Innovindil Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 14 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Okay, I'm bored now and have to go continue with over a decades worth of work relating to risk assessment and young people... hint nudge.... I take your point. I understand your point. The problem is is that your common sense argument is not child centric - you've in this thread basically compared a dead 11 year old girls judgement as so stupid she should not be let out of a padded room and that your dog has a greater ability to follow instruction than she did. Basically implying that she got what she deserved..... Perhaps think about that for a moment before writing the same thing again in another post. Your car park analogy is bullshit and it's bullshit because in a car park the child is under parental / gaurdian supervision and also if at a child's theme park there are not pavements or marked walkways for children then to be honest you've also got some issues there too! On a ride it's different - if 11 year old kids can pay to get on a ride unsupervised it needs to be fit for purpose and if there is scope for children to behave like children then there are elements of the ride that need adapting in order to mitigate that risk or else when accidents happen you'll be held liable. Not what she deserved, no one deserves to die young. Just that she got what HER actions brought about and blaming others for her actions is ridiculous. They have mitigated the risk, they've told her to remain seated. What more do you expect, they can't strap people into a raft, that presents a higher risk when they are on water. This ride has been open for 20 years, a freak accident doesn't, and shouldn't, make Drayton liable. 11 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: If your sat down and you find yourself on a puddle of water... what's your instant reaction? Whats ts the circular silver bar in the middle for - to hold on to, because people do tend to stand up briefly on the ride when they get wet. I find your post above quite crass, it shows a complete lack of compassion and you might wish to consider this is somebodies child. Chances are, this situation involved a freak combination of unfortunate and unforeseen occurrences that resulted in the saddest of results. Not a lack of compassion at all, I'm sad the girl is dead, I just won't join the circle jerk of trying to find someone to blame in an accident. The metal wheel in the middle is what you are told to hold onto while seated to keep you, ironically, secure in your seat. Not as an assistant to standing, which again, you are repeatedly told not to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 6 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: If it's a ride that requires an adult to be in the raft then the Park should not have allowed it to leave the boarding area. And would an adult being in the raft saved this from happening? Perhaps not. Perhaps there is joint blame maybe they should not have let it leave the boarding area, I am sure these rides normally say an adult must accompany children under a certain height (120cms I think). Whether the children were over that height I do not know but either way the school should have had a better handle on things. If an adult had been present they may have advised her to sit down before it was too late, small things can make a massive difference. In my opinion the school should have done more, perhaps there rides need a review on how people travel in them heights to travel alone etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 18 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Not what she deserved, no one deserves to die young. Just that she got what HER actions brought about and blaming others for her actions is ridiculous. They have mitigated the risk, they've told her to remain seated. What more do you expect, they can't strap people into a raft, that presents a higher risk when they are on water. This ride has been open for 20 years, a freak accident doesn't, and shouldn't, make Drayton liable. Not a lack of compassion at all, I'm sad the girl is dead, I just won't join the circle jerk of trying to find someone to blame in an accident. The metal wheel in the middle is what you are told to hold onto while seated to keep you, ironically, secure in your seat. Not as an assistant to standing, which again, you are repeatedly told not to do. But all you've done is crassly blame the 11 year old. it is possible for something to be just a tragic accident, where no blame is apportioned (albeit, things can be learned from accidents that lead towards changes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Just now, DJ Barry Hammond said: But all you've done is crassly blame the 11 year old. it is possible for something to be just a tragic accident, where no blame is apportioned (albeit, things can be learned from accidents that lead towards changes). Blame is always assigned in these incidents. They're never marked down as a freak accident when the coroners investigate. I Think what @Innovindil is trying to say is similar to me, that it would be hugely unfair if the park were blamed for this accident. They plaster safety and warning signs everywhere, including, if my memory serves me (Haven't been to Drayton Manor for many years) in the boats themselves. There is very little, if anything, else that the park could have done to prevent this from happening. if all the children on the boat were above the minimum height for unsupervised riding, and they have sufficiently warned riders not to stand up, i can't think of anything else the park could have done to avoid the incident. The whole situation is extremely sad, but at the end of the day, no matter how you look at the incident, there is one very simple way the whole thing could have been avoided, and that is that the poor girl did what she was told and staying in her seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Never heard of an inquest recording a death as 'accidental' then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Just now, DJ Barry Hammond said: Never heard of an inquest recording a death as 'accidental' then? Not when health and safety rules were blatantly breached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 The only way to stop accidents like this ever occurring is for the ride not to be there in the first place. You could fall over the seat in front at the KP during a goal celebration, crack your head open and die, whose fault would that be? It wouldn't be the clubs fault because its an all seater stadium, it wouldn't be your fault because you've not set out to harm yourself, it would be an accident where no-one is to blame. Mind you, when my kids were young and went on school trips, i did used to worry that they'd be okay and i suppose if something happened i would have felt responsible for letting them go in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Jesus Christ, some of the overreactions in here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallpauldj Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 further up a comment says something like "You cant strap people to a water ride due to the added risk" at Disneyland there rapids rides have lap belts to stop people standing up. So many stand up when they realise there about to get wet to avoid it so why go on the ride in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 37 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: The only way to stop accidents like this ever occurring is for the ride not to be there in the first place. You could fall over the seat in front at the KP during a goal celebration, crack your head open and die, whose fault would that be? It wouldn't be the clubs fault because its an all seater stadium, it wouldn't be your fault because you've not set out to harm yourself, it would be an accident where no-one is to blame. Mind you, when my kids were young and went on school trips, i did used to worry that they'd be okay and i suppose if something happened i would have felt responsible for letting them go in the first place. You are correct. But the seat in the KP isn't designed as a floating adventure ride for children. If it was and a child died there would be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 2 minutes ago, smallpauldj said: further up a comment says something like "You cant strap people to a water ride due to the added risk" at Disneyland there rapids rides have lap belts to stop people standing up. So many stand up when they realise there about to get wet to avoid it so why go on the ride in the first place? Absolutely - the ride could be made safer by making adaptations to the vehicle, seating and security and I'm sure now will be. We all want kids to have fun but we can't take the attitude that 1000's of kids go football training and if only one gets bummed up by a rogue pedofile coach then the odds aren't bad and we can't wrap them up in cotton wool because there are lots of bad people out there. They are children and require service providers to protect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 13 hours ago, Swan Lesta said: Sure - though in the case of a theme park it is different as I'm sure the courts will decide in this unfortunate case. Unless the parents or guardians have signed a disclaimer to risks within the park then the park are pretty much liable. Of course we engage in riskier activities but the ones we pay for that are deemed suitable for children - when they fail to protect the child from harm will end up with the liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 1 hour ago, Innovindil said: Not what she deserved, no one deserves to die young. Just that she got what HER actions brought about and blaming others for her actions is ridiculous. They have mitigated the risk, they've told her to remain seated. What more do you expect, they can't strap people into a raft, that presents a higher risk when they are on water. This ride has been open for 20 years, a freak accident doesn't, and shouldn't, make Drayton liable. Not a lack of compassion at all, I'm sad the girl is dead, I just won't join the circle jerk of trying to find someone to blame in an accident. The metal wheel in the middle is what you are told to hold onto while seated to keep you, ironically, secure in your seat. Not as an assistant to standing, which again, you are repeatedly told not to do. An eleven year old girls decision mid ride to stand or sit shouldn't determine whether or not she lives or dies. And if you think that's a fair rational outcome or that she should be given the competency to consent to making that decision in the throws of an adventure ride then you are a tool. 48 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: Jesus Christ, some of the overreactions in here If it was your dead eleven year old girl I reckon you wouldn't consider things an over reaction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 49 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: Jesus Christ, some of the overreactions in here No-one on here saw what happened and cannot possibly know how or why. Swan Lesta in particular seems to have lost his grip on reality in this thread. We don't know what took place, therefore speculation is pointless. I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Parafox said: No-one on here saw what happened and cannot possibly know how or why. Swan Lesta in particular seems to have lost his grip on reality in this thread. We don't know what took place, therefore speculation is pointless. I'm out. Yeah okay she got what she deserved and it's her fault for standing up (even if she did or didn't) - I've lost my grip on reality - wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Just now, Swan Lesta said: Yeah okay she got what she deserved and it's her fault for standing up (even if she did or didn't) - I've lost my grip on reality - wow. Nobody is saying anyone deserved to die. I cant speak for anyone else, but all i'm saying is that there is only 1 person at fault for what happened. I'm not sure why you're jumping on everyone's backs for looking at the situation with a little bit of logic and common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: An eleven year old girls decision mid ride to stand or sit shouldn't determine whether or not she lives or dies. And if you think that's a fair rational outcome or that she should be given the competency to consent to making that decision in the throws of an adventure ride then you are a tool. If it was your dead eleven year old girl I reckon you wouldn't consider things an over reaction? What you've pretty much suggested previously is that everyone should be bubble wrapped to be kept safe. Of course there's a danger going on the ride, but it's one you take. There's danger in everyday life. Perhaps kids shouldn't be allowed to cross the road, or use cutlery, or even get in a car with their parents as there could be a bad driver on the road. It's an awful thing to have happened, but unfortunately, shit does happen. You're going round in circles and making yourself look a bit daft in some of your posts suggesting people think she got what she deserved etc. It's actually quite sad that you seem to think people believe this. I can only imagine it gives you a warm fuzzy sense of moral superiority inside. So consider this my only reply. I've no time or patience for your overreactions and view that anyone else seeing things differently is plain wrong or stupid. Just now, Parafox said: No-one on here saw what happened and cannot possibly know how or why. Swan Lesta in particular seems to have lost his grip on reality in this thread. We don't know what took place, therefore speculation is pointless. I'm out. Seconded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Just now, Darkon84 said: What you've pretty much suggested previously is that everyone should be bubble wrapped to be kept safe. Of course there's a danger going on the ride, but it's one you take. There's danger in everyday life. Perhaps kids shouldn't be allowed to cross the road, or use cutlery, or even get in a car with their parents as there could be a bad driver on the road. It's an awful thing to have happened, but unfortunately, shit does happen. You're going round in circles and making yourself look a bit daft in some of your posts suggesting people think she got what she deserved etc. It's actually quite sad that you seem to think people believe this. I can only imagine it gives you a warm fuzzy sense of moral superiority inside. So consider this my only reply. I've no time or patience for your overreactions and view that anyone else seeing things differently is plain wrong or stupid. Seconded. No. I've not advocated for anything of the sort. If you can't read and understand the words in the thread which I have written which are around protecting children and accountability then there's no point responding. Every single thing you have written above has already been discussed and answered. As for making myself look daft. He wrote the words above stating that her own actions got her killed - an 11 year old on an adventure ride should not be able to make a reflex decision that has the power to get her killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: An eleven year old girls decision mid ride to stand or sit shouldn't determine whether or not she lives or dies. And if you think that's a fair rational outcome or that she should be given the competency to consent to making that decision in the throws of an adventure ride then you are a tool. If it was your dead eleven year old girl I reckon you wouldn't consider things an over reaction? Is it your 11 year old then? You cannot make an argument for an accident that might have happened because she might have decided to stand or sit or whatever she was trying to do despite all the warnings in place. If she decided to get in her parents car and then fell out because she opened the door would you try to mitigate that? Deciding to get in the car should not determine whether she lives or dies. Deciding to take a risk that leads to a death, could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: No. I've not advocated for anything of the sort. If you can't read and understand the words in the thread which I have written which are around protecting children and accountability then there's no point responding. Every single thing you have written above has already been discussed and answered. As for making myself look daft. He wrote the words above stating that her own actions got her killed - an 11 year old on an adventure ride should not be able to make a reflex decision that has the power to get her killed. You're digging an hole here Nick.. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 1 minute ago, Parafox said: Is it your 11 year old then? You cannot make an argument for an accident that might have happened because she might have decided to stand or sit or whatever she was trying to do despite all the warnings in place. If she decided to get in her parents car and then fell out because she opened the door would you try to mitigate that? Deciding to get in the car should not determine whether she lives or dies. Deciding to take a risk that leads to a death, could. Seat belts? Child locks? And her mums car is not a paid for ride provided by a private company and advertised as safe for 11 year olds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 14 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: An eleven year old girls decision mid ride to stand or sit shouldn't determine whether or not she lives or dies. And if you think that's a fair rational outcome or that she should be given the competency to consent to making that decision in the throws of an adventure ride then you are a tool. If it was your dead eleven year old girl I reckon you wouldn't consider things an over reaction? Her decision didn't decide if she lived or died, it decided if she'd fall over the side of the raft or not. The rest is a tragic accident. It's not fair, a lad fell in and was fine, she fell in and she wasn't, it's definitely not fair. You keep running with this "if it was your kid!" ridiculous moral argument. If it was my kid of course I'd be over reacting, it changes nothing when looking at the situation from a rational point of view instead of sitting on a moral high-horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 1 minute ago, Col city fan said: You're digging an hole here Nick.. . I'm really not. I ask for a yes or no answer to the following then: Should an 11 year old girl be given the competency to consent to going on an adventure ride which if she stands up on for whatever reason may lead to her death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: As for making myself look daft. He wrote the words above stating that her own actions got her killed - an 11 year old on an adventure ride should not be able to make a reflex decision that has the power to get her killed. This is ridiculous. Any child can and will make a snap decision to take a risk believing that it won't happen to them. Any risk could lead to a bad outcome. 11 year olds don't see the risk. They see adventure, fun, a "laugh", an adrenaline hit. What happened is tragic but to try to argue, and you have, that all risks should be taken out of life is neither rational nor possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 11 May 2017 Share Posted 11 May 2017 Just now, Parafox said: This is ridiculous. Any child can and will make a snap decision to take a risk believing that it won't happen to them. Any risk could lead to a bad outcome. 11 year olds don't see the risk. They see adventure, fun, a "laugh", an adrenaline hit. What happened is tragic but to try to argue, and you have, that all risks should be taken out of life is neither rational nor possible. I am not attempting to advocate taking ANY risks out of life - only the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.