Guest MattP Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 2 hours ago, Buce said: For the same reason they scrapped student grants and are doing their best to completely dismantle the welfare system - they have a pathological hatred of the working class. Yeah because taking away a bung to the middle classes is a sure fire way of showing you hate the working class. There are obvious ways to show you hate a demographic as a political party, you can ban them events or charge them more to turn up etc.
Jon the Hat Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 9 minutes ago, toddybad said: There are 40,000 nursing vacancies and the number of EU nurses joining the NHS has dropped by 96%. We can't sustain just staying level let alone s degrees decrease. And postgraduates leaving with a debt instead of no debt have received no benefits from this. There was a 0.2% reduction in the number of nurses, so i don't think this is really the problem is it? The problem is that instead of increasing the number of nurses to reduce the stress of the job, the NHS has paid them a lot more over the last 20 years.
Buce Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: Yeah because taking away a bung to the middle classes is a sure fire way of showing you hate the working class. There are obvious ways to show you hate a demographic as a political party, you can ban them events or charge them more to turn up etc. They despise you just as they do everyone else of your class, and when they no longer need your vote you'll be cast aside like a used condom. But, hey - you keep tugging that forelock, mate.
Guest MattP Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: They despise you just as they do everyone else of your class, and when they no longer need your vote you'll be cast aside like a used condom. But, hey - you keep tugging that forelock, mate. Why not answer the points made instead of spouting conspiracy theories and paranoid thoughts? If they do hate the working class why have they taken so many low paid people out of taxation all together? Why do they keep borrowing to spend money we don't have on public services? What class am I even in Buce? You assume I'm working class? Who are now the party of the working class if I did want to vote for them?
Alf Bentley Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 20 minutes ago, MattP said: Hinting at a run on the pound, telling us it's shit or bust. I've been suspicious for a while they are trying to tell us this won't work and now this It took me a while, but I got it eventually. Mind you, I'm not sure that CONservative eCONomics is bringing great joy into many people's lives...
Strokes Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 3 hours ago, toddybad said: Can anybody come up with a single good reason why they'd want to scrap nursing bursaries? It's like the Tories are daring the electorate to vote Labour http://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/jeremy-hunt-under-fire-from-rcn-and-labour-hell-bent-on-cuts-student-bursary-equality-analysis-reveals-bame-mature-students-deterred_uk_5a81e6e6e4b08dfc9306c1b5/?3s=&__twitter_impression=true I’d accept the idea as ok, if the carrot at the end of the stick was worth it. Although nurses don’t get paid bad for what they do, they certainly don’t get paid well for it. Five years university and a huge student loan to pay off for £28k at largely unsociable hours is ridiculous. My wife could not have done her training without the bursary and I imagine that goes for most mature nurses, tbh. You may as well save the effort and become a health care assistant.
Buce Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: Why not answer the points made instead of spouting conspiracy theories and paranoid thoughts? If they do hate the working class why have they taken so many low paid people out of taxation all together? Why do they keep borrowing to spend money we don't have on public services? What class am I even in Buce? You assume I'm working class? Who are now the party of the working class if I did want to vote for them? There only two classes - the eilites and everyone else. You are clearly not an elite, just a forelock tugger without the wisdom to question your masters. 1
Innovindil Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 Just now, Buce said: There only two classes - the eilites and everyone else. You are clearly not an elite, just a forelock tugger without the wisdom to question your masters. Damn, the eilites have invaded. Everybody run for your lives!
Guest Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 14 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: There was a 0.2% reduction in the number of nurses, so i don't think this is really the problem is it? The problem is that instead of increasing the number of nurses to reduce the stress of the job, the NHS has paid them a lot more over the last 20 years. A well paid nurse will earn £28000. That's couple of grand above average wage for being knee deep in blood, piss and shit. The issue here is that student debt began with the idea that graduates earned more and so a contribution towards the cost was fair. At £1k then £3k. The move to £9k and beyond (and it would be will beyond if public opinion hadn't caught up with the Tories) things have gone way too far. We now have nurses who earn below average wage for most of their careers being asked to take on huge debt to go into their profession. So the idea that you're investing in your future earnings no longer applies. It's simply pay to learn. Conservative manna from heaven. Society's regret.
Innovindil Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 5 minutes ago, toddybad said: A well paid nurse will earn £28000. That's couple of grand above average wage for being knee deep in blood, piss and shit. The issue here is that student debt began with the idea that graduates earned more and so a contribution towards the cost was fair. At £1k then £3k. The move to £9k and beyond (and it would be will beyond if public opinion hadn't caught up with the Tories) things have gone way too far. We now have nurses who earn below average wage for most of their careers being asked to take on huge debt to go into their profession. So the idea that you're investing in your future earnings no longer applies. It's simply pay to learn. Conservative manna from heaven. Society's regret. You've missed off getting to go home knowing you've helped people, which (I've been told) is priceless. I doubt many nurses get into the profession for the money, they've never been in the eilite bracket have they.
Guest MattP Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 24 minutes ago, Buce said: There only two classes - the eilites and everyone else. You are clearly not an elite, just a forelock tugger without the wisdom to question your masters. Whatever you are smoking, put it down. This is the sort of stuff you get from Alex Jones. The irony of the last statement is incredible given you want the Brexit vote, the biggest ever public rally against the elite, reversed.
Strokes Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 6 minutes ago, Innovindil said: You've missed off getting to go home knowing you've helped people, which (I've been told) is priceless. I doubt many nurses get into the profession for the money, they've never been in the eilite bracket have they. Whilst true, no nurse would get into it purely for the money, no nurse gets into it to have a life on the breadline either. It’s a highly skilled profession and really the pay ought to reflect that. They're are plenty of easier ways to get your fix from helping people that you could do alongside a well paid job. A country investing in its people, so that they can do highly skilled jobs, is a vision we should all share if you ask me. By removing benefits of education, we could lose the will to be educated and where would that lead us to as a nation? Surely we make enough from from foreign students now, that we can reduce or eradicate tuition fees? It’s not just higher education either, we should make further education free too.
Alf Bentley Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said: There was a 0.2% reduction in the number of nurses, so i don't think this is really the problem is it? The problem is that instead of increasing the number of nurses to reduce the stress of the job, the NHS has paid them a lot more over the last 20 years. I can't be bothered to check all these nursing stats that are flying around. But certain facts seem clear: - We have an aging population. So, unless we accept lower standards of healthcare, we need the number of nurses to increase - likewise, care workers, doctors etc. - There are currently a lot of nursing vacancies and numbers are falling, not rising - There has been a massive fall in the number of nurses coming from the EU - A significant proportion of nurses are nearing retirement - At a time when we need more nurses and are discouraging foreign nurses, the govt has made it more financially challenging for Brits to train as nurses - The same applies with social care: at a time of growing need, central govt is slashing local govt funding, so that many care homes are closing down & the working lives of visiting care assistants are being made impossible (time-limited visits, low pay) There's a wider point. One of the key factors behind the Brexit vote was concern over high immigration. If we want lower immigration, we need to ensure that British workers are trained and prepared to take the job vacancies. What is the govt doing to achieve that? Either nothing or introducing counter-productive measures like the bursaries policy. It has also been in the news about large amounts of crop waste due to a shortage of seasonal fruit/veg pickers from EU, with some corporate farmers looking to move production abroad.....what is the govt doing to ensure that Brits are prepared to bring in the harvest? I note the claim that nursing acceptances are only slightly down, even though applications are well down. Assuming that claim is accurate (I've no idea), doesn't that suggest that a significant proportion of those accepted would NOT have been accepted previously? I suppose it could mean that only those who are most committed are still applying. But common sense suggests that some who would have applied and been accepted are not applying for financial reasons - and are being replaced by others who would not previously have been accepted. That implies a decline in the quality of future nursing staff. Edited 13 February 2018 by Alf Bentley 2
Alf Bentley Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 A couple of queries as we prepare for the brave new world of low-immigration, post-Brexit Britain... I read recently that 99%+ of seasonal fruit/veg pickers are from Eastern Europe. I did that work in my youth, across several years, 2 different counties and several different crops. 0% of pickers were foreigners. The pickers were Brit students, unemployed & housewives, plus a few teams of British gypsies. Why has that change happened - and what is the govt doing to ensure Brits take up seasonal agricultural labour? Over the period when my Dad needed care at home, I met about 8 care assistants. They were all African immigrants. Admittedly, that was London. I imagine there's more of a mix in other areas. But when I visited a care home in Leicester, several care assistants were Polish. Given the crisis in the care sector and the express desire of the British people, apparently, to accept fewer low-skilled immigrants, what is the govt doing to encourage more Brits into careers as care workers?
Innovindil Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 29 minutes ago, Strokes said: Whilst true, no nurse would get into it purely for the money, no nurse gets into it to have a life on the breadline either. It’s a highly skilled profession and really the pay ought to reflect that. They're are plenty of easier ways to get your fix from helping people that you could do alongside a well paid job. A country investing in its people, so that they can do highly skilled jobs, is a vision we should all share if you ask me. By removing benefits of education, we could lose the will to be educated and where would that lead us to as a nation? Surely we make enough from from foreign students now, that we can reduce or eradicate tuition fees? It’s not just higher education either, we should make further education free too. I'd agree with you if all these people were forced to pay back their student loans in full, they aren't. While I don't agree that the interest should be that high on them, I do believe they are needed. Having a cost reflected on your actions should push you to do better, if my education was free, I probably wouldn't have pushed myself so hard to go as far as I did. I didn't have a loan that was handed to me with a condition that I only paid it back if I got a decent job out of it, I had to hand over my own cash to get through. 75% of these student loans aren't paid off in full, to me, that shows a combination of the interest being to high on them, these courses not putting people into careers that pay enough or people dropping out because they can't handle it/can't be arsed etc etc. Why on earth should we have to pay for that. 15 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: A couple of queries as we prepare for the brave new world of low-immigration, post-Brexit Britain... I read recently that 99%+ of seasonal fruit/veg pickers are from Eastern Europe. I did that work in my youth, across several years, 2 different counties and several different crops. 0% of pickers were foreigners. The pickers were Brit students, unemployed & housewives, plus a few teams of British gypsies. Why has that change happened - and what is the govt doing to ensure Brits take up seasonal agricultural labour? Over the period when my Dad needed care at home, I met about 8 care assistants. They were all African immigrants. Admittedly, that was London. I imagine there's more of a mix in other areas. But when I visited a care home in Leicester, several care assistants were Polish. Given the crisis in the care sector and the express desire of the British people, apparently, to accept fewer low-skilled immigrants, what is the govt doing to encourage more Brits into careers as care workers? Empty overcrowded jails into the fields. Kill all the old folk. #InnoForDictator
Alf Bentley Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 2 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Empty overcrowded jails into the fields. Kill all the old folk. #InnoForDictator I actually agree with your first point. We need a big switch from prisons to community service - and why not into the fields? Not dangerous criminals or serious flight risks, obviously. Mind you, unless the prisoners were paid, it would be seen as unfair to the unemployed and as unfair competition to other sectors (food industry or beyond). Perhaps they could be paid minimum wage and jobs could also be available to non-prisoners? The prisoners could then help support their families or reimburse their victims, as appropriate. Not so sure about your second or third points....
Guest Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 13 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I'd agree with you if all these people were forced to pay back their student loans in full, they aren't. While I don't agree that the interest should be that high on them, I do believe they are needed. Having a cost reflected on your actions should push you to do better, if my education was free, I probably wouldn't have pushed myself so hard to go as far as I did. I didn't have a loan that was handed to me with a condition that I only paid it back if I got a decent job out of it, I had to hand over my own cash to get through. 75% of these student loans aren't paid off in full, to me, that shows a combination of the interest being to high on them, these courses not putting people into careers that pay enough or people dropping out because they can't handle it/can't be arsed etc etc. Why on earth should we have to pay for that. Empty overcrowded jails into the fields. Kill all the old folk. #InnoForDictator Utter nonsense. The majority of people at the top are at the older end of the labour market. They all had free educations, and grants where appropriate. What pushed them to succeed?
Innovindil Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: Utter nonsense. The majority of people at the top are at the older end of the labour market. They all had free educations, and grants where appropriate. What pushed them to succeed? Not being bellends and expecting an easy life handed to them on a plate, probably. 3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I actually agree with your first point. We need a big switch from prisons to community service - and why not into the fields? Not dangerous criminals or serious flight risks, obviously. Mind you, unless the prisoners were paid, it would be seen as unfair to the unemployed and as unfair competition to other sectors (food industry or beyond). Perhaps they could be paid minimum wage and jobs could also be available to non-prisoners? The prisoners could then help support their families or reimburse their victims, as appropriate. Not so sure about your second or third points.... I was thinking more of having the ones that want to get back into society once their terms have been served. From what I've read, it can be quite difficult reintigrating into society, having them working would help get them ready. I'd have the wages they would normally earn doing such work split between a pot for them once they have finished serving their time and a pot to go back into the prison system so they can see some of their hard work pay off immediately in the prison. Giving them something for the now and something for the future to keep them motivated. Addmitedly, my second point is skewed around my nan who is currently in a care home, who I know if she still had all her marbles would rather be gone. My third point was a joke, but I'm down if there's a consensus.
Bryn Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 I'd want a review of all degree courses and a demonstration of their direct link to revelant employment, and axing of any courses not contributing anything to its graduates beyond parties and debt, before I went anywhere near nursing training. But more students means more money for universities, presumably this means a bigger economy with no tangible improvement in the quality of life of the population as a whole. 1
Guest MattP Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 5 minutes ago, Bryn said: I'd want a review of all degree courses and a demonstration of their direct link to revelant employment, and axing of any courses not contributing anything to its graduates beyond parties and debt, before I went anywhere near nursing training. But more students means more money for universities, presumably this means a bigger economy with no tangible improvement in the quality of life of the population as a whole. This would be a great idea, we have had around 50% of the population for some time going to university and yet we have a continued shortage of engineers, doctors, nurses etc - what courses are these people doing? It's why free tuition fees is such a mental policy, you'll end up leaving bright kids back on council estates and those will wealthy parents will be off to study art or dance at Canterbury courtesy of the taxpayer. I'd happily see a system where we offer free tuition in courses where we have genuine shortages of labour.
Alf Bentley Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 10 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I was thinking more of having the ones that want to get back into society once their terms have been served. From what I've read, it can be quite difficult reintigrating into society, having them working would help get them ready. I'd have the wages they would normally earn doing such work split between a pot for them once they have finished serving their time and a pot to go back into the prison system so they can see some of their hard work pay off immediately in the prison. Giving them something for the now and something for the future to keep them motivated. Addmitedly, my second point is skewed around my nan who is currently in a care home, who I know if she still had all her marbles would rather be gone. My third point was a joke, but I'm down if there's a consensus. I quite like your first suggestion. Don't know if that makes me a social conservative or you a wet liberal. Re. your Nan, my Dad was the same during his decline. Several times he commented "I've lived too long now". A couple of times he asked me if I could "go ahead and arrange his funeral now". Once he even suggested that I could have his coffin placed on the other side of the room from his bed for ease of transfer when he died. Luckily I appreciate black humour - though his suggestion was meant seriously. He always was well-organised and remained so to the end. I regret to inform you that there is no consensus in support of your offer to serve as a dictator, though your interest in the position is appreciated.
Guest Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 7 minutes ago, MattP said: This would be a great idea, we have had around 50% of the population for some time going to university and yet we have a continued shortage of engineers, doctors, nurses etc - what courses are these people doing? It's why free tuition fees is such a mental policy, you'll end up leaving bright kids back on council estates and those will wealthy parents will be off to study art or dance at Canterbury courtesy of the taxpayer. I'd happily see a system where we offer free tuition in courses where we have genuine shortages of labour. I don't have a problem with a review of this type but either way nurses shouldn't be building up debts just to train.
Bryn Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 3 hours ago, MattP said: This would be a great idea, we have had around 50% of the population for some time going to university and yet we have a continued shortage of engineers, doctors, nurses etc - what courses are these people doing? It's why free tuition fees is such a mental policy, you'll end up leaving bright kids back on council estates and those will wealthy parents will be off to study art or dance at Canterbury courtesy of the taxpayer. I'd happily see a system where we offer free tuition in courses where we have genuine shortages of labour. Free or subsidised tuition for industries we lack graduates in seems utterly logically. I can't genuinely believe the amount of vloggers, bloggers and app designers we're producing is really helping society.
Strokes Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 4 hours ago, MattP said: This would be a great idea, we have had around 50% of the population for some time going to university and yet we have a continued shortage of engineers, doctors, nurses etc - what courses are these people doing? It's why free tuition fees is such a mental policy, you'll end up leaving bright kids back on council estates and those will wealthy parents will be off to study art or dance at Canterbury courtesy of the taxpayer. I'd happily see a system where we offer free tuition in courses where we have genuine shortages of labour. It doesn’t have to go as far as a shortage but we could definitely categorise which ones are of value to the country and which ones are more for vanity and not likely to achieve a return.
Guest Posted 13 February 2018 Posted 13 February 2018 36 minutes ago, Bryn said: Free or subsidised tuition for industries we lack graduates in seems utterly logically. I can't genuinely believe the amount of vloggers, bloggers and app designers we're producing is really helping society. Maybe not vloggers out bloggers but let's not forget that our economy has been marching towards services over manufacturing etc for years. App design is big business. We can't just focus on jobs that are or were important. The economy is changing, the world is changing. That doesn't mean a degree in David Beckham is likely to be that translatable.
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