What is wrong with St George's Day celebrations?

[digitalalba]

The thing is, rather like France and the U.S., we have a more secular national day on November 5th.

However, due to it's close proximity to Halloween and our, if not the world's, obsession with becoming more like America, that too is increasingly being forgotten.

You're not wrong. Isn't it a sorry state of affairs, that Halloween, the worship of death, is celebrated, primarily by children, more than everything bar xmas.

 

Who the freaking hell is Minister for fun in this world, the Grim Reaper??

[Rincewind]

Well another year another St Georges Day done and dusted..When is the next piss up celebration day?

[Vacamion]

I would hire Abbey park for the entire weekend and put on a huge stage for amature and professional folk singers/bands,

Sorry DA, but the mental image conjured up is:

[Samilktray]

I would hire Abbey park for the entire weekend and put on a huge stage for amature and professional folk singers/bands,

I would have morris dancers and for people to learn it in a fun way.

I would invite the Steadfast trust to promote English culture to all especially the young who miss out at school.

I would have a tent with a big screen for the city match on sunday and footage of English culture.

Their would be a drinks tent with English wines, beers and food on sale.

I would invite some of those companies who act out old battles, including a Robin Hood show and a man on horse duel they do at Warwick Castle.

I would invite schools to create a play based on English culture to show people. A Shakespeare play would be cool.

That sounds absolutely shit

[Nick]

That sounds absolutely shit

so true.

[RobHawk]

They had a festival? A festival? Really, a festival, an English festival celebrating Englishness, did they? Really?

 

NO they didn't, they had a banner and some food stalls, they do this every few months...

How would you know? You didn't go ya dick!

[Fox92]

Someone said it above but regional pride works a lot better than national pride in England. National pride means I have to be proud of scousers, mancs, and people from Norfolk, and I'm not. I'm just not. Football probably doesn't help. Do I want to stand shoulder to shoulder in pride with some spurs or Derby fans? Not really.

Also, lots of England is grim. You must have been to Coventry. What is there to be proud of there, exactly?

We're not the greatest people in the world. For the most part we don't even like each other. Imagine someone talking to you on the train, your first thought? It's not, "excellent, a fellow great English man to talk to". It's more likely to be, "why on earth is this ****ing freak talking to me".

We are also a bit too bashful to make a big song and dance over something as shallow as national pride. It's not even a real source of pride, is it? Being born somewhere? Hardly sets you apart from the rest. Isn't there something else in your life you can be proud of, something which you've actually had a choice in and been a part of?

 

Sorry but I cannot agree.

 

Coventry gave a lot for us all during the War and has contributed a hell of a lot to our motor industry. Liverpool and Manchester have given the World some of the greatest and most influential bands ever.

 

We are the greatest Country in the World with a wonderful history. Please just sit back and think of what we have given the World - Brunel (he should be on a bank note given how much he did for us all) , Shakespeare (arguably the most famous person ever), Isaac Newton, Alan Turing, Emmeline Pankhurst, Berners-Lee (inventing the World Wide Web and didn't even patent it)... There's plenty to be proud of.

[BlueSi13]

Love this country, it's culture, it's history, it's traditions, all what we've given the world and what we will continue to give going forwards.  I'm also well aware of the mistakes we've made.

 

As much as it would be nice to make St George's Day a bank holiday and make it much more of an event.  I personally feel we English don't NEED to make a big song and dance to remind ourselves how great we are, we know that already.  

 

Others with their furious flag-waving, bawling at their own national anthem and banging on about their nationality as if it gives them an added layer of character and identity which will make everyone else apparently like them comes across as woefully insecure, naive and smalltime to me personally.

[Bettsj2]

I would hire Abbey park for the entire weekend and put on a huge stage for amature and professional folk singers/bands,

I would have morris dancers and for people to learn it in a fun way.

I would invite the Steadfast trust to promote English culture to all especially the young who miss out at school.

I would have a tent with a big screen for the city match on sunday and footage of English culture.

Their would be a drinks tent with English wines, beers and food on sale.

I would invite some of those companies who act out old battles, including a Robin Hood show and a man on horse duel they do at Warwick Castle.

I would invite schools to create a play based on English culture to show people. A Shakespeare play would be cool.

At Diwali they have loads of fireworks and curry.

Much better.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

So if we look at the Scots / Irish, who do celebrate national days more widely, what can we learn from them;

They have a national dress or theme: Kilt / Green theme

They have a national drink / food and have played on that: Whiskey + Haggis / Guiness

They have national musical themes: Bagpipes / flute whistle, dancing

They have national games: Highland games / All-Ireland finals

Can we find reasonably attractive English versions of the above?

[The Doctor]

Bowler Hats

Fish and Chips

pass

Queueing. 

 

Sorted.

 

 

[MC Prussian]

Even more so in the USA.

I have no idea who is the patron saint of the USA.

 

Saint Nuke.

[Alf Bentley]

This thread got me thinking about what things about England I'd like to celebrate - and I'm all for celebrations.

 

Here goes with just a few:

A fascinating national/international history; Extraordinary range of quality music dating back decades; Massive range of real ales; Passionate, rowdy football fans - and football; The Mekons; Traditional pubs; Private Eye; Marmite; Downmarket seaside resorts; the NHS; Fish & chips with salt & vinegar; Binge-drinking; George Eliot;Tarka Dhal, Chicken Rogan & Garlic Naan; Democracy (imperfect but invaluable); Hitch-hiking; A fair amount of wit/zany humour; The white cliffs of Dover; An attachment to justice; Test match cricket; A healthy mistrust of authority; Public buses; Wreckless Eric; Gay equality/marriage; Stoicism; Magna Carta; Greater racial tolerance than most other countries; Eccentrics; John Peel; Hard work; the Peak District moors; Most people being quite friendly; The Clash; Tea with milk; Crashing waves on pebbly beaches; Trees; Trade unions (at their best); BBC journalism/comedy/drama; green fields; Shakespeare; Stubbornness; the smell of tarmac; the North Cornish coast; Stephen Hawking; David Bowie; The Peasants' Revolt; Dub reggae; The Chartists; Victorian red-brick houses & mills; Sex Pistols; Politeness; Cheekiness; Jerk chicken/curried goat; London (parts thereof); Rastas smoking reefer; The Pogues; the Suffragettes; English breakfast; The Queen meeting/greeting in her dowdy headscarf; Dickens; Withnail and I; Peppered mackerel; Defiance; Public footpaths; Pet dogs & cats; public libraries (even if I rarely use them); New folk (e.g. Eliza Carthy); Manchester, England's 2nd city; Music festivals; A high level of diversity & tolerance (albeit with a lot of petty whingeing). Reasons to be cheerful, part 3! I could go on all day....

 

There used to be a Leicester folk festival called The Big Session (mainly modern English folk with a bit from other countries) but it moved/ceased due to cuts in funding.

 

The council also used to spend a large sum subsidising Summer Sundae, a large music festival open to all but mainly catering to white English people. Unfortunately, Tory austerity cuts to council budgets put an end to that, as the council quite reasonably focused funds on more essential stuff. I've no idea about the funding of other events like Diwali, but the Caribbean carnival was scaled back, too, wasn't it?

 

There certainly used to be a St. George's Day event in Leicester city centre, because I took my daughter and her mates to it when they were younger: family-oriented, face-painting, Morris dancers, fancy dress, games, a bit of music. All very low-key, but I can understand that because of the sort of people who might turn up to a larger adult-oriented St. George's Day celebration - yer "Paki"-hating, "No surrender to the IRA" brigade.

 

Take a lot at this Tenpole Tudor video. A great bit of very English rowdy fun, but then look at some of the anti-Muslim/anti-immigrant comments below. Aggressive English nationalists who want to use St. George's Day to exclude others and to assert their superiority are part of the reason so little is made of St. George's Day.....and part of the reason I hesitate to call myself "English" (preferring the looser "British" or hedge-my-bets "Anglo-Irish"). We need to reclaim Englishness from the Far Right....now to do it is another question.

 

[Dodgy Bob]

Sorry but I cannot agree.

Coventry gave a lot for us all during the War and has contributed a hell of a lot to our motor industry. Liverpool and Manchester have given the World some of the greatest and most influential bands ever.

We are the greatest Country in the World with a wonderful history. Please just sit back and think of what we have given the World - Brunel (he should be on a bank note given how much he did for us all) , Shakespeare (arguably the most famous person ever), Isaac Newton, Alan Turing, Emmeline Pankhurst, Berners-Lee (inventing the World Wide Web and didn't even patent it)... There's plenty to be proud of.

Every country is home to people who have achieved great things. You only hear more about the English examples because you live in England. If you'd have grown up anywhere else you'd think the same about that country. We're not the greatest country in the world. We've had our moments, but so has everywhere else.

My question though, is more about the essence of national pride, and why I should be proud of say Tim Berners-Lee, even though I had nothing to do with what he did, and my only connection to him is that I was born within the same artifical boundary as he was, and that I shouldn't be proud of somebody else who did great things but lived in Wales or France? It seems a bit arbitrary, and a bit of a desperate way to try and differentiate and convince yourself that being English makes you 'better' than somebody else.

[Webbo]

Every country is home to people who have achieved great things. You only hear more about the English examples because you live in England. If you'd have grown up anywhere else you'd think the same about that country. We're not the greatest country in the world. We've had our moments, but so has everywhere else.

My question though, is more about the essence of national pride, and why I should be proud of say Tim Berners-Lee, even though I had nothing to do with what he did, and my only connection to him is that I was born within the same artifical boundary as he was, and that I shouldn't be proud of somebody else who did great things but lived in Wales or France? It seems a bit arbitrary, and a bit of a desperate way to try and differentiate and convince yourself that being English makes you 'better' than somebody else.

You'd struggle to find a country that has achieved as much as England/UK.

[Dodgy Bob]

You'd struggle to find a country that has achieved as much as England/UK.

Again I think living in England creates bias towards thinking England has achieved more because we hear so much more about English achievements. I'm confident that people would say the same about their own country in at least 20% of the countries in the world.

[Webbo]

Again I think living in England creates bias towards thinking England has achieved more because we hear so much more about English achievements. I'm confident that people would say the same about their own country in at least 20% of the countries in the world.

Really? The British Empire and it's influence on the world? Spain and France to a lesser extent could make similar claims, not many others could.

[Alf Bentley]

Really? The British Empire and it's influence on the world? Spain and France to a lesser extent could make similar claims, not many others could.

 

 

We'd certainly have a claim for the last 250-500 years.

 

Looking back further....Iraq/Syria (Mesopotamia/Babylon - the country, not the bloke), Egypt (Pharaohs), Greece (democracy/politics), Italy (Roman Empire), China, India, Peru/Mexico (Incas/Aztecs), USA (already).

 

Top of the list has got to be DR Congo.... Don't experts reckon that's where apes first descended from the trees to become humans. Pretty important achievement. 

[Dodgy Bob]

Greece gave us mathematics, philosophy, democracy and arguably science. China gave us civilisation itself. America would say they lead the modern world, they've certainly given us routine space flight and the prospect of one day avoiding extinction by leaving the planet. We've done a few great things too, but we're not the only country to have done so.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

We'd certainly have a claim for the last 250-500 years.

 

Looking back further....Iraq/Syria (Mesopotamia/Babylon - the country, not the bloke), Egypt (Pharaohs), Greece (democracy/politics), Italy (Roman Empire), China, India, Peru/Mexico (Incas/Aztecs), USA (already).

 

Top of the list has got to be DR Congo.... Don't experts reckon that's where apes first descended from the trees to become humans. Pretty important achievement. 

There was me thinking DR Congo's biggest achievement was giving us Um Bongo?

[Finnegan]

Pretty sure the council don't do anything for St Paddy's, people just go and get wankered.

If you need your local authority to tell you to celebrate your patron saint you obviously don't care enough.

The entire time I've lived in England, I've never known more than a small handful of people give a toss about St George's. It's not because people think it's racist,it's nothing to do with political correctness, it's just that most of you don't care. If people cared there'd be celebrations, simple as.

Go in any Irish bar and you'll hear the Wolftones and the Dubliners on repeat but Al mentions Morris dancing and everyone laughs and almost none of you will have a clue who Vin Garbutt or Martin Carthy are, nevermind that they're legends of English folk culture.

Let's be honest, people don't even really care about St Patrick, it's just Guinness got good at marketing it off the back of the USA's identity crisis.

Patrick might be the patron saint of Ireland but his feast day is as American as Halloween and as commercial as valentines.

Some of you getting very confused between culture and advertising.

[Rincewind]

The  Irish love a good booze up. Their wakes are more fun than an Englishman celebrating St Georges Day

If you can arrange something to better an Irish wake or St  Day I applaud you.

Spain has a Saint's day nearly every Month. They also enjoy celebrating. Most do it with families. They work all week then have a big get together famly meal at the weekend.

[Webbo]

I remember Terry Wogan on the radio once saying St Patrick's Day was a very religious day when he was a child in Ireland. I think the present St Paddy's day's celebrations are just clever marketing by Guinness.

[Alf Bentley]

Pretty sure the council don't do anything for St Paddy's, people just go and get wankered.

If you need your local authority to tell you to celebrate your patron saint you obviously don't care enough.

The entire time I've lived in England, I've never known more than a small handful of people give a toss about St George's. It's not because people think it's racist,it's nothing to do with political correctness, it's just that most of you don't care. If people cared there'd be celebrations, simple as.

Go in any Irish bar and you'll hear the Wolftones and the Dubliners on repeat but Al mentions Morris dancing and everyone laughs and almost none of you will have a clue who Vin Garbutt or Martin Carthy are, nevermind that they're legends of English folk culture.

Let's be honest, people don't even really care about St Patrick, it's just Guinness got good at marketing it off the back of the USA's identity crisis.

Patrick might be the patron saint of Ireland but his feast day is as American as Halloween and as commercial as valentines.

Some of you getting very confused between culture and advertising.

 

 

It's true that St. Patrick's Day has got big off the back of Guinness advertising, and its prominence in the US. But it's not just that. It has a lot to do with mass emigration and the diaspora - maintaining bonds. When I was growing up in the 60s/70s, my (Irish) Dad would always get a shamrock in the post from his Mum on St. Patrick's Day - likewise all his emigrant siblings, I presume.

He never made a big deal of St. Paddy's Day, but he was more Anglicised than a lot of Irishmen.

 

I don't think English people avoid St. George's Day because they think it's racist. But some might avoid certain types of St. George's Day events because they'd expect them to be attended by a minority of disruptive racists. I've attended family-oriented daytime St. George's Day events and would love to have attended a rowdier, boozier evening event, if it had been welcoming to people of every kind and colour. But we all know that if any such large evening event was staged, a minority of EDL/BNP-type racists would cause unpleasantness. If they were confident that such an event would be overwhelmingly friendly and welcoming to all, I'm sure the council would organise one - but they're right not to be confident of that.

 

People whingeing about Diwali & the Caribbean Carnival amuse me. They're inevitably the same people who complain about lack of integration by racial minorities....yet a big part of why the council promote such events is surely because they encourage contact and trust between different ethnic/cultural groups?! 

 

I don't know Vin Garbutt, but I did see Martin Carthy....at the Big Session Folk Festival in Leicester, before it was discontinued on financial grounds (was reasonably well-attended, though not on the scale of Summer Sundae). He was decent, but not as good as his daughter, Eliza, who is outstanding. I grew up with my parents Dubliners records and still love them (not so keen on the Clancys or Wolfe Tones). The Dubliners invented folk-punk 20 years before The Pogues.

 

I know Halloween originated here before returning via the USA, but it still annoys me how it's taking over from Guy Fawkes - a genuinely original English/British "feast day". I loved that as a kid and young man, despite being of Catholic stock.

[digitalalba]

We need to reclaim Englishness from the Far Right....now to do it is another question.

It is an irony when people say this, because it's not that it needs to be reclaimed, it's that had it not been for the 'far right', there would be no celebrations at all.

 

Since around 2005, English Nationalism has grown. You'll never 'reclaim' it, you can only join in, because they're never going to think, oh, the multiculturalists are embracing it, it's not for us now