Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[The Floyd]

32 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/disaster-texas-america-britain-yemen

Yemen has been plastered all over the news for weeks and the UK gov has more than doubled its humanitarian funding over the past year. They're not even remotely similar issues either. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Yemen has been plastered all over the news for weeks and the UK gov has more than doubled its humanitarian funding over the past year. They're not even remotely similar issues either. 

The point regarding death of people from one place and status being more newsworthy than those from others definitively stands, though. There's evidence of that everywhere you look.

[The Floyd]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

The point regarding death of people from one place and status being more newsworthy than those from others definitively stands, though. There's evidence of that everywhere you look.

Oh yeah that's definitely the case - for various reasons. But to say that 'no one is talking about Yemen' is just typical unjustified and condescending hyperbole from The Guardian 

Edited 2 September 2017 by The Floyd

[Carl the Llama]

9 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Oh yeah that's definitely the case - for various reasons. But to say that 'no one is talking about Yemen' is just typical unjustified and patronising hyperbole from the Guardian 

Ignore the name of the news provider for one second if you can:  The more important point that you've missed in all that is the fact that we're boosting our public funds by providing the weapons used to subjugate the Yemenis. 

 

In a country where it's been strongly argued that a hit to the economy would be a price worth paying if it secured our freedom from bureaucratic oppression, surely that same sentiment should apply to the Yemenis' freedom from actual physical oppression and multitudinous deaths?  Why is preventing weapon sales to the Saudis seen as a bleeding heart liberal topic when they're the ones being castigated for prioritising economic success regarding the EU debate?  It's all topsy turvy if you ask me.

Edited 2 September 2017 by Carl the Llama
Clarification.

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

What's your theory squire?

Blair needed to keep the debt to GDP down, so he was eligible to join the euro. So he valued our EU relationship higher than the future of the NHS. What a knob.

[The Floyd]

8 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Ignore the name of the news provider for one second if you can:  The more important point that you've missed in all that is the fact that we're boosting our public funds by providing the weapons used to subjugate the Yemenis. 

 

In a country where it's been strongly argued that a hit to the economy would be a price worth paying if it secured our freedom from bureaucratic oppression, surely that same sentiment should apply to the Yemenis' freedom from actual physical oppression and multitudinous deaths?  Why is preventing weapon sales to the Saudis seen as a bleeding heart liberal topic when they're the ones being castigated for prioritising economic success regarding the EU debate?  It's all topsy turvy if you ask me.

Although I didn't intend to get into a discussion on the merits and morality of UK-Saudi arms deals, you do raise a fair point re where the funding of the aid comes from.

 

But again, to suggest no one is already talking about this is completely untrue. Both the Saudi arms deal and the Yemen crisis have received a fair amount of coverage on a host of news outlets. Add to that the bizarre comparison of the issues to the flooding in Texas, it just makes for an incredibly unsubstantiated article. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

23 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Ignore the name of the news provider for one second if you can:  The more important point that you've missed in all that is the fact that we're boosting our public funds by providing the weapons used to subjugate the Yemenis. 

 

In a country where it's been strongly argued that a hit to the economy would be a price worth paying if it secured our freedom from bureaucratic oppression, surely that same sentiment should apply to the Yemenis' freedom from actual physical oppression and multitudinous deaths?  Why is preventing weapon sales to the Saudis seen as a bleeding heart liberal topic when they're the ones being castigated for prioritising economic success regarding the EU debate?  It's all topsy turvy if you ask me.

I'd rather we didn't sell weapons to the Saudis. I'd rather we had nothing to do with them ever. If you want me to pretend I give a shit about Yemen, well I'm struggling tbh. 

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Although I didn't intend to get into a discussion on the merits and morality of UK-Saudi arms deals, you do raise a fair point re where the funding of the aid comes from.

 

But again, to suggest no one is already talking about this is completely untrue. Both the Saudi arms deal and the Yemen crisis have received a fair amount of coverage on a host of news outlets. Add to that the bizarre comparison of the issues to the flooding in Texas, it just makes for an incredibly unsubstantiated article. 

So it's good to look after the economy by having a trade partnership with oppressive nations, it's bad to look after the economy by having a trade union with peaceful nations.

[The Floyd]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

So it's good to look after the economy by having a trade partnership with oppressive nations, it's bad to look after the economy by having a trade union with peaceful nations.

Erm well considering that I'm wholeheartedly against the arms sales to SA and I voted remain, no. 

[Carl the Llama]

6 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Erm well considering that I'm wholeheartedly against the arms sales to SA and I voted remain, no. 

To be fair you're not one of the posters with a history of defending the Saudi issue as liberal hysteria or claiming they'd happily see the economy plummet to escape the EU that I was hoping for a response from, I was hoping they'd jump in to defend their views but if they don't want to speak up I can't blame them, I'm struggling to work out how those views can be logically consistent.

Edited 2 September 2017 by Carl the Llama
Clarification once more.

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

So it's good to look after the economy by having a trade partnership with oppressive nations, it's bad to look after the economy by having a trade union with peaceful nations.

At the moment there seem to be certain positions that people automatically distance themselves from depending on where they seem themselves on the political spectrum. So you end up with a lot of hypocrisy - let's say, for example, someone on the left passionate about women's rights but silent on misogyny in Islam. Or a Tory brexiteer seeing the unemployed as labour-voting dossers one minute to salt of the Earth, screwed over by free movement the next minute. Or the economy is important / 'some things are more important than the economy' dichotomy that you described, that exists on the left and right. 

Very little nuance in UK political discussion atm.

[Strokes]

14 minutes ago, bovril said:

At the moment there seem to be certain positions that people automatically distance themselves from depending on where they seem themselves on the political spectrum. So you end up with a lot of hypocrisy - let's say, for example, someone on the left passionate about women's rights but silent on misogyny in Islam. Or a Tory brexiteer seeing the unemployed as labour-voting dossers one minute to salt of the Earth, screwed over by free movement the next minute. Or the economy is important / 'some things are more important than the economy' dichotomy that you described, that exists on the left and right. 

Very little nuance in UK political discussion atm.

It's not new, people have always been hypocritical. It just wasn't quite so obvious.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It's not new, people have always been hypocritical. It just wasn't quite so obvious.

Probably true.

[Strokes]

Just now, bovril said:

Probably true.

For example and I admit my own hypocrisy in your example.

Ive been banging on about the failings of the eu and how it's making us poorer since I joined this forum but I was lucky if I even got a sensible reply. People just didn't want to listen. 

Its only because this topic has people who do care about the EU engaged now, that it is noticeable. Before I was just a nutter, now I'm a hypocrite, things are looking up 

[Webbo]

50 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

To be fair you're not one of the posters with a history of defending the Saudi issue as liberal hysteria or claiming they'd happily see the economy plummet to escape the EU that I was hoping for a response from, I was hoping they'd jump in to defend their views but if they don't want to speak up I can't blame them, I'm struggling to work out how those views can be logically consistent.

Yemen is a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Iran sponsored an uprising against the Yemeni govt because they were Saudi allies now the Saudis are helping the Yemeni govt. Because our govt is selling arms to our long term ally, same as all previous govts have done for decades, it's been decided by the left that the Saudis are the bad guys. The truth is there are no good or bad guys in these situations, they're both as bad as each other. Do I care about the Yemenis? About as much as you do.

 

Leaving the EU is a change to our trading relationship with the EU not stopping it altogether. There may be a short term hit to our economy but I don't believe it'll do long term damage. It might even improve it.

[Alf Bentley]

Good article by Natalie Nougayrède (French journalist, formerly of Le Monde): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/02/brexit-britain-deal-europe-clean-break-fractious-talks-brussels

 

It looks at how Brexit is viewed very differently on the continent, compared to here:

- UK sees Brexit negotiations as THE central political issue of our day and a joint venture between the UK and EU, which we have an equal interest in arguing/negotiating about

- EU sees Brexit as important but less central and more as a British initiative, so essentially to be resolved by the UK with the EU just protecting itself against major damage

 

I've not spent much time on the continent in recent years, so don't know how accurate this is, but it rings true. We do tend to see ourselves as more central than others do.

I suppose it's like the Scottish referendum. The rest of the UK had some interest and opinions on that, but it wasn't central. It was seen as mainly up to the Scots to decide, with the rest of the UK just protecting its interests if they did decide to leave.

[bovril]

27 minutes ago, Strokes said:

For example and I admit my own hypocrisy in your example.

Ive been banging on about the failings of the eu and how it's making us poorer since I joined this forum but I was lucky if I even got a sensible reply. People just didn't want to listen. 

Its only because this topic has people who do care about the EU engaged now, that it is noticeable. Before I was just a nutter, now I'm a hypocrite, things are looking up 

Maybe foxestalk could replace 'first team', 'reserve team' etc with 'nutter', 'hypocrite', 'twat'. In that order.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Blair needed to keep the debt to GDP down, so he was eligible to join the euro. So he valued our EU relationship higher than the future of the NHS. What a knob.

Well that's just opinion isn't it? We were never close to joining and there'd have been no prospect of us not being able to. 

 

38 minutes ago, Strokes said:

For example and I admit my own hypocrisy in your example.

Ive been banging on about the failings of the eu and how it's making us poorer since I joined this forum but I was lucky if I even got a sensible reply. People just didn't want to listen. 

Its only because this topic has people who do care about the EU engaged now, that it is noticeable. Before I was just a nutter, now I'm a hypocrite, things are looking up 

So you don't like the eu making us poorer yet (as you said yesterday) don't mind brexit making us poorer?

[Strokes]

21 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Well that's just opinion isn't it? We were never close to joining and there'd have been no prospect of us not being able to. 

 

So you don't like the eu making us poorer yet (as you said yesterday) don't mind brexit making us poorer?

Pretty convenient he kept GDP debt at around that figure until GB said we could not join the euro.

 

I don't believe brexit will make us poorer and yes I do mind it making us poorer but I value the freedoms of exiting over wealth. 

 

What do you value above the economy? Anything?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Pretty convenient he kept GDP debt at around that figure until GB said we could not join the euro.

 

I don't believe brexit will make us poorer and yes I do mind it making us poorer but I value the freedoms of exiting over wealth. 

 

What do you value above the economy? Anything?

I value a whole range of issues over finance though of course unfortunately you can't do much without money. I just find it odd that brexit has caused people - including me - to argue for the opposite of what they'd normally argue. 

The eu exists for free trade. Its an icon of neoliberal thought and finance and big business have flourished. It should be a tory dream. Yet it is largely right wing voters wanting out and arguing that it is more important than the economy. That is about as un-tory as it gets. The opposite is true of left wingers like me happy to put society above big business normally yet crowing about the economic fallout of brexit. It's a weird time. 

[Strokes]

Just now, toddybad said:

I value a whole range of issues over finance though of course unfortunately you can't do much without money. I just find it odd that brexit has caused people - including me - to argue for the opposite of what they'd normally argue. 

The eu exists for free trade. Its an icon of neoliberal thought and finance and big business have flourished. It should be a tory dream. Yet it is largely right wing voters wanting out and arguing that it is more important than the economy. That is about as un-tory as it gets. The opposite is true of left wingers like me happy to put society above big business normally yet crowing about the economic fallout of brexit. It's a weird time. 

I said this leading up to the referendum, the left wing case for exit is far superior.

Im not a dyed in the wool Tory, I just tend to vote on single issues such as brexit and conservatives have generally facilitated that. I was closer to voting labour this time round than I was conservative.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Maybe foxestalk could replace 'first team', 'reserve team' etc with 'nutter', 'hypocrite', 'twat'. In that order.

One day I will earn enough respect on here to be deemed a twat.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I said this leading up to the referendum, the left wing case for exit is far superior.

Im not a dyed in the wool Tory, I just tend to vote on single issues such as brexit and conservatives have generally facilitated that. I was closer to voting labour this time round than I was conservative.

I didn't think i remembered you as a tory but last few days you did seem to lurch to the right 

[Webbo]

11 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I value a whole range of issues over finance though of course unfortunately you can't do much without money. I just find it odd that brexit has caused people - including me - to argue for the opposite of what they'd normally argue. 

The eu exists for free trade. Its an icon of neoliberal thought and finance and big business have flourished. It should be a tory dream. Yet it is largely right wing voters wanting out and arguing that it is more important than the economy. That is about as un-tory as it gets. The opposite is true of left wingers like me happy to put society above big business normally yet crowing about the economic fallout of brexit. It's a weird time. 

The EU exists for free trade between it's members other than that it's quite protectionist.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

One day I will earn enough respect on here to be deemed a twat.

I've been known as a twat for ages. Glad to hear it's merely as aspiration for others 

Edited 2 September 2017 by Guest