or from the border towns, no one who was actually involved or knew anything about seemed to believe it was some show of "Englishness".

 

It was good, I still think some were using it as an excuse to black up though in 2016.

 

Don't fence me in, bro.

 

And anyway, what happens in Anstey stays in Anstey, right?

[Guest MattP]

I'd definitely go for the old Æthelwulf if we're aiming for badassness.

 

Failing that, Anglo-Norse it up with Cnut. 

 

I'm thinking a combination, big fan of the unready so Æthelred the Cnut - has a lovely ring to it.

 

Don't fence me in, bro.

 

And anyway, what happens in Anstey stays in Anstey, right?

 

Certainly does, very strange place.

When it is done well it is good, and you  could see in Norfolk that they have adapted and modernised and at times it was quite aggressive, it is just this obsession with the stereotypical men all in white with hankies and bells prancing around being the only thing that is English.

 

They do love to black up:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=molly+dancers&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR0uWk8K7MAhXqI8AKHQwbDZgQ_AUICCgC&biw=1366&bih=713

 

Also Green an blue and whit and yellow, but mainly black.

 

 

Marvellous. Even comrade Corbyn is getting involved on the right.

 

[Smudge]

The Battle of Hastings wasn't a military victory, it was arguably England's most significant defeat, as it signified the only time it was successfully invaded.

 

Not sure about that.

 

William of Orange successfully invaded England in 1688 and took the crown from James II.

 

One could argue that Henry Tudor also successfully invaded England in 1485 and taking the realm at Bosworth.

[Bellend Sebastian]

 

 

Marvellous. Even comrade Corbyn is getting involved on the right.

 

 

 

That's his natural skin colour, he normally gets whited up, which I can't decide if I'm OK with

[Alf Bentley]

Englishness is English ethnicity. I could list a million things. For want of a better phrasing, it is what it is.

I wasn't saying that, i'm saying in England it should be the most important aspect of wider society in terms of culture and wellbeing.

 

It has and it will, but only by the English, the ethnic English. You're looking at about 1700 years ago.

 

I have wrote lists, not in the way you want though.

 

 

So, to be English you have to be ethnically Anglo-Saxon, descended from migrants arriving from northern Germany about 1500 years ago.

I wonder how many people can trace their ancestry back that far?

 

With my many Irish relations, I'm obviously not English, even though I was born here and have lived here most of my life.

Some of my lot are Normans, but they still don't quite make the grade, do they?

Presumably others are descended from ancient Britons or Celts who were here before the Anglo-Saxons, but you don't accept them as English either, do you?

 

David Cameron had a Scottish Dad, so he's obviously not English.

Presumably the Queen isn't English either, what with all those Norman, Welsh Tudor and Scottish Stuart ancestors? Though Hanover is in Saxony, isn't it?

 

Have you traced your ancestry back to the Anglo-Saxons? Perhaps you should before 23rd April 2017. You might find that you're not English and should be celebrating a different patron saint. 

 

To be serious briefly, picking up on Captain's point, one thing that this country really is known for is its wide range of music. That could be the foundations of an enjoyable - and inexpensive - St. George's Day 2017 event.

A few street/park stages with local bands and musicians, the odd beer tent, face-painting stall etc.

Personally, I'd want it to be inclusive, allowing people to take part whatever their ethnicity. But maybe you could run a "Steadfast Trust Anglo-Saxon Stage", open only to people who could document their ancestry back to the Anglo-Saxon migrations of 500 AD or whatever.....ensuring that they'd not bred with any Ancient Britons, Celts, Normans or products of empire. "Sorry Your Majesty, Call-me-Dave, Wes, Demarai, you're not English, you can't take part.....OK, Kasper, you're a Jute, so I suppose you're in!"

[Webbo]

Not sure about that.

 

William of Orange successfully invaded England in 1688 and took the crown from James II.

 

One could argue that Henry Tudor also successfully invaded England in 1485 and taking the realm at Bosworth.

Probably more of a protestant coup than an invasion.

[Smudge]

Probably more of a protestant coup than an invasion.

 

Define it how you like Webbo but if someone set sail with an army from a foreign place I'd say it was an invasion. 

 

I'm just pointing out that there is this false notion that England hasn't been successfully invaded since 1066 and according to the history books that aint so.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

The Roman invasion of Britain under the Emperor Claudius was the only true invasion of our country, although it took many, many years, and hard work to complete. Hibernia (Ireland) was not considered worthy, and Scotland, was never subdued. Wales and England were. 

 

There is a lot of relevance in the above, as St. George was at one time a Roman soldier! It's a funny old world  

 

I love Roman history. 

 

Salvte Divvs Avgvstus et S.P.Q.R.

[digitalalba]

So, to be English you have to be ethnically Anglo-Saxon, descended from migrants arriving from northern Germany about 1500 years ago.

I wonder how many people can trace their ancestry back that far?

 

With my many Irish relations, I'm obviously not English, even though I was born here and have lived here most of my life.

Some of my lot are Normans, but they still don't quite make the grade, do they?

Presumably others are descended from ancient Britons or Celts who were here before the Anglo-Saxons, but you don't accept them as English either, do you?

 

David Cameron had a Scottish Dad, so he's obviously not English.

Presumably the Queen isn't English either, what with all those Norman, Welsh Tudor and Scottish Stuart ancestors? Though Hanover is in Saxony, isn't it?

 

Have you traced your ancestry back to the Anglo-Saxons? Perhaps you should before 23rd April 2017. You might find that you're not English and should be celebrating a different patron saint. 

 

To be serious briefly, picking up on Captain's point, one thing that this country really is known for is its wide range of music. That could be the foundations of an enjoyable - and inexpensive - St. George's Day 2017 event.

A few street/park stages with local bands and musicians, the odd beer tent, face-painting stall etc.

Personally, I'd want it to be inclusive, allowing people to take part whatever their ethnicity. But maybe you could run a "Steadfast Trust Anglo-Saxon Stage", open only to people who could document their ancestry back to the Anglo-Saxon migrations of 500 AD or whatever.....ensuring that they'd not bred with any Ancient Britons, Celts, Normans or products of empire. "Sorry Your Majesty, Call-me-Dave, Wes, Demarai, you're not English, you can't take part.....OK, Kasper, you're a Jute, so I suppose you're in!"

What is ethnically Anglo-Saxon? You only need be born in England to be English. But, to be ethnically English, you would have to define it, so consequently, not all those born in England could class themselves as such. A bit like, if someone was born in England who obviously looked typically Chinese, are they English or Chinese, ethnically? What would an alien think? What would someone from Argentina think/assume?

 

Some people on here have already claimed that your suggestion for next year would be, what's the word, 'shit'.

[Nick]

I think Thracian should be able to clear all this up quite easily....

 

Over to you Tony, what is the contemporary ethnically Anglo Saxon criteria?

[Rincewind]

Someone who is not foreign. Blue eyes blonde hair

[Alf Bentley]

What is ethnically Anglo-Saxon? You only need be born in England to be English. But, to be ethnically English, you would have to define it, so consequently, not all those born in England could class themselves as such. A bit like, if someone was born in England who obviously looked typically Chinese, are they English or Chinese, ethnically? What would an alien think? What would someone from Argentina think/assume?

 

Some people on here have already claimed that your suggestion for next year would be, what's the word, 'shit'.

 

 

You're confusing me now. Previously you said "Englishness is English ethnicity" and dated English ethnicity back 1700 or so years to the Anglo-Saxons.

 

Now you're differentiating between ethnicity and nationality - which I agree with. At the last census, I put myself down as of Irish ethnicity (mainly) and British nationality (mainly).

I presume that an English-born person of Chinese ethnic origin might take the same view and see himself/herself as English but of Chinese ethnic origin. However, your previous comment suggests that you wouldn't accept him/her as English, due to the lack of Anglo-Saxon ethnic origins. Likewise, you wouldn't accept that Anglo-Chinese person (or mongrels like me) having any input into Englishness, which you see as a timeless, unchangeable concept created by the Anglo-Saxons.

 

I'm sorry if you see my idea of a load of bands/musicians playing free on public stages for St. George's Day as "shit", but each to their own. It's great that you'll be able to enjoy your Morris dancers and your maypole. I'm in favour of such diverse, pluralistic and multicultural freedom of choice - though I prefer it with a bit of cultural mingling. 

[digitalalba]

There's being English because you're born in England and have Englishness.

And there's being ethnically English and having Englishness.

Both similar, yet different.

 

You can be ethnically Irish and British nationality? Get out of town. That sounds like an oxymoron.

To be clear, anyone born in England is English. You're either ethnically English, or civicly English.

If you assume that, for example, a Chinese looking person born in England is a 'full blown English person', then that reduces the concept of someone with clear 'Anglo-Saxonage' also born in England, as being 'full blown English'. There has to be some recognised defining description of what an ethnc English person is or isn't. Like a definition of a word. Like a first impression.

 

I didn't say it was 'shit'.

I'm a culturalist, love freedom of choice and cultural mingling