Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Look at the state of the leaves you've placed your trust in. Farage, nuttall, Nigel 'climate change isn't real' Lawson.

 

I realise izzard is on the remain team but he's not their equivalent of a political heavy hitter.

Neither Farage, Nuttall or Lawson are in the government Toddy.

Edited 9 February 2018 by MattP

[Buce]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

I voted remain but that is a horrific sweeping generalisation, typical of the views far left out of touch elite.

 

There are many decent people who believe in Brexit, some have very valid reasons to I have heard them, I might not agree but I can understand the way they feel. Some are not thick, or racist or evil tory capitalist ***** like you would believe, they are decent hard working, law abiding citizens who would give you their life.

 

This is why the far left are so utterly abhorrent and disgusting.

 

Only some, then?

 

Which implies that you believe most are.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Only some, then?

 

Which implies that you believe most are.

I am being rational and I am sure that there are some people who's votes may have motivated by certain factors but to be honest that is not up to me to make decisions about them. Of course there are a extreme far right bunch of utterly disgusting individuals whom are extremely racist etc etc etc people like Britain first.

 

That however does not make all Brexit voters the same.

 

Corbyn is a Brexit supporter? is he a racist? He is a **** but I don't think he is a racist.

[RumbleFox]

I voted Remain and I am a ghastly racist, I'm an absolute beast. X  

[bovril]

45 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

I don’t agree. There weren’t a myriad of reasons to vote Leave. There were just three:

• Immigration

• Sovreignity

• Economic advantages of non-membership

 

If you suddenly remove one of these three benefits of Leaving, then the whole result becomes invalid.   

 

This is what happened on the very morning after the vote when Farage said that the £350m claim was bogus.

 

The economic forecasts are totally relevant because they underline the fact that the objectives for leaving are not going to be met – and therefore there is no mandate to leave the EU, and the referendum result is irrelevant. It’s now only being persued for political purposes.

 

There were a myriad of different reasons why Brexit won. In my humble opinion, it became a protest vote against a lot of things people didn't like. Some of them you mention above, but there was similarly a lot of stuff about 'metropolitan elite', post-industrial towns up north that felt left behind, worries about ever-closer union, there are libertarian Brexiters, 'lexiters', etc etc etc. Cameron (aided by Clegg) presided over 6 years of austerity and declining living standards then throws a referendum into the mix. Genius. For a lot of people, Cameron and Clegg are remain. And this, I believe, is one of the main reasons remain lost. They lost because they used the economic argument, not despite it. You're telling people that the economy is going to go to shit when, for a lot of people, it's already gone to shit. 

 

I'm a remainer, but I'm getting extremely frustrated by the pro-EU side. There's so much head-in-the-sandery it's incredible. You can tell people til you're blue in the face that immigrants aren't going to steal their jobs, but as long as living standards keep declining, it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. 

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

 

There were a myriad of different reasons why Brexit won. In my humble opinion, it became a protest vote against a lot of things people didn't like. Some of them you mention above, but there was similarly a lot of stuff about 'metropolitan elite', post-industrial towns up north that felt left behind, worries about ever-closer union, there are libertarian Brexiters, 'lexiters', etc etc etc. Cameron (aided by Clegg) presided over 6 years of austerity and declining living standards then throws a referendum into the mix. Genius. For a lot of people, Cameron and Clegg are remain. And this, I believe, is one of the main reasons remain lost. They lost because they used the economic argument, not despite it. You're telling people that the economy is going to go to shit when, for a lot of people, it's already gone to shit. 

 

I'm a remainer, but I'm getting extremely frustrated by the pro-EU side. There's so much head-in-the-sandery it's incredible. You can tell people til you're blue in the face that immigrants aren't going to steal their jobs, but as long as living standards keep declining, it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. 

 

Do you think they still would have voted that way had they realised that they were going to bear the brunt of the economic downturn, as predicted?

[RumbleFox]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

 

There were a myriad of different reasons why Brexit won. In my humble opinion, it became a protest vote against a lot of things people didn't like. Some of them you mention above, but there was similarly a lot of stuff about 'metropolitan elite', post-industrial towns up north that felt left behind, worries about ever-closer union, there are libertarian Brexiters, 'lexiters', etc etc etc. Cameron (aided by Clegg) presided over 6 years of austerity and declining living standards then throws a referendum into the mix. Genius. For a lot of people, Cameron and Clegg are remain. And this, I believe, is one of the main reasons remain lost. They lost because they used the economic argument, not despite it. You're telling people that the economy is going to go to shit when, for a lot of people, it's already gone to shit. 

 

I'm a remainer, but I'm getting extremely frustrated by the pro-EU side. There's so much head-in-the-sandery it's incredible. You can tell people til you're blue in the face that immigrants aren't going to steal their jobs, but as long as living standards keep declining, it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. 

This.  I agree fully.  I voted remain and I feel sick that we are leaving but I acknowledge that a lot of the blame lies at our own feet.  People actually do not care about facts.  I honestly don't think people mind if every single forecast is negative for a post-Brexit future.  What is most important to people is how they feel - perceptions seem to be more important than facts.  I honestly think the best thing we can do is actually listen to peope and have a dialogue with them.  But, you know, listening and being reasonable are seen as weaknesses. X

[RumbleFox]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Do you think they still would have voted that way had they realised that they were going to bear the brunt of the economic downturn, as predicted?

Unfortunately I think they would.  X

[bovril]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Do you think they still would have voted that way had they realised that they were going to bear the brunt of the economic downturn, as predicted?

Possibly not as many. But I think firstly there was a sense of 'fvck it, things are bad already' and secondly people have become incredibly cynical about the government and economists. What's 'good for the economy' is quite clearly not what's good for everyone in the country.

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

This.  I agree fully.  I voted remain and I feel sick that we are leaving but I acknowledge that a lot of the blame lies at our own feet.  People actually do not care about facts.  I honestly don't think people mind if every single forecast is negative for a post-Brexit future.  What is most important to people is how they feel - perceptions seem to be more important than facts.  I honestly think the best thing we can do is actually listen to peope and have a dialogue with them.  But, you know, listening and being reasonable are seen as weaknesses. X

Don't agree. Just that it's hard to care about 'impending economic doom' after six years of austerity.

 

We need to move beyond this notion that people were duped. They weren't. 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

This.  I agree fully.  I voted remain and I feel sick that we are leaving but I acknowledge that a lot of the blame lies at our own feet.  People actually do not care about facts.  I honestly don't think people mind if every single forecast is negative for a post-Brexit future.  What is most important to people is how they feel - perceptions seem to be more important than facts.  I honestly think the best thing we can do is actually listen to peope and have a dialogue with them.  But, you know, listening and being reasonable are seen as weaknesses. X

 

Personally, I think our politicians should grasp the nettle and reverse the decision to leave - the referendum was an advisory and not binding. An overwhelming number of the people we elect and pay to make decisions for us can see what a disaster awaits.

 

Sometimes, people need protecting from themselves.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Personally, I think our politicians should grasp the nettle and reverse the decision to leave - the referendum was an advisory and not binding. An overwhelming number of the people we elect and pay to make decisions for us can see what a disaster awaits.

 

Sometimes, people need protecting from themselves.

 

Unless you're talking about decisions that affect every single human on the planet and therefore mutual self-interest is very clear, that is a pretty dangerous road to start down.

[RumbleFox]

5 minutes ago, bovril said:

Don't agree. Just that it's hard to care about 'impending economic doom' after six years of austerity.

 

We need to move beyond this notion that people were duped. They weren't. 

I don't think people were duped at all, I think you misunderstood.  I think people just chose to believe what they want (and I mean both sides here).  Human's are odd, everyone thinks they will win the lottery at 14 million to one yet think cancer, at 3/1, will happen to someone else.  I just think people felt a bit lost and voted Brexit, as you say, partly as a protest against what they see as some kind of metropolitan elite and partly in an attempt to regain some intangible sense of themselves that they feel they are losing.  I don't think people were duped at all, I was simply saying that facts are easily ignored in favour of feelings.

Edited 9 February 2018 by RumbleFox

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

I don't think people were duped at all, I think you misunderstood.  I think people just chose to believe what they want (and I mean both sides here).  Human's are odd, everyone thinks they will win the lottery at 14 million to one yet think cancer, at 3/1, will happen to someone else.  I just think people felt a bit lost and voted Brexit, as you say, partly as a protest against what they see as some kind of metropolitan elite and partly in an attempt to regain some intangible sense of themselves that they feel they are losing.  I don't think people were duped at all, I was simply saying that facts are easily ignored in favour of feelings.

 

The politics of past, present and future in a nutshell.

 

People don't want to hear about the difficulties of the future, as factual as they may be. What they really want is the reassurance that tomorrow will be just like today.

 

(The problem, of course, being that one day it won't be.)

[Fox Ulike]

31 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I voted remain but that is a horrific sweeping generalisation, typical of the views far left out of touch elite.

 

There are many decent people who believe in Brexit, some have very valid reasons to I have heard them, I might not agree but I can understand the way they feel. Some are not thick, or racist or evil tory capitalist ***** like you would believe, they are decent hard working, law abiding citizens who would give you their life.

 

This is why the far left are so utterly abhorrent and disgusting.

 

You've gone feral.

 

Just to recap, what I said was: There just aren't many respectable public people who actually believe in Brexit.

 

And you think that this is 'horrific'. And you think that I am 'abhorrent' and 'disgusting' for saying it. You also infer that I am out-of-touch, far-left, and part of some undefined 'elite'.

 

The words you use are ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately though it's all too typical of the level to which the debate about Brexit has sunk.

 

All I'll actually say to the part of your post that isn't feral; is that I think you have ignored the word "public" in my statement. I'm not referring to any of the people who you valiantly seek to defend, rather the limited set of self-serving opportunistic public figures who have backed Brexit as a way to climb a career ladder of their own.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

17 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

I don't think people were duped at all, I think you misunderstood.  I think people just chose to believe what they want (and I mean both sides here).  Human's are odd, everyone thinks they will win the lottery at 14 million to one yet think cancer, at 3/1, will happen to someone else.  I just think people felt a bit lost and voted Brexit, as you say, partly as a protest against what they see as some kind of metropolitan elite and partly in an attempt to regain some intangible sense of themselves that they feel they are losing.  I don't think people were duped at all, I was simply saying that facts are easily ignored in favour of feelings.

I largely agree. People in areas like Stoke are sick of the status quo they want change. They wont listen to the elite telling them things, they have been told stuff by the elite for years and it has all been shit so why would Brexit be any different. I can completely understand where they are coming from and I have my own significant doubts about the way the EU works but I think overall the benefits outweigh the negatives. Of course that is just my opinion it could well be horse shit!

Edited 9 February 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Unless you're talking about decisions that affect every single human on the planet and therefore mutual self-interest is very clear, that is a pretty dangerous road to start down.

 

Not at all - governments make unpopular decisions 'for the good of the country' all the time.

[Alf Bentley]

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Personally, I think our politicians should grasp the nettle and reverse the decision to leave - the referendum was an advisory and not binding. An overwhelming number of the people we elect and pay to make decisions for us can see what a disaster awaits.

 

Sometimes, people need protecting from themselves.

 

Much as I'd like to see the decision reversed, I disagree with this suggestion.

Politicians reversing the decision would massively increase cynicism towards the democratic process, which is already far too high. It would also probably cause significant civil unrest, sooner or later.

 

For the decision to be reversed, there would need to be a clear popular vote either in another referendum or in a general election focusing on Brexit. The political reality is that no such referendum/election will be called unless the govt thinks that such a sea-change in public opinion has already occurred (unlikely) or unless the govt collapses because either they cannot agree a position on Brexit or any deal negotiated with the EU is rejected by parliament (a possibility).

 

Your points hold as an argument against putting the issue to a referendum....but it's a bit late for that - and I was one of those who favoured a referendum, in the naive hope that issues for and against the EU would finally get a proper airing and people would vote with an improved knowledge of the pros and cons. Instead we got a shamefully poor, cynical, often dishonest campaign by both sides, and people voted on feelings about their lives as Bovril and Rumble suggest, in their different ways.

 

One way or another, if people are reading history books in 100 years time, they'll be reading about Cameron as the worst PM of all time, I think.

Edited 9 February 2018 by Alf Bentley

[Guest Foxin_mad]

5 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

You've gone feral.

 

Just to recap, what I said was: There just aren't many respectable public people who actually believe in Brexit.

 

And you think that this is 'horrific'. And you think that I am 'abhorrent' and 'disgusting' for saying it. You also infer that I am out-of-touch, far-left, and part of some undefined 'elite'.

 

The words you use are ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately though it's all too typical of the level to which the debate about Brexit has sunk.

 

All I'll actually say to the part of your post that isn't feral; is that I think you have ignored the word "public" in my statement. I'm not referring to any of the people who you valiantly seek to defend, rather the limited set of self-serving opportunistic public figures who have backed Brexit as a way to climb a career ladder of their own.

Ok I apologise I did actually miss read the public part.  I am not sure though to be honest there are that many decent public remainers either. What is the definition of decent in this case?

 

Most people in the limelight are by definition attention seeking *****.

 

There are many self serving opportunistic public figure backing remain also.

Edited 9 February 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Rogstanley]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Not at all - governments make unpopular decisions 'for the good of the country' all the time.

Which is fundamentally the purpose of having a representative rather than direct democracy.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Not at all - governments make unpopular decisions 'for the good of the country' all the time.

Absolutely, but IMO apart from policy guaranteed to affect all humanity rather than just one subset of it I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Flirts too much with authoritarianism for me.

[Fox Ulike]

31 minutes ago, bovril said:

 

There were a myriad of different reasons why Brexit won. In my humble opinion, it became a protest vote against a lot of things people didn't like. Some of them you mention above, but there was similarly a lot of stuff about 'metropolitan elite', post-industrial towns up north that felt left behind, worries about ever-closer union, there are libertarian Brexiters, 'lexiters', etc etc etc. Cameron (aided by Clegg) presided over 6 years of austerity and declining living standards then throws a referendum into the mix. Genius. For a lot of people, Cameron and Clegg are remain. And this, I believe, is one of the main reasons remain lost. They lost because they used the economic argument, not despite it. You're telling people that the economy is going to go to shit when, for a lot of people, it's already gone to shit. 

 

I'm a remainer, but I'm getting extremely frustrated by the pro-EU side. There's so much head-in-the-sandery it's incredible. You can tell people til you're blue in the face that immigrants aren't going to steal their jobs, but as long as living standards keep declining, it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. 

OK but we're talking about slightly different things.. I was talking about actual reasons to leave the EU whereas you're talking about why people might have voted Leave.

 

 For example, a protest vote or a perception of a 'metropolitan elite' isn't a reason to leave the EU.  Brexit isn't going to change any of these things. People's feelings about these things were simply hijacked by opportunistic career politicians like Gove and Johnson.

 

I think that right now the focus should be on whether Brexit is actually going to deliver what people voted for. It's not. It's going to make us all a bit worse off.

 

No-one voted for that.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said:

OK but we're talking about slightly different things.. I was talking about actual reasons to leave the EU whereas you're talking about why people might have voted Leave.

 

 For example, a protest vote or a perception of a 'metropolitan elite' isn't a reason to leave the EU.  Brexit isn't going to change any of these things. People's feelings about these things were simply hijacked by opportunistic career politicians like Gove and Johnson.

 

I think that right now the focus should be on whether Brexit is actually going to deliver what people voted for. It's not. It's going to make us all a bit worse off.

 

No-one voted for that.

Evidently it is. Just not a good one, imo. 

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

Not at all - governments make unpopular decisions 'for the good of the country' all the time.

The government sent us all a leaflet saying they will implement the decision we take. The have to be held to account on that otherwise we'll have a constitutional crisis we haven't seen for centuries. 

 

If Brexit was going to be so bad (although DC himself even acknowledges now it hasn't been as bad as thought) then the irresponsibility was having the referendum in the first place.

 

If people wanted the decision reversed they had that chance last year by voting for the Liberal Democrats, SNP or the Greens - 85% of the electorate voted for parties that had it in their manifesto to implement the result - you had the chance to cancel Brexit.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

OK but we're talking about slightly different things.. I was talking about actual reasons to leave the EU whereas you're talking about why people might have voted Leave.

 

 For example, a protest vote or a perception of a 'metropolitan elite' isn't a reason to leave the EU.  Brexit isn't going to change any of these things. People's feelings about these things were simply hijacked by opportunistic career politicians like Gove and Johnson.

 

I think that right now the focus should be on whether Brexit is actually going to deliver what people voted for. It's not. It's going to make us all a bit worse off.

 

No-one voted for that.

We don't actually know what we are going to get or what it is going to deliver yet though. This is the problem.

 

We have theories and predictions based on the reality of nothing yet. Once we have an idea of what the deal is if any we will have a better idea. Many of the predictions are based on a worse case scenario which could happen but equally might not.

 

I think some people here are getting to buried in their own agendas and self pity and actually missing the real facts! We don't have a clue what is going to happen yet!

 

A vote has been had, a narrow win was achieved by one side, you may disagree but we need to now se what is on the table. We don't know yet.

 

The metropolitan elite is a perfectly good reason for some people to vote leave because, they have been let down by the elite for years. For example in the fishing towns in the north east, fishing quotas have decimated jobs. In Stoke clean air rules have decimated jobs, in farming quotas have caused problems. The unelected people in Brussels have in their eyes caused these problems, they want answers. Perhaps the EU was the wrong outlet but they do have many significant problems they fail to address. Having odious cretins like Junker and co doesn't help them.

Edited 9 February 2018 by Foxin_mad