Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Hitler would be proud. 

 

But let's not conflate being pro-Corbyn with being Corbyn approved much like you'd take issue with suggestions that racists supporting Ukip means Ukip supports racism.

I agree with that but Labour do probably have to ask themselves the question of why so many anti-semites are now attracted to the party, in the same way UKIP did with racists.

 

I'm trying to find out if he is a member of the party, he has spoken at some of the fringe events.

[Guest MattP]

Housing charity Shelter warns Jeremy Corbyn's rent plan will increase homelessness

http://www.cityam.com/272832/housing-charity-shelter-warns-jeremy-corbyns-rent-plan

 

Quote

Housing charity Shelter has warned that Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn’s plans for rent controls could lead to increased homelessness in the UK.

The charity has argued that hefty rent controls, a policy set out by Corbyn in his speech to Labour conference, would push landlords to sell their properties.

This would help middle-income families looking to buy a home, but could push low-income renters onto the streets, said Steve Akehurst, Shelter's head of public affairs.

Polly Neate, Shelter CEO, said: “Shelter supports controls that lengthen tenancies and protect families from unfair rent rises but not old fashioned rent-setting which we think could end up harming the very people on low incomes they’re meant to help, if and when landlords sell their properties.”

Ben Southwood, head of research at the Adam Smith Institute, said Corbyn’s policy would lead to “smaller properties, shoddier upkeep, and long waiting lists to get a flat”.

 

 

[davieG]

Politicians = more sound bites than sound ideas.

 

 

[Fox Ulike]

15 hours ago, Sampson said:

But if you've read it why are you just quoting a point which is ignoring everything I said? I don't understand what you're trying to say - that the system you are proposing will magically wipe this out when it hasn't before?

 

You asked why I think we need  a wealth inequality to create more innovation and I explained it to which you gave a completely unrelated point about dying children which has nothing to do with free market Capitalism. I even said that free market Capitalism hasn't worked in every instance but it has worked better than any other system and we have less poverty than any other system we've ever come up with (which is undoubtedly true).

 

What country do this children come from? Do they even live in free market Western Capitalist countries which have had time to develop? Or do a lot of them live in former Socialist and heavily Command Economy countries that have only just opened up some of their markets and many of their markets are still restricted like China, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Venezuela, Russia, Libya, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. etc. - and if they do, how is it in comparison to other countries which restrict the freedom of their markets? If so, what's your point as to why this is a failing of long term free markets and how is it related? Where have I claimed there isn't still poverty or that capitalism always works without failure- i haven't, but I've said that allowing Capitalists a free market and a fair Stock Market of which to invest in has shown to be a better way of pulling people out of poverty than has forcing wealth distribution.

 

If you want to believe it's all text book rhetoric then that's fine - but you think this is just guesswork? You don't think that this is in fact text book rhetoric because it's proven to be the best system we've honed thus far over thousands of years whereas forcing mass wealth redistribution and extra nationalisation (which have been tried plenty of the times in the past and not proven to be as effective) and that all the Economics and Historians who spend their lives studying this are all wrong?

Again, you're doing what Climate Change deniers do - you're ignoring the overwhelming expert mainstream view of Economists and Historians who give their life researching this stuff for your own personal ideological tendencies. Call me crazy, but I think I'll take the overwhelming conclusions of the Economists that free markets are far better wealth creators, allow for far more innovation and are far more efficient than nationalised or restricted ones any day of the week.

 

The reason I’m ignoring everything else is, to be blunt J, because it’s irrelevant. You’re answering a question that no-one has asked.

 

I was on this thread pretty much all day yesterday, and during that time I read no posts from anyone questioning the Capitalist system. And certainly no-one suggesting that an alternative system should replace it. And absolutely certainly not from me. I'm not proposing any system.

 

You made the dependency between wealth inequality and innovation. I then made the connection (surely not disputed?) between wealth inequality and poverty, and then from poverty to death.

 

So, despite your encyclopediac knowledge of Capitalism, you are left scratching your head in wonder when I then ask you if there is a direct connection between innovation and child deaths from poverty.  Your conclusion is that I'm like a Climate Change denier!?! Eh??

 

It’s like I’ve asked you to change a lightbulb, and you are staring at it mumbling about methods of high voltage transmission and the different wavelights of photons. Meanwhile we both sit there in the dark.

 

Your knowledge, impressive as it is, is worthless without the ability to filter and apply it to the question that you’re asked. I get the same response from you as I would get from 'Ask Jeeves'.

[Finnegan]

52 minutes ago, MattP said:

Housing charity Shelter warns Jeremy Corbyn's rent plan will increase homelessness

http://www.cityam.com/272832/housing-charity-shelter-warns-jeremy-corbyns-rent-plan

 

 

 

Not a problem. More social housing. 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Not a problem. More social housing. 

Trailer parks

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

I agree with that but Labour do probably have to ask themselves the question of why so many anti-semites are now attracted to the party, in the same way UKIP did with racists.

 

I'm trying to find out if he is a member of the party, he has spoken at some of the fringe events.

Are you still talking about the non- member who spoke at the fringe event? He was an israeli american who was talking about free speech. It's a stitch up by the media. Read the actual comments and the comments he made to the media after and it is nothing like how the daily mail et al are presenting it. 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Are you still talking about the non- member who spoke at the fringe event? He was an israeli american who was talking about free speech. It's a stitch up by the media. Read the actual comments and the comments he made to the media after and it is nothing like how the daily mail et al are presenting it. 

No I'm talking about the party as a whole and why it attracts so many anti-semites as supporters. 

 

The Ken Loach interview on the BBC is very weird, couldn't even bring himself to say that people shouldn't question the holocaust.

[Fox Ulike]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

No I'm talking about the party as a whole and why it attracts so many anti-semites as supporters. 

 

The Ken Loach interview on the BBC is very weird, couldn't even bring himself to say that people shouldn't question the holocaust.

The Daily Mail yesterday: "Once in the shadows, anti-Semitism is now entrenched at the poisoned heart of the Labour Party."

 

MattP today: "I wonder why Labour attracts so many anti-semites as supporters?"

 

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

The Daily Mail yesterday: "Once in the shadows, anti-Semitism is now entrenched at the poisoned heart of the Labour Party."

Fvck me what a headline.  Got to bear in mind that's an op ed piece rather than news and that the left wing press is equally guilty of publishing polarised and heavily exaggerated opinion pieces.

 

And in fairness to Matt he's been talking on and off about Labour's antisemitism for years.

[Fox Ulike]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Fvck me what a headline.  Got to bear in mind that's an op ed piece rather than news and that the left wing press is equally guilty of publishing polarised and heavily exaggerated opinion pieces.

 

And in fairness to Matt he's been talking on and off about Labour's antisemitism for years.

"Equally guilty". Really??

 

Let's put it to the test. Can you find a piece in the Mainstream media that's as warped and exaggerated as that one? And bear in mind that this happens on a weekly basis against Labour, can you find one against the Conservatives as bad as that one in the last ten years?

 

To help you out a bit (cos i'm nice like that), you might wanna look at an equivalent situation when Boris Johnson described Africans as "flag-waving picanninies".  Was he hounded by the left wring press until the Conservatives were forced to expel him from the party for such racist remarks? 

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Fox Ulike said:

"Equally guilty". Really??

 

Let's put it to the test. Can you find a piece in the Mainstream media that's as warped and exaggerated as that one? And bear in mind that this happens on a weekly basis against Labour, can you find one against the Conservatives as bad as that one in the last ten years?

 

To help you out a bit (cos i'm nice like that), you might wanna look at an equivalent situation when Boris Johnson described Africans as "flag-waving picanninies".  Was he hounded by the left wring press until the Conservatives were forced to expel him from the party for such racist remarks? 

Oh good now the leftists are as upset with me as the rightists  Open mindedness is clearly overrated if you want to make friends. 

 

You know I'm not going to trawl through the last ten years of left wing op ed pieces but here's a similarly disdainful piece about Nigel Farage (a man for whom I have zero love) from yesterday and I daresay some of our right-wing friends are probably already familiar with what they consider to be similar levels of guff aimed at Tory or UKIP and I implore them to post any good examples they can think of, though as a partisan individual I'm sure you'd find yourself agreeing with the piece and therefore claiming it doesn't disprove your belief.

 

As for people being hounded by left wing press - does the Canary's attack on Laura Kuenssberg count?

 

And outside of the press the extreme left have a strong history of social media campaigns hounding people for saying things they dislike, doxing them so that others can harass them at home or get them fired from their job, no-platforming them when they try to give talks on University campuses and so on and so forth (I say extreme because I consider myself left of centre and am loath to be associated with their ilk, but in reality more moderate leftists tend to get involved with this pack mentality and because it's really easy to sign a petition to no-platform a right-wing speaker without duly considering the ramifications on freedom of speech).  That's not behaviour that you see as often from right-wing sources although it is starting to become more prevalent 'thanks' to places like 4chan.

[Fox Ulike]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Oh good now the leftists are as upset with me as the rightists  Open mindedness is clearly overrated if you want to make friends. 

 

You know I'm not going to trawl through the last ten years of left wing op ed pieces but here's a similarly disdainful piece about Nigel Farage (a man for whom I have zero love) from yesterday and I daresay some of our right-wing friends are probably already familiar with what they consider to be similar levels of guff aimed at Tory or UKIP and I implore them to post any good examples they can think of, though as a partisan individual I'm sure you'd find yourself agreeing with the piece and therefore claiming it doesn't disprove your belief.

 

As for people being hounded by left wing press - does the Canary's attack on Laura Kuenssberg count?

 

And outside of the press the extreme left have a strong history of social media campaigns hounding people for saying things they dislike, doxing them so that others can harass them at home or get them fired from their job, no-platforming them when they try to give talks on University campuses and so on and so forth (I say extreme because I consider myself left of centre and am loath to be associated with their ilk, but in reality more moderate leftists tend to get involved with this pack mentality and because it's really easy to sign a petition to no-platform a right-wing speaker without duly considering the ramifications on freedom of speech).  That's not behaviour that you see as often from right-wing sources although it is starting to become more prevalent 'thanks' to places like 4chan.

 

"The poisoned heart of the Labour Party" isn't comparable to "So long Nigel Farage". Not in the same League.

 

Nothing on the Conservatives then? They got a free ride for the Foreign Secretary's racism, which ironically, actually is at the heart of the Conservative Party. That's our Boris!

 

Not even the same sport.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Interesting wording..... (they have apologised and said it was unintentional)

[Carl the Llama]

16 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

"The poisoned heart of the Labour Party" isn't comparable to "So long Nigel Farage". Not in the same League.

 

Nothing on the Conservatives then? They got a free ride for the Foreign Secretary's racism, which ironically, actually is at the heart of the Conservative Party. That's our Boris!

 

Not even the same sport.

Ok so now you're calling the Tory party racist and I suspect you might be right that some top ranking Tories hold racist views, but that's purely based on circumstantial evidence much like the claims of Labour antisemitism that you take issue with.  I've not seen Tory policies that discriminate against people by race (merely by income) and I've not seen any Labour policies that discriminate against Jews.

 

Edit:  Also I notice that you have nothing to say about the harassment campaigns that stem from leftists.

Edited 28 September 2017 by Carl the Llama

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Interesting wording..... (they have apologised and said it was unintentional)

 

Hmm.

 

I don't believe that was unintentional at all.

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

Hmm.

 

I don't believe that was unintentional at all.

Hard to believe but I suppose you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Buce]

Just now, MattP said:

Hard to believe but I suppose you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

No, not at all.

 

Someone was trying to be clever with words, and wildly misjudged it.

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

On 26/09/2017 at 22:58, leicsmac said:

To be honest, in the list of things to worry about in the future, economics is pretty low on the list.

Sorry leicsmac that's a fairly dullard comment. The economy influences most aspects of what is/can/will be done by a government/country.

 

if it's low on your list then, hey, congratulations as for most normal people it's a huge issue related to jobs/home finances/pensions/savings.

 

 

[Lionator]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Interesting wording..... (they have apologised and said it was unintentional)

Jesus, they're really not helping themselves at the minute. Massively frustrating as a Labour supporter.

[Carl the Llama]

Not sure what to make of that LFPME tweet tbh.  Could be as simple as an intern thinking they're being clever, could even be a genuine act of ignorance, but it certainly doesn't come across well when the whole world's scrutinising the party over antisemitism.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Sorry leicsmac that's a fairly dullard comment. The economy influences most aspects of what is/can/will be done by a government/country.

 

if it's low on your list then, hey, congratulations as for most normal people it's a huge issue related to jobs/home finances/pensions/savings.

 

 

Fair comment. You will find my reasoning for such belief in my responses to Sampson in the last couple of pages.

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

On 27/09/2017 at 09:39, Foxin_mad said:

Corbyn and McDonnell are both self confessed raving socialists, surely the whole point of them is to run a socialist government! Through momentum they are currently brainwashing or bullying others into following their path. Nasty Party.

They are Marxists. This is "6th gear" socialism. Fast lane lefties....

 

Some fully get this and are totally happy. Most are either naive or blinkered by tribalism. 

 

Either way, the current Labour Party does not reflect the previous 7 decades. This is a new direction and it's hard core...

 

So many decent, Labour parliamentarians who've previously supported the armed forces, royalty, country and most importantly the actual working class. These lot are so beset with hard core Marxist views they hate Jews, the army, royal family, private land owners, independent wealth and perversely most worryingly the actual working class ( other than their vote of course). In fact they hate most of what Britain is/was.

 

What an utter mess......

 

I crave for a Labour Party run by a "John Smith". A decent, honourable proud Britain, who clearly loved his county, really did care and represent the working class man and above all wasn't a marixist. 

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Interesting wording..... (they have apologised and said it was unintentional)

Not having that's unintentional at all, you'd have to be a colossal idiot to miss the significance of talking about a final solution and Israel when the party is already embroiled in accusations of anti-semitism.

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fair comment. You will find my reasoning for such belief in my responses to Sampson in the last couple of pages.

Ok read it. That's some deep thoughts you've got. I'm not going to say you're wrong as it's your opinion and I am by a million miles away an expert on economics.

 

My take on it is rather more simple compared to yours:

 

Lots of jobs now compared to both the 90's, early 2000's and more recently 2008-12. Record employment currently. Interest rates still low (just), stock market very high, government net borrowing is still going down (slowly, but still down), private sector pensions showing strong growth, house prices slightly Plateauing at last, council tax levelled out and so on. Overall economically we're doing pretty good considering the rest of the EU is struggling (Germany aside).

 

Yes, numerous things economically aren't right or perfect and redistribution of wealth can be achieved better with different agendas, but my point from the other day is if "this" opposition party are having to openly talk about a "run on the pound", you can bet they know their plans are revolutionary, you can forget all the points above and any wealth creation as it WILL leave.

 

In my simpleton world, if they get in power we'd go fast down the f@@king plug hole....