IrememberBobHazell Posted 17 August 2016 Posted 17 August 2016 Lest we forget Jeremy Corbyn was parading Gerry Adams around the Palace of Westminster around the time of the Brighton Bombings. I am really not sure how you negotiate with ISIS? I mean what are you prepared to give them in return? Are you willing to legitimize them by even being seen to be publically conversing with them? At least British Governments at the grace to communicate with the IRA through back door private means. ISIS don't play by the same rules as the rest of the world. Theirs is a clearly undemocratic path with norms and aims that the vast majority would have no part of. Their methods are seemingly well beyond the pale too. Some would have you believe that Mr Corbyn was a visionary that used dialogue to bring the Northern Ireland 'troubles' to its end, I disagree. The IRA was beaten militarily. Mr Corbyn was a plonker then, and by talking about talking to ISIS Mr Smith has joined him. Rant over and goodnight!
leicsmac Posted 17 August 2016 Posted 17 August 2016 If you want to negotiate with an enemy you are probably best off hammering them until they're willing to talk first. Thing is though, the difference between ISIS and the IRA (who we began back channel talking to back in the 70's) are that the latter had clear political goals that while disagreeable could at least be talked about, whereas the former, as well as being fanatics who wholeheartedly believe the next world will be better if they kill in this one, have very few political ambitions and those they do have are totally unacceptable to any sane human being. How do you negotiate any kind of peace with people like that?
Guest MattP Posted 17 August 2016 Posted 17 August 2016 This is something quite astounding and I've never seen before, Labour supporters are now more satisfied with the leader of the Conservatives than their own party. http://uk.businessinsider.com/ipsos-mori-poll-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-2016-8
Rincewind Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 http://www.thecanary.co/2016/08/17/less-minute-corbyn-proves-knows-fix-mental-health-crisis-video/
Darkon84 Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 37 minutes ago, Rincewind said: http://www.thecanary.co/2016/08/17/less-minute-corbyn-proves-knows-fix-mental-health-crisis-video/ Another ridiculous, over the top article from The Canary. Before I give my views on it. Perhaps you'd like to give your thoughts on the article and video instead of just leaving a link there.
Buce Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 45 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: Another ridiculous, over the top article from The Canary.Before I give my views on it. Perhaps you'd like to give your thoughts on the article and video instead of just leaving a link there. Or maybe you could just spare us; your views are every bit as predictable as Rince's.
Darkon84 Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 Just now, Buce said: Or maybe you could just spare us; your views are every bit as predictable as Rince's. Haha oh come on Buce, they aren't THAT bad surely? For what it's worth I was actually going to say that what both of them say is correct. JC is right (which might shock you, given your comment), the attitude towards mental health does need to change, and that with every single apparent terrorist attack lately being attributed to people with such problems doesn't help the situation. It is possible to overcome problems or cope with them well enough to have a perfectly normal life and no-one would be any wiser, which I know from personal experience. The services do also need further investment in order to provide more available services. My problem is more the article rather than what was said. JC didn't 'prove' anything, and at least Smith gave figures rather than just words. Yes I know I shouldn't get annoyed by the way the article is written, as I know the bias of the source. I guess I was just having one of those mornings where a few little things ticked the annoyance box
Buce Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 2 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: Haha oh come on Buce, they aren't THAT bad surely? For what it's worth I was actually going to say that what both of them say is correct. JC is right (which might shock you, given your comment), the attitude towards mental health does need to change, and that with every single apparent terrorist attack lately being attributed to people with such problems doesn't help the situation. It is possible to overcome problems or cope with them well enough to have a perfectly normal life and no-one would be any wiser, which I know from personal experience. The services do also need further investment in order to provide more available services. My problem is more the article rather than what was said. JC didn't 'prove' anything, and at least Smith gave figures rather than just words. Yes I know I shouldn't get annoyed by the way the article is written, as I know the bias of the source.I guess I was just having one of those mornings where a few little things ticked the annoyance box Me too. Apologies.
Darkon84 Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 Just now, Buce said: Me too. Apologies. Just saw your post in your other topic. No apology necessary whatsoever.
Guest MattP Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 Tories starting to hit levels of support not seen since Thatcher days.
Alf Bentley Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 3 hours ago, Darkon84 said: Haha oh come on Buce, they aren't THAT bad surely? For what it's worth I was actually going to say that what both of them say is correct. JC is right (which might shock you, given your comment), the attitude towards mental health does need to change, and that with every single apparent terrorist attack lately being attributed to people with such problems doesn't help the situation. It is possible to overcome problems or cope with them well enough to have a perfectly normal life and no-one would be any wiser, which I know from personal experience. The services do also need further investment in order to provide more available services. My problem is more the article rather than what was said. JC didn't 'prove' anything, and at least Smith gave figures rather than just words. Yes I know I shouldn't get annoyed by the way the article is written, as I know the bias of the source. I guess I was just having one of those mornings where a few little things ticked the annoyance box Both Corbyn and Smith made some good points in that video, but both were offering partial solutions. Corbyn was right to raise the issue of tackling the stigma about mental health - a massive problem for sufferers - although he didn't explain how he'd do that. His point about quick access to talking therapies is an excellent one, but again is only a partial answer. If someone is suffering psychotic delusions thinking people are trying to kill them, then talking therapies are sod all use in the short-term. They need rapid emergency care, probably as in-patients in a hospital mental health unit....and beds in such units are desperately hard to get now. Even some years ago, when I supported contacts who had such problems, someone had to be imminently likely to harm themselves or others (with a high threshold) before they'd get admitted. There's also the whole issue of post-discharge care: talking therapies may be part of this, but practical support (help getting out, getting work, getting benefits) is vital, too, and is often hard to get. Corbyn's comment about austerity was fair enough - stress and poverty cause mental illness...but they're not the only cause. Mental health problems were increasing when the economy was doing better and the public services had more cash. We need to be thinking about the whole way we live socially, with people working too many hours to pay for a home or other property, facing insecurity & stress, getting socially isolated with fragmented families and lack of neighbourhood contact etc. Smith was also absolutely right to say that more investment is needed - and to come up with some proper figures. Mental health issues have been increasing for a long time and will presumably continue to increase unless there are major changes in the way we live as a society....even if he didn't mention the sort of relevant specifics that Corbyn did. He was also absolutely right to say that we have to say how we're going to fund an increase in spending for healthcare in general and mental health, in particular. Corbyn regularly says how we need this and that major, expensive change to improve our society. He was promising to get rid of tuition fees and reinstate student grants (even possibly repaying student debt) the other day, wasn't he? He makes unfunded promise after unfunded promise, which is irresponsible politics, and could be disastrous if he ever got into power and tried to make good on all these promises without a proper economic plan (though I don't reckon he'll never win a general election). Some or many such promises might be viable, but he needs to explain how he'd fund them. As for "The Canary", it's the left-wing equivalent of the Daily Express - biased, poor-quality journalism for unthinking people. The video was worth posting, but not the journalism surrounding it....and not good to post links without comment, Ken. What if everyone did that? What a shit place the forum would be then. Take a seat on the naughty step, mate!
Darkon84 Posted 18 August 2016 Posted 18 August 2016 1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said: Both Corbyn and Smith made some good points in that video, but both were offering partial solutions....... etc etc stuff about stuff and general decent replying.... Unfortunately they were both being hurried along to wrap up their points, which is a bit of a shame as I'd have liked to have heard both of them more on that particular subject and how they would flesh out their points, especially as it's something they both seem to agree on. The whole subject matter is so deep with so many different problems people encounter and of varying levels, it is almost impossible to get everything 100% correct, whether that's talking therapies, medication for delusion, as an in patient within an institution etc. One thing is for certain though, with the growing number of cases, (though I'm convinced the statistics are sliiiiiiiightly skewed by people using mental health as a way to get a few weeks off work over the last couple of years), something needs to be done. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer either, and I wouldn't know where to begin....well actually, for a start, there should (somehow) be an increase in the number and availability of NHS counsellors so people don't need to wait an eternity to see someone, as the chap raised in his question. There are more than enough private therapists or counsellors around so it should be relatively easy to get an appointment should it be needed, but it's the money which can cause a problem for a lot of people who suffer. From speaking to various people who are employed within the mental health sector (the seriously serious stuff), there isn't enough help within the workplace either, with the department often opting for the cheap agency staff, most of whom are, shall we say, fresh in the country and rushed through basic training, rather than better trained individuals with more complete training. Only the other day I was informed of recent occurrence where a female member of staff on the ward who is in charge and vastly experienced was completely ignored over and over by her agency Ethiopian colleagues simply because she was a woman. Now I'm not trying to make this in to a race or immigration argument, but to me, when dealing with a ward of violent, mentally unstable people, I'd like to think that the powers that be would take more care in their vetting process to staff the ward! Sorry, there was a point at the end, but I went way off course there. Still an interesting point though, I feel. Back on track and yes, you're right about the fact that not only people growing up in poverty can suffer from mental health problems. The pressure of being overworked, the price of housing/rent/mortgages is ridiculous, and it could even be spread to the price of petrol if one needs to travel for work. All these financial commitments, as well as relationships or family life, can all add up very easily. A man in a suit powerwalking to his coffee meeting might look in control of his life, but who knows the pressure underneath. It was a giant shock to even my closest friends when I had problems a couple of years back. No one would have guessed it. I was impressed by Smith's ability to actually come up with a figure and a percentage, though, of course, these would need to be scrutinised further, but at least it was a good starting point, rather than just happy thoughts and saying the right words which seems to be the way things are at the top of Labour at the moment. As great as it would be for students to get grants for Uni and for student debts to be paid off (yes please), I dread to think what the actual breakdown and economics of such a plan would look like. Wasn't there talk that he would just magic up or borrow another £500bn to fund all this? Yes, that's nice, but what next...how does that get repaid? I think we all know the answer to that and it won't be one that people like. I really should know better than to bite at The Canary, I know exactly what angle it's always going to go for. As I mentioned to Buce, I was just having one of those mornings and before I knew it, the hook was in my mouth Posting links without any additional content is one of my pet peeves for some reason and I'm not sure why. I'm frantically racking my brain now, hoping I've not done it myself now!
foxy boxing Posted 19 August 2016 Posted 19 August 2016 so how exactly would negotiating with people who want to kill and behead you go exactly? excuse me Mr terrorist may i have a word with you? absolute nonsense and shows how out of touch the Labour party is with ordinary people
leicsmac Posted 19 August 2016 Posted 19 August 2016 16 minutes ago, foxy boxing said: so how exactly would negotiating with people who want to kill and behead you go exactly? excuse me Mr terrorist may i have a word with you? absolute nonsense and shows how out of touch the Labour party is with ordinary people Yeah, it's difficult as all their negotiating points would be unacceptable to any reasonable human being. But, once they're softened up sooner or later you've got to sit down, talk, and deal with the base social/psychological problem that causes people to want to do shit like this or you're just going to end up playing the worlds bloodiest and worst Whack-a-Mole game for eternity. I'm not sure the idea of a Forever War with these nutjobs is really all that fun. Edit: Of course, if the US put their mind to it and lacked any thought about the moral consequences they could probably do enough to 'win' such a war against fundamentalism of that type, but not without committing something pretty close to genocide.
IrememberBobHazell Posted 19 August 2016 Posted 19 August 2016 Anyone want to comment on Mr Corbyn not showing faith in NATO and its aims? At first I was laughing at him, I'm not laughing anymore. The guy is dangerous, doubly so with the cult of personality behind him. I have consoled myself with the thought that someone so left field can't be elected but the British public took a risky option in leaving the EU, they wouldn't roll the dice again , would they? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the two things are equal but its the 'sod it' mindset that concerns me.
leicsmac Posted 19 August 2016 Posted 19 August 2016 15 minutes ago, IrememberBobHazell said: Anyone want to comment on Mr Corbyn not showing faith in NATO and its aims? At first I was laughing at him, I'm not laughing anymore. The guy is dangerous, doubly so with the cult of personality behind him. I have consoled myself with the thought that someone so left field can't be elected but the British public took a risky option in leaving the EU, they wouldn't roll the dice again , would they? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the two things are equal but its the 'sod it' mindset that concerns me. I doubt it. Though British polling isn't exactly as reliable as the US brand, I think it's pretty clear that the support across the board isn't there. The UK population (English in particular) tend towards conservatism in their outlook, as a majority. Who was the last person in anywhere near the same political area as Corbyn who got elected - Callaghan?
Guest MattP Posted 19 August 2016 Posted 19 August 2016 58 minutes ago, IrememberBobHazell said: Anyone want to comment on Mr Corbyn not showing faith in NATO and its aims? At first I was laughing at him, I'm not laughing anymore. The guy is dangerous, doubly so with the cult of personality behind him. I have consoled myself with the thought that someone so left field can't be elected but the British public took a risky option in leaving the EU, they wouldn't roll the dice again , would they? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the two things are equal but its the 'sod it' mindset that concerns me. I wouldn't worry, the two things the British people care about are the economy and security and Corbyn would sacrifice both for his ideals, we won't vote for that. I do have concerns for 25-30 years time though if we continue to produce masses of young people who seem to base their political opinion on internet memes, then again you should never have sympathy for the people in democracy, they get the governments they deserve.
Guest MattP Posted 19 August 2016 Posted 19 August 2016 23 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: Smith was also absolutely right to say that more investment is needed - and to come up with some proper figures. Mental health issues have been increasing for a long time and will presumably continue to increase unless there are major changes in the way we live as a society....even if he didn't mention the sort of relevant specifics that Corbyn did. He was also absolutely right to say that we have to say how we're going to fund an increase in spending for healthcare in general and mental health, in particular. Corbyn regularly says how we need this and that major, expensive change to improve our society. He was promising to get rid of tuition fees and reinstate student grants (even possibly repaying student debt) the other day, wasn't he? He makes unfunded promise after unfunded promise, which is irresponsible politics, and could be disastrous if he ever got into power and tried to make good on all these promises without a proper economic plan (though I don't reckon he'll never win a general election). Some or many such promises might be viable, but he needs to explain how he'd fund them. He was asked a question by a reporter the other day and how much rail renationalisation would cost in terms of compensation to shareholders and he ran away from the camera. The weird about this is so his supporters don't actually care, you try and bring up any debate about economics and all you get back is things like "screw the deficit" or typical lines about business trillionaires or bankers, I've never seen such a care free attitude to politics and a belief there is a money trree growing in the back of number 10. On his policy so far I think he's probably promised about a trillion in public spending, soon he's going to be questioned about where this is going to come from, he'll try and avoid it all he can but if he goes into as General Election he won't be able to.
foxy boxing Posted 22 August 2016 Posted 22 August 2016 everyday it is the same thing that we hear "we need to get rid of corbyn" but is there anyone at the moment that will get labour where they need to be? they need to have time to think what they really want to do, what policies they want to have and who can deliver them instead of constant bickering and infighting which is getting them absolutely nowhere, britain needs a strong opposition that can keep the government in check and hold them to account
Guest MattP Posted 23 August 2016 Posted 23 August 2016 Oh dear I can't wait for the Corbynista's defence of this one. https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005 Quote Seats were available on the train in which Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn was filmed sitting on the floor, Virgin Trains has found. Film footage released to the media showed Mr Corbyn sitting on the floor of a three-hour Virgin Trains service from London to Newcastle claiming it was “ram-packed”. CCTV footage taken from the train on August 11 shows Mr Corbyn and his team walked past empty, unreserved seats in coach H before walking through the rest of the train to the far end, where his team sat on the floor and started filming. The same footage then shows Mr Corbyn returning to coach H and taking a seat there, with the help of the onboard crew, around 45 minutes into the journey and over two hours before the train reached Newcastle. Mr Corbyn’s team carried out their filming around 30 minutes into the journey. There were also additional empty seats on the train (the 11am departure from King’s Cross) which appear from CCTV to have been reserved but not taken, so they were also available for other passengers to sit on. On his film, whilst sitting on the floor, Mr Corbyn said: “This is a problem that many passengers face every day on the trains, commuters and long distance travellers. Today this train is completely ram-packed. The staff on the train are absolutely brilliant, working really hard to help everybody. The reality is there’s not enough trains, we need more of them.” A Virgin Trains spokesperson said: “Our people deliver first-rate customer service day after day and we’d like to thank Jeremy Corbyn for highlighting this with the media. He’s also right to point out the need to introduce more trains on our route – that’s why we’re introducing a brand new fleet of 65 Azuma trains from 2018, which will increase seating capacity out of King’s Cross by 28% at peak times. “But we have to take issue with the idea that Mr Corbyn wasn’t able to be seated on the service, as this clearly wasn’t the case. We’d encourage Jeremy to book ahead next time he travels with us, both to reserve a seat and to ensure he gets our lowest fares, and we look forward to welcoming him onboard again. The spokesperson added: “We know that some of our services on our east and west coast franchises are extremely popular, and it can be hard to find a seat. This usually happens in particular circumstances, for example when there’s a big sporting event, or on the first off-peak train out of London. Unfortunately we can’t do anything about cup finals or fares regulation, which could spread demand much more effectively if it was less of a blunt instrument. We have discussed regulation with the Government at various points over the last two decades and we’d be delighted to work with Ministers if they were interested in reviewing the fares structure for long distance services, with the aim of reducing the overcrowding that can sometimes occur. “We can, however, rely on our fantastic on-board teams to help customers whenever possible and we’re delighted they could help Jeremy in this case. We can also invest in our services - for example, we’ve converted a first class carriage to standard on our 21 nine carriage trains on west coast, providing an extra 5500 standard class seats each day.” Notes to editors: Images from the CCTV footage can be downloaded from the "images" section of this website. The images show: CCTV footage filmed at 11.07am, approximately 7 min after departure from King’s Cross on August 11. It shows Jeremy Corbyn walking past several empty, unreserved seats in Coach H CCTV footage which shows Mr Corbyn walking past reserved but empty seats at 11.08am in Coach F CCTV footage shows two images of Mr Corbyn returning to Coach H and sitting down at 11.43am, shortly after being filmed while sat on the floor and more than 2hrs before his final destination, Newcastle
Darkon84 Posted 23 August 2016 Posted 23 August 2016 30 minutes ago, MattP said: Oh dear I can't wait for the Corbynista's defence of this one. https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005 Well played Virgin, well played. I think I've got it though, it's a set up. The line from Kings Cross to Newcastle goes up the East coast, which is on the RIGHT side of the country, so it's a right wing line, and therefore Virgin are just right wing blairites out to get JC! Wouldn't surprise me if Richard Branson was just Rupert Murdoch in a mask and wig, like a shit Scooby Doo villain.
MPH Posted 23 August 2016 Posted 23 August 2016 27 minutes ago, MattP said: Oh dear I can't wait for the Corbynista's defence of this one. https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005 So he's a publicity stunt merchant? And i thought he was different from the rest!!!
Guest MattP Posted 23 August 2016 Posted 23 August 2016 1 hour ago, MPH said: So he's a publicity stunt merchant? And i thought he was different from the rest!!! It's straight talking honest politics, just without any straight talking or honesty.
Strokes Posted 23 August 2016 Posted 23 August 2016 21 minutes ago, MattP said: It's straight talking honest politics, just without any straight talking or honesty. Or politics.
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