Labour party civil war

[Rincewind]

so Watson has said he will not serve in a a cabinet if Corbyn wins because -he was soley responsible for forcing the tories to abandon their plans to cut child credits-

Hmmm interesting have you ever thought that you may be a member of the wrong party by supporting Tory policies?

Sorry but it is a strange thing for a Labour mp to say.

[Darkon84]

 

13 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

so Watson has said he will not serve in a a cabinet if Corbyn wins because -he was soley responsible for forcing the tories to abandon their plans to cut child credits-

Hmmm interesting have you ever thought that you may be a member of the wrong party by supporting Tory policies?

Sorry but it is a strange thing for a Labour mp to say.

 

Jeremy Corbyn wanted to scrap Trident.

Hmmmm interesting point of view, going against Labour policy there. Perhaps he's in the wrong party and should join the Greens?

Sorry but it's a strange thing for a Labour leader to say.

[Rincewind]

since when as not wanting to kill thousands of people been a crazy idea? Since when has not wanting to kill thousands of people been a crazy idea.Trident is a poor counter example because it is mainly supported by warmongering Blairites.

 

My point was that Smith criticized Corbyn for stopping a policy that would affect thousands of low income families. Not something I would expect a supporter of Labour ideals to do.

 

 

As I have said before I have no confidence in any politician but it doesn't stop me from at them when they come out with blatantly obvious foolish statements Corbyn included.

[Guest Bilo]

Stopped reading at warmongering Blairites.

Honestly, I swear the first spoken language for many within the Labour Party is Smear.

[Guest Bilo]

8 hours ago, Buce said:

The Brexit vote already did that.

You're on to something here.

 

This is all part of the 'post factual' era of politics we're into now, an era where what people want to think is more important than the reality. It didn't matter how much evidence you threw at the electorate to show that leaving the EU was a stupid idea, how well proven it was and how obvious it was, people wanted to strike a blow against Brussels, immigrants and the political mainstream. I remember one woman saying 'I know I'm a turkey voting for Christmas, but I'm delighted.' How on earth do you counter that? What can you do to win against that mentality when people know that what they're voting for will adversely affect them, but do it anyway out of sheer bloody mindedness and because they want to strike a blow. 

 

The move for Corbyn is exactly that, but on the left. I don't think anybody truly, genuinely believes that Corbyn will ever be PM - not even the man himself. Try telling his supporters that even trade union members no longer support him, that many Labour voters rate Theresa May more highly, that his personal ratings are between the carpet and the floor, that no party in history has had polling figures like this at this stage in a Parliament and gone on to encounter anything other than landslide defeat. Facts don't matter to them. They're meaningless. Instead, we get the abstract arguments - 'Jeremy is sincere,' 'he's a breath of fresh air,' 'he's real Labour,' 'he's anti austerity.' Great, define them. How do you measure his sincerity? Why is he more or less sincere than Owen Smith or any other Labour politician? Why is he a breath of fresh air? Why is his branch of Labour 'real' and not that of Dan Jarvis, Stella Creasy, Chuka Umunna or Owen Smith? What actually is austerity and why is Corbyn more opposed to it than any of the other 211 Labour MPs? Ask ten Corbynites those questions, and you'll get ten different abstract responses. Nothing measurable, nothing quantifiable, little in the way of facts. Yet here's the worst of it - they know he'll never be PM. They know the country will vote Tory with Corbyn as leader, they may even accept that Labour will get decimated. Of course, it'll be everyone's fault but Corbyn's. The PLP, Progress, Tony Blair, the MSM, Rupert Murdoch, the Zionist lobby, Plymouth Argyle Football Club, you name it - IT'S THEIR FAULT!

 

It's a depressing state of affairs - I've just spoken to a Corbynite who's a lovely bloke and real Labour man, but who will privately confess that the only man he can think of to take Labour to power is Chuka Umunna, and that an Umunna government would be far better for working people than a May government. It's not therefore as if the facts are being completely ignored, but swept under the rug for reasons of ideological purity and being seen to be ideologically pure. Pragmatism is out - rhetoric and platitudes are in. It must be the easiest time in history to be a politician - say what you think your audience want to hear, offer simple answers to a complex issue, make sure your answers have as little substance as possible and watch your personal ratings grow. What is Momentum but a UKIP of the left? It works along the same principles, and is targeted at a similar demographic. What a state of affairs - those of a politically moderate disposition must be either tearing their hair out if centre-left, or sitting back with their feet up if they're centre-right. UKIP tearing themselves to shreds, Labour hitting self destruct as pragmatism loses the fight with cultism, Theresa May could launch a botched invasion of Liechtenstein, reintroduce the Poll Tax and still romp home in 2020. 

 

The post factual era of politics has led its proponents to think they're winning - Brexiters dancing in the street and proclaiming a victory over Brussels, Corbynites gleefully planning purges of the Blairites. Both, ultimately, will lose. Not to those they thought were their enemy, but to the Tories who've been sitting back and watching their opponents destroy themselves. Don't come crying to us when it all goes belly up - we did try to tell you, but facts meant nothing to you.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Bilo said:

You're on to something here.

 

This is all part of the 'post factual' era of politics we're into now, an era where what people want to think is more important than the reality. It didn't matter how much evidence you threw at the electorate to show that leaving the EU was a stupid idea, how well proven it was and how obvious it was, people wanted to strike a blow against Brussels, immigrants and the political mainstream. I remember one woman saying 'I know I'm a turkey voting for Christmas, but I'm delighted.' How on earth do you counter that? What can you do to win against that mentality when people know that what they're voting for will adversely affect them, but do it anyway out of sheer bloody mindedness and because they want to strike a blow. 

 

The move for Corbyn is exactly that, but on the left. I don't think anybody truly, genuinely believes that Corbyn will ever be PM - not even the man himself. Try telling his supporters that even trade union members no longer support him, that many Labour voters rate Theresa May more highly, that his personal ratings are between the carpet and the floor, that no party in history has had polling figures like this at this stage in a Parliament and gone on to encounter anything other than landslide defeat. Facts don't matter to them. They're meaningless. Instead, we get the abstract arguments - 'Jeremy is sincere,' 'he's a breath of fresh air,' 'he's real Labour,' 'he's anti austerity.' Great, define them. How do you measure his sincerity? Why is he more or less sincere than Owen Smith or any other Labour politician? Why is he a breath of fresh air? Why is his branch of Labour 'real' and not that of Dan Jarvis, Stella Creasy, Chuka Umunna or Owen Smith? What actually is austerity and why is Corbyn more opposed to it than any of the other 211 Labour MPs? Ask ten Corbynites those questions, and you'll get ten different abstract responses. Nothing measurable, nothing quantifiable, little in the way of facts. Yet here's the worst of it - they know he'll never be PM. They know the country will vote Tory with Corbyn as leader, they may even accept that Labour will get decimated. Of course, it'll be everyone's fault but Corbyn's. The PLP, Progress, Tony Blair, the MSM, Rupert Murdoch, the Zionist lobby, Plymouth Argyle Football Club, you name it - IT'S THEIR FAULT!

 

It's a depressing state of affairs - I've just spoken to a Corbynite who's a lovely bloke and real Labour man, but who will privately confess that the only man he can think of to take Labour to power is Chuka Umunna, and that an Umunna government would be far better for working people than a May government. It's not therefore as if the facts are being completely ignored, but swept under the rug for reasons of ideological purity and being seen to be ideologically pure. Pragmatism is out - rhetoric and platitudes are in. It must be the easiest time in history to be a politician - say what you think your audience want to hear, offer simple answers to a complex issue, make sure your answers have as little substance as possible and watch your personal ratings grow. What is Momentum but a UKIP of the left? It works along the same principles, and is targeted at a similar demographic. What a state of affairs - those of a politically moderate disposition must be either tearing their hair out if centre-left, or sitting back with their feet up if they're centre-right. UKIP tearing themselves to shreds, Labour hitting self destruct as pragmatism loses the fight with cultism, Theresa May could launch a botched invasion of Liechtenstein, reintroduce the Poll Tax and still romp home in 2020. 

 

The post factual era of politics has led its proponents to think they're winning - Brexiters dancing in the street and proclaiming a victory over Brussels, Corbynites gleefully planning purges of the Blairites. Both, ultimately, will lose. Not to those they thought were their enemy, but to the Tories who've been sitting back and watching their opponents destroy themselves. Don't come crying to us when it all goes belly up - we did try to tell you, but facts meant nothing to you.

 

I'd have given that +5 if rules allowed, Bilo.

 

I think there's a strong element of "self-image" and/or mood enhancement in all this.

 

In some people, this manifests as narcissism. People feeling good about themselves because they're part of an "elite" who support every Corbynist moral absolute and will never consider any compromise - and it boosts their egos.

Some also enjoy winning the approval of others by making all the right-on, unrealistic demands expected of a Corbynista - so they can bask in the warm glow of approval of the "right sort of people".

Maybe there are also a lot of very frustrated, very miserable people who just want to give themselves a nice warm boost by expressing ill-thought-through idealistic views - and not caring whether they could ever be put in practice. Some of the dimmer Corbynista elements probably never even consider whether their ideas could ever work or could ever win enough support to be implemented. But brighter elements probably KNOW that their ideas will never win support and simply don't care....because expressing such demands makes them feel better about themselves or improves their mood.

 

Meanwhile the real world continues to exist - a real world set to go through seriously tough times.....with the Right in control.

 

It all feels very desperate or decadent to me - like the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, or people consciously opting en masse for heroin addiction or something. 

[leicsmac]

Bilo and Alf have it pretty much spot on.

 

It's a bit perverse that some Labour supporters seem to have a lack of memory regarding how much damage was done to areas of the country that primarily vote Labour the last time their party fell apart like this and the Conservatives were given a long stint in power as a result.

[leicsmac]

Edit, double post.

[Sharpe's Fox]

The post-factual era of politics is of the politicians own making. The banking crisis, the Iraq War, expenses scandals, the rise and fall of the Lib Dems and the general dumbing down of any debate has generated a mistrust of anyone spouting supposed evidence based fact to leave the only trusted politicians being idealistic and thoroughly sincere in their opinions.

 

This is a world-wide phenomenon that isn't limited to just one end of British politics because people have been peddled the same rubbish by the same centrist governments for decades. Vote for us and you and your children will be better off, so why can't a buy a house until I'm 35 when my father could when he was 21? Education is the most important thing in our society, so why are you charging me for the privilege? We will create more jobs, so why can't my child or grandchild get a job you've created in his/her chosen field it must be immigrants taking them.

 

Governments have been telling us for years how they will improve our lives but they struggle to answer questions people usually ask them, lo and behold someone comes along with an answer they can understand and they get behind that person. It might be an illogical and completely wrong answer and it probably is but it's more than anything else anyone has ever offered them.

[Guest]

 Owen telling Corbs that he has no chance of winning a GE.

 

 

Owen of course is odds on to win a GE.

[The Railway Man]

On 8/12/2016 at 13:27, Buce said:

The Brexit vote already did that.

Bit childish, I'd imagine people voted for all sorts of reasons to leave the EU, I do't think it makes them dumb.

But that attitude probably shows exactly why parties like Labour have support deserting them, that "we're more educated than you and you must be stupid not to vote for us" Diane Abbott style politics that has infected the left these days.

[The Railway Man]

On 8/12/2016 at 19:06, Rincewind said:

since when as not wanting to kill thousands of people been a crazy idea? Since when has not wanting to kill thousands of people been a crazy idea.Trident is a poor counter example because it is mainly supported by warmongering Blairites.

 

My point was that Smith criticized Corbyn for stopping a policy that would affect thousands of low income families. Not something I would expect a supporter of Labour ideals to do.

 

 

As I have said before I have no confidence in any politician but it doesn't stop me from at them when they come out with blatantly obvious foolish statements Corbyn included.

It really must be hard to reach this level of political ignorance.

[The Railway Man]

On 8/12/2016 at 22:01, Bilo said:

The post factual era of politics has led its proponents to think they're winning - Brexiters dancing in the street and proclaiming a victory over Brussels, Corbynites gleefully planning purges of the Blairites. Both, ultimately, will lose. Not to those they thought were their enemy, but to the Tories who've been sitting back and watching their opponents destroy themselves. Don't come crying to us when it all goes belly up - we did try to tell you, but facts meant nothing to you.

A good post in all, people are starting to vote more with their hearts than heads but I think Sharpe Fox has it spot on when he says the politicians are to blame for all this, they have make promise after promise regarding wages, europe, immigration etc that simply haven't been kep so why would they trust them when they throw more "facts" at them, Gove wasn't wrong when he said people have had enough of experts, they have.

 

I do take exception to this bit though, Brexit certainly could be a huge success if done right, the Eurozone is going to face incredible difficulties over the next few years and it's hard to see it surviving monetary unification long term. If you are a 40 year old on a council estate that has been "left behind" why would you vote to stay in the EU just so some suburban dwelling Londoner can get even richer? I wouldn't and I certainly wouldnt call them stupid for doing so. The same goes for the Labour party, they held power for 13 years and these areas were left behind as much as they were under the Tories, no wonder a lot are going to UKIP, even more so when Labour continue to support mass immigration that their own voting base completely rejects.

 

The real lesson in all of this is don't take your voters for granted, don't insult them and don't think you own their tick in the box come election day. They won't though, because people involved in politics are incapable of doing that.

[Guest MattP]

Ken, given that you think someone with years of membership and activism in Labour is a war mongering Blarite Tory, what is your view of swing voters?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Ken, given that you think someone with years of membership and activism in Labour is a war mongering Blarite Tory, what is your view of swing voters?

 

I don't think their sexual preferences matter that much but I'd have thought they'd be probably liberal.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/15/jeremy-corbyn-wins-backing-84-per-cent-local-labour-parties

 

Looking like a comfortable win for comrade Corbyn, incredible numbers given he only won 39% of CLP's in 2015 - Hard to get into the heads of the Labour membership really that his performance over the last 12 months has managed to improve his support but there you go.

 

Unsurprisingly the Labour Jewish movement backed Owen Smith by a huge margin - 92%.

[Guest Bilo]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/15/jeremy-corbyn-wins-backing-84-per-cent-local-labour-parties

 

Looking like a comfortable win for comrade Corbyn, incredible numbers given he only won 39% of CLP's in 2015 - Hard to get into the heads of the Labour membership really that his performance over the last 12 months has managed to improve his support but there you go.

 

Unsurprisingly the Labour Jewish movement backed Owen Smith by a huge margin - 92%.

 

[The Railway Man]

You got to hand it to him though, how many people can pull this many people out at 2pm on a Tuesday?

 

I know it says everything about those who support him (unemployed, benefits brigade) but the loyalty is still impressive.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, Bilo said:

 

 

 

He's still completely on course to win a 2020. The 82% of local parties supporting him proves Yougov are wrong!

[Dr The Singh]

On 15/08/2016 at 10:19, MattP said:

Ken, given that you think someone with years of membership and activism in Labour is a war mongering Blarite Tory, what is your view of swing voters?

What's swinging got to do labour membership s?

[Guest MattP]

28 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

What's swinging got to do labour membership s?

Nothing, if it did membership would probably top a million.

 

I've just read a stat on Facebook but have no idea if it's true, apparantly Corbyn has attended 15 rallies in the last 3 weeks, 5 more than he managed the during the whole EU referendum campaign.

[Rincewind]

A bit of a generalisation that railwayman.  Yes he is attracting crowds like that all over the country. The other week Owen Smith attracted a few hundred on a sunny day in Liverpool with free ice cream. The following day it was raining and there were a few thousand to see Corbyn.No ice-cream.  Whether he is electable is not really the point, as you said in an earlier post which I thought was good btw, a lot of politicians have not been fulfilling promises. Corbyn offers something different. He may not attract those that are comfortably off but for many of thousands in low paid part time ZHC or unemployed he is a breath of fresh air. I would not say that I trust him more more, just that I trust all the others less. After all he is a politician.

Someone I know went Derby yesterday to see Corbyn and met him at the station. He said he had a good chat with him and said he came across as a nice decent bloke. Even gave him a lift to the venue in a taxi. Of course he would be a little biased as he is already a supporter. Like the person who may meet his local MP in a local golf club and have a friendly chat over a glass of wine they are putting on a show for the converted.

[Guest MattP]

Well that debate was interesting, I'll be quite honest after hearing that I'd probably cast my vote for Corbyn over Smith. Owen wants a second referendum on the EU and even said "we need to get ISIS round the table" - wtf (imagine if Corbyn had said that, would be headline news tomorrow)

 

Corbyn gets extra points from me as well on the "how in touch are you" quiz for not knowing who Ant and Dec were when shown a picture. Owen Smith also got the Wales v Belgium score wrong although slightly redeemed himself for saying it was because he was pissed.

 

Jezza's most difficult moments were trying to answer away why only 4% of Jewish members back him and one Smith supporter now saying she would be more terrified of going to the Labour conference in September than the Tory one.

[The Railway Man]

You know your party is in some serious trouble when you have a leadership contest and Jeremy Corbyn is considered the candidate who is tough on terrorism.

 

What does Smith think ISIS will say? "Yeah good deal, we'll reduce beheadings by 30% and only throw gays off buildings for two weeks a month"?

[The Railway Man]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Corbyn gets extra points from me as well on the "how in touch are you" quiz for not knowing who Ant and Dec were when shown a picture. Owen Smith also got the Wales v Belgium score wrong although slightly redeemed himself for saying it was because he was pissed.

 

Reminds me of the bit in "The Thick of It" when they force the MP to sit there and watch The Bill and Eastenders.