leicsmac Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 7 minutes ago, Webbo said: I wonder if the present situation doesn't suit China, being the only country with any influence over a bunch of maniacs means the other countries in the neighbourhood need to keep them sweet, and it's a distraction from China's expansion in the South China Sea. That was my exact point earlier on and one I've mentioned on the NK situation before: The Chinese get a buffer state from US influence and a distraction from what else they do, the US get a nice boogeyman to distract from what else they do, the South Koreans get to have a similar boogeyman (if needed) and don't have to think about the economic and social basket case reunification would be, and the NK leadership gets to keep their expensive imported cars, fine foods and sending their kids to Oxford and Harvard to major in Western Hypocrisy. It does suit everyone apart from the poor folks in the gulags or trying to scratch a living without getting memory-holed, and sadly they don't have much of a voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 1 hour ago, Webbo said: America is not going to invade NK. I'd guess we're talking about sending a couple of missiles to military sites. Not that I think that's what's going to happen. China needs to have a word in some general's ear and promise him support and this could be over very quickly. I think you're underestimating the NK leadership and its military capabilities; a surgical strike on its nuclear facilities will almost certainly see a response aimed at the 50,000(?) American troops stationed in SK, who are well within conventional missile range. And Seoul is only something like 30 miles from the border. An American strike has the potential to open a very nasty can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 11 minutes ago, Buce said: I think you're underestimating the NK leadership and its military capabilities; a surgical strike on its nuclear facilities will almost certainly see a response aimed at the 50,000(?) American troops stationed in SK, who are well within conventional missile range. And Seoul is only something like 30 miles from the border. An American strike has the potential to open a very nasty can of worms. I don't doubt that for a minute but it's NK that's threatening to nuke the US not the other way around. It's them that points it's missile tests at Japan. One day they might make good on their threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 6 minutes ago, Buce said: I think you're underestimating the NK leadership and its military capabilities; a surgical strike on its nuclear facilities will almost certainly see a response aimed at the 50,000(?) American troops stationed in SK, who are well within conventional missile range. And Seoul is only something like 30 miles from the border. An American strike has the potential to open a very nasty can of worms. I have no doubt there could be retaliation - conventional or otherwise, people forget that nuclear isn't the only WMD North Korea possess - were the US to target an enrichment facility, and Seoul is well within range of the artillery barrage that the NK's can offer. But the best of what I can tell from talking to folks there is that Seoul would be abandoned anyway (it actually has much less strategic value than you might think), the American troops stationed there would largely be support for the main SK army anyway (and they are all over the country), and it would be a matter of sucking up the initial strike before launching an ultimately successful combined counteroffensive once any necessary US reinforcements arrived. Of course, it would make both Iraq and Afghanistan look like a fight in a kids playpen and there are(roughly) 5,000 British nationals out there as we speak, but it would end only one way, and everyone knows it. Which is why all sides won't be inclined to do too much to rock the boat beyond spouting blithering rhetoric as both Trump and the KCNA like to do. Honestly, I brought up the initial topic purely because of how absurd the rhetoric was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 Just now, Webbo said: I don't doubt that for a minute but it's NK that's threatening to nuke the US not the other way around. It's them that points it's missile tests at Japan. One day they might make good on their threats. 1 They won't, unless they're flat out - as a whole leadership, not just one person - suicidal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jattdogg Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 Trump is just putting a distraction out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 4 minutes ago, leicsmac said: They won't, unless they're flat out - as a whole leadership, not just one person - suicidal. I don't think there's any doubt that NK's leadership is batshit crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: I don't doubt that for a minute but it's NK that's threatening to nuke the US not the other way around. It's them that points it's missile tests at Japan. One day they might make good on their threats. I don't disagree with any of this, merely your assertion that it would be over very quickly. I also think that the level of brainwashing the NK people are subjected to would see the NK army put up a bigger fight than has happened in previous invasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 1 minute ago, Buce said: I don't disagree with any of this, merely your assertion that it would be over very quickly. I also think that the level of brainwashing the NK people are subjected to would see the NK army put up a bigger fight than has happened in previous invasions. When I said it could be over quickly I meant that China could sponsor a coup, surely the best option. Minimum deaths and China keeps it's buffer zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 9 minutes ago, Webbo said: I don't think there's any doubt that NK's leadership is batshit crazy. Yeah, no doubt - but there's a world of difference between crazy and stupid. I have no doubt that the leadership there is driven by self-preservation above all else - most cults of personality like that are - and so they're not going to risk losing what they have for the sake of a war they know they'll lose. If they had those weapons and were spouting stuff about the next life being better, thus making the assertion that this one doesn't matter...then I'd be a little more afraid. 8 minutes ago, Buce said: I don't disagree with any of this, merely your assertion that it would be over very quickly. I also think that the level of brainwashing the NK people are subjected to would see the NK army put up a bigger fight than has happened in previous invasions. Sorry Buce but I'm disagreeing on this one. I think there would be a fight, but I don't really see the indoctrination holding for long once the bodies start piling up and chains of command begin to collapse. I think it would be a brutal thing, but it would be over reasonably quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Yeah, no doubt - but there's a world of difference between crazy and stupid. I have no doubt that the leadership there is driven by self-preservation above all else - most cults of personality like that are - and so they're not going to risk losing what they have for the sake of a war they know they'll lose. If they had those weapons and were spouting stuff about the next life being better, thus making the assertion that this one doesn't matter...then I'd be a little more afraid. Sorry Buce but I'm disagreeing on this one. I think there would be a fight, but I don't really see the indoctrination holding for long once the bodies start piling up and chains of command begin to collapse. I think it would be a brutal thing, but it would be over reasonably quickly. I'll not labour the point, Mac - having lived there, I'm sure your view is more informed than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 2 minutes ago, Buce said: I'll not labour the point, Mac - having lived there, I'm sure your view is more informed than mine. No worries. I don't mean to downplay it at all - it would be awful and a lot of people (perhaps including some I know personally) would die, there would be vast damage and the Foreign Office would have their hands full trying to get all the UK folks out, many of which have settled lives there. But one thing I think it wouldn't be is protracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 32 minutes ago, Buce said: I'll not labour the point, Mac - having lived there, I'm sure your view is more informed than mine. You lived in North Korea? Wow. I find it hard to believe the senior guys who see their counterparts and their families tortured and killed for failure would fight for more than about 5 minutes once their leader was dead, and the fish rots from the head. It wouldn't last long. Unless China got involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: You lived in North Korea? Wow. I find it hard to believe the senior guys who see their counterparts and their families tortured and killed for failure would fight for more than about 5 minutes once their leader was dead, and the fish rots from the head. It wouldn't last long. Unless China got involved. Are you being deliberately obtuse? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 Sooner America Nukes NK the better the Chinese like cash too much to get into a war with the US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 3 April 2017 Share Posted 3 April 2017 1 hour ago, Buce said: Are you being deliberately obtuse? Ahaha no actually I just read your answer in a condescending voice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 4 April 2017 Share Posted 4 April 2017 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39486543 OK, so who on the PR team thought that giving seventy grand to a service he's looking to take countless millions from was a good idea? Did they really think that people wouldn't find out? Give it up, fellas. At least be totally honest about not caring about the environment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 April 2017 Share Posted 5 April 2017 http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/05/politics/steve-bannon-white-house-national-security-council/index.html?adkey=bn Bannon really should have boned up a little more on what tends to happen to Sith Masters when their apprentices gain a degree of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 5 April 2017 Share Posted 5 April 2017 6 minutes ago, leicsmac said: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/05/politics/steve-bannon-white-house-national-security-council/index.html?adkey=bn Bannon really should have boned up a little more on what tends to happen to Sith Masters when their apprentices gain a degree of power. I really wonder what has gone on here. It certainly isn't that he was keeping an eye on Flynn (who would you appoint Flynn if he needed someone to keep an eye on him...! I mean we know he needed an eye ketp on him... but you wouldn't appoint him if you knew before and decided you needed to have Bannon keep a watch on him!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 April 2017 Share Posted 5 April 2017 4 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said: I really wonder what has gone on here. It certainly isn't that he was keeping an eye on Flynn (who would you appoint Flynn if he needed someone to keep an eye on him...! I mean we know he needed an eye ketp on him... but you wouldn't appoint him if you knew before and decided you needed to have Bannon keep a watch on him!) Internal power struggle? Trump has been in hoc to Bannon and his Breitbart mini-empire in order to get the coverage needed to get the numbers, now perhaps he feels he doesn't need him anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 5 April 2017 Share Posted 5 April 2017 17 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Internal power struggle? Trump has been in hoc to Bannon and his Breitbart mini-empire in order to get the coverage needed to get the numbers, now perhaps he feels he doesn't need him anymore? Bannon knows too much, too dangerous to kick out. Ivanka and Jared want him out though apparently. So they have probably got their way. But it seems like a dangerous power move if that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 April 2017 Share Posted 5 April 2017 43 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said: Bannon knows too much, too dangerous to kick out. Ivanka and Jared want him out though apparently. So they have probably got their way. But it seems like a dangerous power move if that is the case. Hmmm...you'd think that to be the case, but it's happened, so who knows? Interesting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Black Posted 5 April 2017 Share Posted 5 April 2017 That man has a grudge against Obama.... blaming Obama for everything!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jattdogg Posted 6 April 2017 Share Posted 6 April 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, China Black said: That man has a grudge against Obama.... blaming Obama for everything!!! Obama wasnt perfect but Trump clearly wants to destroy his legacy. He will blame obama for segregation soon. Guy belongs in the bin Edited 6 April 2017 by Jattdogg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 6 April 2017 Share Posted 6 April 2017 So...soon it will be time for Trump and Xi Jinping to sit down and talk. Think anything will get agreed on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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