Buce Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: The government sent us all a leaflet saying they will implement the decision we take. The have to be held to account on that otherwise we'll have a constitutional crisis we haven't seen for centuries. If Brexit was going to be so bad (although DC himself even acknowledges now it hasn't been as bad as thought) then the irresponsibility was having the referendum in the first place. If people wanted the decision reversed they had that chance last year by voting for the Liberal Democrats, SNP or the Greens - 85% of the electorate voted for parties that had it in their manifesto to implement the result - you had the chance to cancel Brexit. Yay. We agree on something.
Fox Ulike Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 Just now, Foxin_mad said: We don't actually know what we are going to get or what it is going to deliver yet though. This is the problem. We have theories and predictions based on the reality of nothing yet. Once we have an idea of what the deal is if any we will have a better idea. Many of the predictions are based on a worse case scenario which could happen but equally might not. I think some people here are getting to buried in their own agendas and self pity and actually missing the real facts! We don't have a clue what is going to happen yet! A vote has been had, a narrow win was achieved by one side, you may disagree but we need to now se what is on the table. We don't know yet. True. This is the problem. We don't know what we're signing up to. So, yes: We do need to see what's on the table. And then what? What people are upset about is that we won't get a say in whether we accept it or not. And that's not democracy. Every debate on Brexit really comes down to the overwhelming need for a second referendum. I don't see a way around it. 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said: True. This is the problem. We don't know what we're signing up to. So, yes: We do need to see what's on the table. And then what? What people are upset about is that we won't get a say in whether we accept it or not. And that's not democracy. Every debate on Brexit really comes down to the overwhelming need for a second referendum. I don't see a way around it. I tend to agree. We should have a general election and the parties should be clear on what they are going to deliver, hard brexit, soft brexit, no brexit, customs union, single market whatever. The Tories are trying to get the best of both worlds because they don't really have a mandate. The only party I see with a clear agenda is the Lib Dems Lets call and election, let the parties stand on clear positions, let the people vote. The winning party has a clear mandate then I think at least we really need that to move forward. I can accept the vote. To be honest at the moment I am inclined to think a hard brexit is better than a half arsed brexit.
Fox Ulike Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 48 minutes ago, Buce said: Personally, I think our politicians should grasp the nettle and reverse the decision to leave - the referendum was an advisory and not binding. An overwhelming number of the people we elect and pay to make decisions for us can see what a disaster awaits. Sometimes, people need protecting from themselves. I’ve not heard that argument for a while. J Of course, you’re right. We should just reverse it. If it was a business decision, the CEO and the Board would have done exactly that. Admitted it's a bad idea and abandoned it. The problem though is that the politicians aren’t in control of Brexit. That’s quite scary if you stop to think about it. They know that they can’t just reverse it without risking an almighty backlash from the right-wing propogandists that run the media and the far right themselves – possibly for decades to come. 1
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 2 hours ago, bovril said: There were a myriad of different reasons why Brexit won. In my humble opinion, it became a protest vote against a lot of things people didn't like. Some of them you mention above, but there was similarly a lot of stuff about 'metropolitan elite', post-industrial towns up north that felt left behind, worries about ever-closer union, there are libertarian Brexiters, 'lexiters', etc etc etc. Cameron (aided by Clegg) presided over 6 years of austerity and declining living standards then throws a referendum into the mix. Genius. For a lot of people, Cameron and Clegg are remain. And this, I believe, is one of the main reasons remain lost. They lost because they used the economic argument, not despite it. You're telling people that the economy is going to go to shit when, for a lot of people, it's already gone to shit. I'm a remainer, but I'm getting extremely frustrated by the pro-EU side. There's so much head-in-the-sandery it's incredible. You can tell people til you're blue in the face that immigrants aren't going to steal their jobs, but as long as living standards keep declining, it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. I think this is a fair point. I'm not entirely sure that a lot of leavers necessarily recognise that those reasons pushed them, as they tended to talk about the three mentioned, but these underlying reasons are real imo. If the economy had been working for ordinary people Brexit wouldn't be happening imo.
bovril Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: I think this is a fair point. I'm not entirely sure that a lot of leavers necessarily recognise that those reasons pushed them, as they tended to talk about the three mentioned, but these underlying reasons are real imo. If the economy had been working for ordinary people Brexit wouldn't be happening imo. For sure. There are plenty of precedents. Ordinary folk feel they have been left behind by the establishment so lash out at the establishment.
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 1 hour ago, Fox Ulike said: I’ve not heard that argument for a while. J Of course, you’re right. We should just reverse it. If it was a business decision, the CEO and the Board would have done exactly that. Admitted it's a bad idea and abandoned it. The problem though is that the politicians aren’t in control of Brexit. That’s quite scary if you stop to think about it. They know that they can’t just reverse it without risking an almighty backlash from the right-wing propogandists that run the media and the far right themselves – possibly for decades to come. It's also problematic in that the EU's 'forced' reversal of previous referendums was rightly used as a reason for leavers. Imo Brexit has become so complex and so far from what was promised - let's not forget that during the leave campaign we are told we wouldn't be leaving the single market or customs union as the EU would be begging for our business - that a second referendum could legitimately be called, probably if we were heading for the more extreme forms of Brexit. If a second referendum did occur then it would have to include the option to not leave. It makes no sense not to as there has to be an option available at that send of the scale of the deal isn't acceptable to people. Leavers don't like the idea of a second referendum but for purely selfish reasons (they would argue -probably rightly if it was used a soft Brexit situation - that a second ref is being called for to keep us in, but actually I think there is a valid argument in the event of a hard Brexit outcome to negotiations). They won and don't want to repeat the fight. Part of the rationale for leaving was bringing back control, though. This is that in action. I'd suggest two questions. The first being do we accept the deal or not. The second being that if no wins do we leave the EU or remain in the EU. If the deal is closer to what we have now - a soft Brexit - then I don't think a second poll would be needed or worthwhile. I'd expect leave to win. It's purely for a hard Brexit which would be in stark contrast to the promises of vote leave.
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 7 minutes ago, bovril said: For sure. There are plenty of precedents. Ordinary folk feel they have been left behind by the establishment so lash out at the establishment. It's Corbyn's best hope too, let's face it.
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 3 hours ago, Buce said: Do you think they still would have voted that way had they realised that they were going to bear the brunt of the economic downturn, as predicted? With all due respect, that statement is pure supposition in both cases, and as such, is totally irrelevant. Personally I have not encountered one person, including myself, who would have changed their vote. Fact, not assumption, is paramount, The biggest problem imo, is the uncertainty surrounding Brexit, and not Brexit itself, mainly caused by those against it, muddying the waters, who can't accept that the country voted to leave. I respect your views, but only time will uncover the truth.
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 10 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: With all due respect, that statement is pure supposition in both cases, and as such, is totally irrelevant. Personally I have not encountered one person, including myself, who would have changed their vote. Fact, not assumption, is paramount, The biggest problem imo, is the uncertainty surrounding Brexit, and not Brexit itself, mainly caused by those against it, muddying the waters, who can't accept that the country voted to leave. I respect your views, but only time will uncover the truth. The thing is this same argument is actually the reason we remainers are having such a hard time with this. As you say, fact is an important. The reality is, however, that there are no facts which would support any of vote leaves claims. They are all based in hopes. Essentially, you hope that the outcome will be beneficial and are taking a punt that it will be. That was your right, of course, but I struggle with the idea that my daughter's future has been gambled. Particularly when the bet has been placed on the side with no real expert support. With respect to the muddying of the waters, I really think the remainer complaints are a sideshow and the real muddying is by a government who can't even decide what it wants for fear of collapsing, let alone admitting what it wants to the people.
Buce Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 41 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: With all due respect, that statement is pure supposition in both cases, and as such, is totally irrelevant. Personally I have not encountered one person, including myself, who would have changed their vote. Fact, not assumption, is paramount, The biggest problem imo, is the uncertainty surrounding Brexit, and not Brexit itself, mainly caused by those against it, muddying the waters, who can't accept that the country voted to leave. I respect your views, but only time will uncover the truth. I know of a few who very much regret their vote to leave (I don't know them personally but they are colleagues of my wife). How representative that would be, I don't know. I would at the very least like to see a second referendum once we see the terms of Brexit. I know you are firmly in the Leave camp but (no offence intended) you are of an age where the consequences will have little effect on you either way, but I have a teenage daughter and her future very much concerns me.
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Buce said: I know of a few who very much regret their vote to leave (I don't know them personally but they are colleagues of my wife). How representative that would be, I don't know. I would at the very least like to see a second referendum once we see the terms of Brexit. I know you are firmly in the Leave camp but (no offence intended) you are of an age where the consequences will have little effect on you either way, but I have a teenage daughter and her future very much concerns me. This is what gets me. I had an argument with my retired Brexit backing dad. He was banging on about fishing rights. I pointed out that virtually every economist thinks that winning back fishing rights (he knows no sea fishermen) would likely cost jobs. He said he didn't care. He has two kids and four grandchildren. Somehow fishing rights are more important that our futures. A whole generation has lost their heads. Edited 9 February 2018 by Guest
Buce Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: This is what gets me. I had an argument with my retired Brexit backing dad. He was banging on about fishing rights. I pointed out that virtually every economist thinks that winning back fishing rights (he knows no sea fishermen) would likely cost jobs. He said he didn't care. He has two kids and four grandchildren. Somehow fishing rights are more important that our futures. A whole generation has lost their heads. My father-in-law voted Leave, and he has since died. How many others won't live to see the mess they helped create?
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 9 February 2018 Author Posted 9 February 2018 @MattP On the Question Time, Leave vs Remain balance - it may be fair to give the Beeb some leeway on this, because the proportion of MP’s in the commons for Leave vs Remain is not 50/50 either. Equally most Conservative contributors post referendum will be backing the party line, meaning they’re representing a Leave position even if they didn’t sit on that side of the fence pre? On a on a separate note - spent some time with Middlesbrough MP Andy McDonald today. Really nice chap, astonishing career, spoke candidily and passionately about what he believed; the type of MP you should back regardless of the colour of the rosette. East Coast line came up naturally - what a mess that is. I asked him if Greyling is like he seems to come across obnoxious the telly... yes. We also agreed you had to be pretty full of yourself to create your own app for constituents to get in touch with you - given the numerous methods there already is.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 9 February 2018 Author Posted 9 February 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: With all due respect, that statement is pure supposition in both cases, and as such, is totally irrelevant. Personally I have not encountered one person, including myself, who would have changed their vote. Fact, not assumption, is paramount, The biggest problem imo, is the uncertainty surrounding Brexit, and not Brexit itself, mainly caused by those against it, muddying the waters, who can't accept that the country voted to leave. I respect your views, but only time will uncover the truth. Given i myself had considered voting the other way on that morning - I’m sure there are a significant majority who are wondering about their choice and what a different path would have looked like. There’s also been numerous opinion polls on the subject that suggest ‘buyers remorse’. Personally - if there is a deal with the EU that means we’re neither out, or really in... I think that’s grounds for a second referendum because no ones voted for that. The big question would be whether there would be 3 options; accept the deal, Leave with no deal, or stay - assuming stay was an option the EU would accept -or just the first 2. I’ve already mentioned, given just the 2 i’d probably vote leave. Given the 3, I don’t know, probably, on balance stay. Edited 9 February 2018 by DJ Barry Hammond
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 It's a bit boring when all the swivel eyed loons are watching Corrie isn't it?
Rogstanley Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 Here’s a video of a typical brexiter to keep us occupied for a while http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43003120
Guest Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Here’s a video of a typical brexiter to keep us occupied for a while http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43003120 Jesus wept. The state of some of our people. I hate seeing these sorts of videos. Makes me ashamed of my country. We go abroad and are invited in like friends. We go abroad and sing songs about ten German bombers. I realise its only a minority but it's why I said recently that I still believe there is a significant racist element in this country. Edited 9 February 2018 by Guest
Innovindil Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Here’s a video of a typical brexiter to keep us occupied for a while http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43003120 I give it a 4/10. Not loud enough, no threatening action, she needed to bang on the glass door or throw something at him. Below average imo.
Buce Posted 9 February 2018 Posted 9 February 2018 37 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Here’s a video of a typical brexiter to keep us occupied for a while http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43003120 I think we can be fairly confident she didn't vote for Brexit. Pretty sure she couldn't spell 'X', never mind read the question. 1
winteriscoming Posted 10 February 2018 Posted 10 February 2018 Fvck me thought qt was bad but the last leg - could they have given the awful emily thornberry an easier ride? Suppose she ticked the boxes, hates trump and she's against brexit.
Guest Posted 10 February 2018 Posted 10 February 2018 7 hours ago, winteriscoming said: Fvck me thought qt was bad but the last leg - could they have given the awful emily thornberry an easier ride? Suppose she ticked the boxes, hates trump and she's against brexit. If you're equating those 2 programmes to be in the same category then you're doing something wrong
Guest Posted 10 February 2018 Posted 10 February 2018 7 hours ago, winteriscoming said: Fvck me thought qt was bad but the last leg - could they have given the awful emily thornberry an easier ride? Suppose she ticked the boxes, hates trump and she's against brexit. It's a comedy programme not Newsnight.
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