Guest Foxin_mad Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: It's an incontrovertible fact that the Earth's resources are limited. However, right now I'm not buying the Malthusian line and saying that we've reached a tipping point in terms of space, resources and capital (the last is, after all, an entirely human construct anyway) - not yet, not with a world population much bigger than this, I don't think. I think the issue is with logistics, rather than resources themselves. Think, for instance, how much food is transported across the world and then wasted because it isn't bought and isn't permitted to be then given away? How much oil, gas and coal is spent generating energy either for entirely unnecessary purposes or when a renewable alternative exists that costs less in terms of resources in the long run? How much space is available in the heartlands of the US and in other places for people to live, and how much living space does a human really need, in any case? And those are just three examples. Honestly, for me, the problem lies not with the amount of resources, but access to them and logistics for delivery of them - and that is a purely human, greed-based, self-interested problem. Those barriers are entirely artificial. Humanity quite frankly, needs to become more ingenious (not that there isn't a lot of that already), more efficient, and maybe, just maybe...a little less self-interested. But it can. I agree with what you say about logistics and waste here completely, there is work to be done here. I am not sure how capable humans are at becoming less selfish, we most likely have an inbuilt ability to survive at all costs, to be better and stronger than our competitors. That is exhibited in all species, and we are after all just another species. Can we overcome that inbuilt function? I don't know. I tend to feel that is why we always end up with some greedy rich person at the helm even in Socialist experiments.
Webbo Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 I read a few years ago that the population is expected to peak around 9 billion, it's 7 billion + atm. Personally I'm optimistic about the future. technology will always evolve and improve our lives. graphene can be used to filter the salt out of seawater. Desalination means we'll be able to irrigate the deserts. Just one of many advances that will improve life on earth. No need for all this misanthropia , we're going to be fine.
Guest Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 14 minutes ago, Webbo said: Only in murder, poverty and oppression. Pretty unlikely.
Alf Bentley Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: The workshy bastard never foresaw people having to pay to see his grave. I think he worked pretty hard on his writing, to be fair - though I'm sure you wouldn't see it as work benefiting humanity. I'd recommend the biography of Marx that Francis Wheen wrote some years ago. Entertaining tales of Marx allegedly getting the housekeeper up the duff, suffering plagues of boils on his bum and being chased drunk through the streets of London by the police...
Guest Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 Just now, Webbo said: I read a few years ago that the population is expected to peak around 9 billion, it's 7 billion + atm. Personally I'm optimistic about the future. technology will always evolve and improve our lives. graphene can be used to filter the salt out of seawater. Desalination means we'll be able to irrigate the deserts. Just one of many advances that will improve life on earth. No need for all this misanthropia , we're going to be fine. Pie in the sky. And scientist will tell you that the tools to fight climate change with tech do not exist and are unlikely to exist in anything like the timeframe required. Stopping the use of carbon producing fuels asap is an absolute necessity.
Webbo Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Pretty unlikely. I'd say an absolute certainty based on facts. If marxism is the future then I'm sure the comunist party will get lots of votes at the next election.
Webbo Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Pie in the sky. And scientist will tell you that the tools to fight climate change with tech do not exist and are unlikely to exist in anything like the timeframe required. Stopping the use of carbon producing fuels asap is an absolute necessity. Have you got a car Toddy? Central heating?
leicsmac Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I agree with what you say about logistics and waste here completely, there is work to be done here. I am not sure how capable humans are at becoming less selfish, we most likely have an inbuilt ability to survive at all costs, to be better and stronger than our competitors. That is exhibited in all species, and we are after all just another species. Can we overcome that inbuilt function? I don't know. I tend to feel that is why we always end up with some greedy rich person at the helm even in Socialist experiments. This is something I've thought about a lot too and mentioned on here more than once. The USSR, North Korea and China under the Communist Party all had (and have) one figurehead at the top calling the shots, which doesn't sound much like equality to me. Perhaps that inbuilt instinct can't be overcome, as much as we know it exists. Perhaps we are nothing more than slaves to our evolutionary instinct. But I'd like to believe that isn't the case. Only time will tell. 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: I read a few years ago that the population is expected to peak around 9 billion, it's 7 billion + atm. Personally I'm optimistic about the future. technology will always evolve and improve our lives. graphene can be used to filter the salt out of seawater. Desalination means we'll be able to irrigate the deserts. Just one of many advances that will improve life on earth. No need for all this misanthropia , we're going to be fine. Just now, toddybad said: Pie in the sky. And scientist will tell you that the tools to fight climate change with tech do not exist and are unlikely to exist in anything like the timeframe required. Stopping the use of carbon producing fuels asap is an absolute necessity. Though estimates for the upper limit of human population vary pretty wildly on what model you adhere to (anything from 9 to around 20 billion max), I'm with Webs on this one. Humans are capable of coming up with game-changing technological ideas over a relatively small space of time if the need is seen to be there. The only problem is whether that need will become apparent in a timely enough fashion to enough people that we still have enough time to mitigate the changes when they arrive. And yes, coal, gas, and oil as a form of generating power on any big scale (not smaller scale and other uses, I hasten to add) needs to go right quick.
Buce Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: This is something I've thought about a lot too and mentioned on here more than once. The USSR, North Korea and China under the Communist Party all had (and have) one figurehead at the top calling the shots, which doesn't sound much like equality to me. Perhaps that inbuilt instinct can't be overcome, as much as we know it exists. Perhaps we are nothing more than slaves to our evolutionary instinct. But I'd like to believe that isn't the case. Only time will tell. Though estimates for the upper limit of human population vary pretty wildly on what model you adhere to (anything from 9 to around 20 billion max), I'm with Webs on this one. Humans are capable of coming up with game-changing technological ideas over a relatively small space of time if the need is seen to be there. The only problem is whether that need will become apparent in a timely enough fashion to enough people that we still have enough time to mitigate the changes when they arrive. And yes, coal, gas, and oil as a form of generating power on any big scale (not smaller scale and other uses, I hasten to add) needs to go right quick. 2 The Elites don't have the motive to continue to support large populations for very much longer - they only ever needed the masses to fight their wars and run their mines/factories/farms etc. Advances in robotics will put paid to that need sooner rather than later.
Guest MattP Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I think he worked pretty hard on his writing, to be fair - though I'm sure you wouldn't see it as work benefiting humanity. I'd recommend the biography of Marx that Francis Wheen wrote some years ago. Entertaining tales of Marx allegedly getting the housekeeper up the duff, suffering plagues of boils on his bum and being chased drunk through the streets of London by the police... That does actually sound interesting, almost a biography of us two in our younger years I'll get that next time I do a bulk order, I must have 200 books to read at the minute. I will get around to your post eventually by the way, just quite busy at the minute - Although I could say it doesn't matter as if this government fails I'll just vote Labour next time as they'll do a deal giving me everything I want regarding trade, court jurisdiction, immigration etc all whilst staying in!
Guest MattP Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Webbo said: I read a few years ago that the population is expected to peak around 9 billion, it's 7 billion + atm. Personally I'm optimistic about the future. technology will always evolve and improve our lives. graphene can be used to filter the salt out of seawater. Desalination means we'll be able to irrigate the deserts. Just one of many advances that will improve life on earth. No need for all this misanthropia , we're going to be fine. Probably right. I'm sure the theories about the end of humanity have been around for centuries and they have never got it right yet. If we told people back in 1500 we would have 6billion on the planet they wouldn't even be able to get their head around it, let alone believe it. Yet we continue to develop, educate and eridicate poverty to an incredible level. A breaking point comes eventually obviously, but its not going to be in any of our lifetimes. Edited 7 June 2018 by MattP
leicsmac Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Buce said: The Elites don't have the motive to continue to support large populations for very much longer - they only ever needed the masses to fight their wars and run their mines/factories/farms etc. Advances in robotics will put paid to that need sooner rather than later. Following that train of thought to its logical conclusion does indeed end in a very dark and dreadful place. However, keeping my optimist hat on here, I'm going to say that for practical reasons (machines won't be able to upkeep civilisation for the elites in the same way that humans could and/or full-on rebellion), what is envisioned here would, hopefully, not come to pass. 14 minutes ago, MattP said: Probably right. I'm sure the theories about the end of humanity have been around for centuries and they have never got it right yet. If we told people back in 1500 we would have 6billion on the planet they wouldn't even be able to get their head around it, let alone believe it. Yet we continue to develop, educate and eridicate poverty to an incredible level. A breaking point comes eventually obviously, but its not going to be in any of our lifetimes. That's right, there have been so many theories, and thus far humanity has continued to keep on...keeping on, really. The only problem is that those who espouse the aforementioned theories only have to be right once, so it is best to be vigilant and not complacent about how much effort is needed to keep civilisation running. Edited 7 June 2018 by leicsmac
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 7 June 2018 Author Posted 7 June 2018 (edited) My word this has gone deep? Can we not just argue who won out of DD and TM and conclude that both are losers? And can the Brexit supporting side agree... this government and its negotiating position is an absolute shambles right now? Edited 7 June 2018 by DJ Barry Hammond 1
Sharpe's Fox Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 The solution lies within the hearts and minds of the working class. Only through strength of democracy can we break from the shackles of the parasites that steal and exploit our wealth.
Webbo Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 2 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: My word this has gone deep? Can we just not argue who won out of DD and TM and conclude that both are losers? And can the Brexit supporting side agree... this government and its negotiating position is an absolute shambles right now? It's what happens when you have a minority govt, an opportunistic opposition and the establishment working against you. It's all going to come to head eventually.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 19 minutes ago, leicsmac said: However, keeping my optimist hat on here, I'm going to say that for practical reasons (machines won't be able to upkeep civilisation for the elites in the same way that humans could and/or full-on rebellion), what is envisioned here would, hopefully, not come to pass. I would say that is likely to be true. Computers and robots are unlikely to be able to quite offer the self gratifying service that many of the elite have come to expect. There will always be demand for people to program robots, fix faulty robots etc. etc.. Obviously the networks and infrastructure to support them. All potentially good for my business! I am not sure the service industry can ever be reliably automated. Sometimes you can not beat a personal service.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 7 June 2018 Author Posted 7 June 2018 9 minutes ago, Webbo said: It's what happens when you have a minority govt, an opportunistic opposition and the establishment working against you. It's all going to come to head eventually. When has the establishment worked for anyone but themselves? By the very term, should we expect them to be any different in nature? 1
Buce Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I would say that is likely to be true. Computers and robots are unlikely to be able to quite offer the self gratifying service that many of the elite have come to expect. There will always be demand for people to program robots, fix faulty robots etc. etc.. Obviously the networks and infrastructure to support them. All potentially good for my business! I am not sure the service industry can ever be reliably automated. Sometimes you can not beat a personal service. We are already on the brink of AI that can design and build new AI - fixing faulty ones is a logical progression.
leicsmac Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 8 minutes ago, Buce said: We are already on the brink of AI that can design and build new AI - fixing faulty ones is a logical progression. If that development then turns out to be hostile then the elites will be as screwed as everyone else - every meatbag will be a target.
Izzy Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 25 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I would say that is likely to be true. Computers and robots are unlikely to be able to quite offer the self gratifying service that many of the elite have come to expect. There will always be demand for people to program robots, fix faulty robots etc. etc.. Obviously the networks and infrastructure to support them. All potentially good for my business! I am not sure the service industry can ever be reliably automated. Sometimes you can not beat a personal service. I don't care how good AI becomes, it'll never replace escorts, massage parlors and prostitutes 1
Buce Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 4 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: I don't care how good AI becomes, it'll never replace escorts, massage parlors and prostitutes Already on the way, bro: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-sex-robots-are-coming
Buce Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 6 minutes ago, leicsmac said: If that development then turns out to be hostile then the elites will be as screwed as everyone else - every meatbag will be a target. https://thenextweb.com/artificial-intelligence/2018/03/29/ai-touch-myself-scientists-create-self-replicating-neural-network/ https://qz.com/1153683/telling-ai-to-not-replicate-itself-is-like-telling-teenagers-to-just-not-have-sex/
Guest MattP Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: My word this has gone deep? Can we not just argue who won out of DD and TM and conclude that both are losers? And can the Brexit supporting side agree... this government and its negotiating position is an absolute shambles right now? Always going to happen as soon as the election returned a minority gov. She wanted such a large majority to give herself the option of soft or hard Brexit through parliament. Still makes no sense she denied guys like Dan Hannan into parliament, clearly wanted as many "vote with the whip" politicians as possible. I'm just thankful Corbyn is in charge of the opposition who need to be out as well to implement their policy now or we'd probably now be looking at a parliamentary majority to staying in the customs union and maybe even single market. Which would be the most pointless piece of government action I've ever seen. My side should have achieved it's aim via a general election rather than a referendum, it would have changed the parties had we attempted to so that as well instead of then being do out of touch with the public on the issue. Edited 7 June 2018 by MattP
leicsmac Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 20 minutes ago, Buce said: https://thenextweb.com/artificial-intelligence/2018/03/29/ai-touch-myself-scientists-create-self-replicating-neural-network/ https://qz.com/1153683/telling-ai-to-not-replicate-itself-is-like-telling-teenagers-to-just-not-have-sex/ Yeah, I'm not disagreeing about the advancement (it's clearly there), I'm throwing out the point that should a self-perpetuating AI decide it wants to run the show it won't single out some humans for survival simply because they had more money and power before it came about. It will be very, very non-discriminatory.
Izzy Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 29 minutes ago, Buce said: Already on the way, bro: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-sex-robots-are-coming Holy smoke
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