Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 27 minutes ago, MattP said: Two questions for those who support a second referendum? 1. Why should I believe that those who refuse to respect the result of the first referendum would then decide to respect the second one if it went to leave again? It would have more validity - the electorate is now far more aware of the consequences of Brexit, and the lies have been exposed. 27 minutes ago, MattP said: 2. When would the third referendum be? As soon as the electorate came to its senses and demanded one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 (edited) https://i.gyazo.com/efb537b383350cb91cd50cca26f6459c.png Daily Express going #notallBrexitvoters. Perhaps this particular paper doth protest too much? Edit: And apparently Mandelson was referring to "some" Brexit voters in that way, as per the article. So...how is that not in any way true? Edited 31 July 2018 by leicsmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 1 hour ago, toddybad said: Perhaps. The fact the tory quislings bottled it in the face of a possible vote of confidence/general election, putting party before country, has put the anti Brexit fight in parliament on the back foot somewhat. You have to assume those people would vote for a deal as they didn't your with their conscience last time. The fact is that parliamentarians don't really support Brexit though. They're still doing it because they have to do it. If no deal looks likely (and let's be honest may will try to conceded everything to avoid that so long as she can spin the concessions as not concessions) then it'll be hard for mps to accept. Besides, despite remainer moaning, we've embarked on two years of negotiations. Leavers have had two years to give us a viable plan and have failed. Vote leave campaigned of a ticket of getting a good deal, not no deal. Most Brexiters were talking about the Norway option during the campaign but now claim that would be something in opposition to the will of the people. If public opinion significantly shifts against Brexit, is it genuinely democratic to force it through without the public having the right to confirm it's wishes? I’m not against a second referendum, I just think it’s fanciful that TM would put her deal to the people. Nothing she has done so far in tenure would lead me to believe she would take that chance. If we are to get a say, she will be gone imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 17 minutes ago, Buce said: What exactly is anti-semitic about any of that? Does being Jewish give protected status from criticism now? He's stood on a stage, telling an outright lie and using the religion to push that lie. No one I've seen complaining about anti-semitism in the party is a Jewish Trump supporter. He's just made it up and inferred they are Jewish to try and justify his own bigotry. If I said climate change was down to "black enviromentalists" I'd quite rightly be pulled up as racist for trying to make capital out of the race element within a lie. 11 minutes ago, Buce said: It would have more validity - the electorate is now far more aware of the consequences of Brexit, and the lies have been exposed. Which lies? The ones from Remain (immediate job losses, emergency budget, back of the queue etc) or Leave? (Turkey, NHS) Fact is we still don't know, the government, the press, the rich and the establishment have done everything they can to crush the idea of Brexit, the public might just see through this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 2 minutes ago, MattP said: He's stood on a stage, telling an outright lie and using the religion to push that lie. No one I've seen complaining about anti-semitism in the party is a Jewish Trump supporter. He's just made it up and inferred they are Jewish to try and justify his own bigotry. 1 Is it an outright lie (genuine question)? Did he not offer evidence to support the assertion? 2 minutes ago, MattP said: Which lies? The ones from Remain (immediate job losses, emergency budget, back of the queue etc) or Leave? (Turkey, NHS) All of the above. 2 minutes ago, MattP said: Fact is we still don't know, the government, the press, the rich and the establishment have done everything they can to crush the idea of Brexit, the public might just see through this. All the more reason to have a second referendum, then, to test your hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 17 minutes ago, Buce said: It would have more validity - the electorate is now far more aware of the consequences of Brexit, and the lies have been exposed. As soon as the electorate came to its senses and demanded one. I think the are more aware but only of how complex it is as for the consequences I think that's a massive unknown there's so much guess work, individuals/businesses providing misinformation as it suits themselves. Every possible scenario has so many unknown consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, Buce said: Is it an outright lie (genuine question)? Did he not offer evidence to support the assertion? All of the above. All the more reason to have a second referendum, then, to test your hypothesis. A 2nd referendum will still produce lies, threats and unknown consequences. If people want a different out come they should be calling for a general election and make every candidate state clearly what the are standing on and let the people vote and let parliament decide as they should have done in the 1st place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, davieG said: I think the are more aware but only of how complex it is as for the consequences I think that's a massive unknown there's so much guess work, individuals/businesses providing misinformation as it suits themselves. Every possible scenario has so many unknown consequences. Anybody who is saying that a 'no deal' scenario will be anything other than a disaster is the Brexit equivalent of a flat-earther. Let the public decide whether they trust the overwhelming majority of experts or a handful of fanatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 2 minutes ago, davieG said: I think the are more aware but only of how complex it is as for the consequences I think that's a massive unknown there's so much guess work, individuals/businesses providing misinformation as it suits themselves. Every possible scenario has so many unknown consequences. 2 And there is the inherent problem with direct democracy of this type, as much as direct democracy is the theoretical ideal form of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, Buce said: Is it an outright lie (genuine question)? Did he not offer evidence to support the assertion? How many of the Labour MP's protesting the anti-semitism do you think are Jewish Trump supporters? There isn't even one of them in the PLP. No evidence offered at all, it was just a rant. It's weird more than anything - https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/bombshell-recording-proves-corbyn-ally-blamed-jewish-trump-fantatics-for-false-antisemitism-clai-1.467802 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 2 minutes ago, davieG said: A 2nd referendum will still produce lies, threats and unknown consequences. If people want a different out come they should be calling for a general election and make every candidate state clearly what the are standing on and let the people vote and let parliament decide as they should have done in the 1st place. I don't disagree with that but the problem I see is that elections are not fought on single issues; for example, I would be inclined to vote Labour/Remain - what do I do if the Tories happen to be the 'Remain' party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, MattP said: How many of the Labour MP's protesting the anti-semitism do you think are Jewish Trump supporters? There isn't even one of them in the PLP. No evidence offered at all, it was just a rant. It's weird more than anything - https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/bombshell-recording-proves-corbyn-ally-blamed-jewish-trump-fantatics-for-false-antisemitism-clai-1.467802 It just shows how stark raving bonkers the ruling classes within the Labour party are now! This is the kind of thing that shows what a dangerous group Corbyn and his bunch of 'supporters' are, its disappointing to see so many decent moderate Labour voters burying their head in the sand and letting this complete nutcase run amok in their party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: How many of the Labour MP's protesting the anti-semitism do you think are Jewish Trump supporters? There isn't even one of them in the PLP. No evidence offered at all, it was just a rant. It's weird more than anything - https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/bombshell-recording-proves-corbyn-ally-blamed-jewish-trump-fantatics-for-false-antisemitism-clai-1.467802 Fair enough - a statement like that should be supported by evidence or not made at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 1 minute ago, Buce said: I don't disagree with that but the problem I see is that elections are not fought on single issues; for example, I would be inclined to vote Labour/Remain - what do I do if the Tories happen to be the 'Remain' party? That's why needed a Brexit party to stand at a GE rather than a referendum in the first place.Stand on a manifesto of invoking article 50 and then calling another General Election so the public can decides who do it. Do it next time and throw in abolishing the House or Lords as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, Buce said: I don't disagree with that but the problem I see is that elections are not fought on single issues; for example, I would be inclined to vote Labour/Remain - what do I do if the Tories happen to be the 'Remain' party? What do you do? Its unlikely but a genuine question is if there was a choice between a brave new socialist world with a hard Corbyn Brexit or a Tory remainer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 19 minutes ago, Buce said: What exactly is anti-semitic about any of that? Does being Jewish give protected status from criticism now? I read it as Willsman promoting this as a right wing conspiracy (falsifying social media), and whether through clumsy wording or not, expressed views that tarnished and dismissed an entire community. I appreciate that in his comments he said "some of the Jewish community are Trump supporters", but he then extrapolates that further to draw conclusions across an entire community, and suggest that the rabbis who signed a letter are part of this conspiracy. I think Willsman is probably more of an idiot than anti-semite, which begs the question why he is so high up on the NEC. He launched into an angry diatribe when he could have just said something along the lines of, "Yes, there is anti-semitism, but I'd like to investigate it further to draw appropriate conclusions." I'm not sure what relevance Trump has in this other than to tarnish and treat all of this as made-up. The key question is probably more why he faced no action at all when Hodge and Austin are being investigated for speaking out? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said: What do you do? Its unlikely but a genuine question is if there was a choice between a brave new socialist world with a hard Corbyn Brexit or a Tory remainer? In all honesty, I have no idea, although I can't imagine a circumstance that would see me voting for the Tories. I'm sure I'm not alone in facing such a dilemma, which is why I don't support an election to sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 4 minutes ago, Buce said: I don't disagree with that but the problem I see is that elections are not fought on single issues; for example, I would be inclined to vote Labour/Remain - what do I do if the Tories happen to be the 'Remain' party? You vote on the issue/issues that are the most important to you, hopefully you'd get a choice at local level with the candidates offering alternatives But Labour is no more remain than the Tories are Brexit, I just don't see it as a party political issue which i guess makes it a difficult to decide with an election but then the referendum has hardly been a roaring success. The fundamental problem is a majority of the people have not got the EU they would like, it's gone to far too soon and is too politically driven rather than the original concept,at least according to the public statements of a standardisation to help with the exchange of goods and services on a level playing field. It's turned out great for politicians and global businesses but left so many ordinary people behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 14 minutes ago, Buce said: I don't disagree with that but the problem I see is that elections are not fought on single issues; for example, I would be inclined to vote Labour/Remain - what do I do if the Tories happen to be the 'Remain' party? There was talk after the referendum and it never happened. But I wonder whether we will see a centrist party emerge if there was another general election. If you are a remain MP who believes in the EU, can you really stand as an MP for either the conservatives or labour at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 18 minutes ago, Strokes said: I’m not against a second referendum, I just think it’s fanciful that TM would put her deal to the people. Nothing she has done so far in tenure would lead me to believe she would take that chance. If we are to get a say, she will be gone imo. 5 minutes ago, davieG said: A 2nd referendum will still produce lies, threats and unknown consequences. If people want a different out come they should be calling for a general election and make every candidate state clearly what the are standing on and let the people vote and let parliament decide as they should have done in the 1st place. Tend to agree with both of these comments - unless there's a massive shift in public opinion once the outcome of negotiations is known. Polls currently suggest a small lead for Remain, narrowly ahead of No Deal - and with very little support for May's proposals: - Firstly, it would currently be political suicide for her to put her proposals / likely deal to a referendum - Secondly, any referendum campaign would be absolutely toxic and massively divisive, probably including violence in the streets and racist attacks by a minority A general election would probably also be pretty toxic, to some extent depending on what stance the main parties adopted. But that would be somewhat diluted by the campaign not being ONLY about Brexit, though Brexit would still dominate. A second referendum would be justified if there was a much bigger, clearer shift to Remain once the negotiations conclude. Even then, there would be a toxic campaign - but that would be justified if such a real shift had occurred. But I don't see that happening, even if May comes back with a terrible deal or No Deal. I'd expect maybe a further slight shift to Remain, but also continued strong support for No Deal - a further polarisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, breadandcheese said: There was talk after the referendum and it never happened. But I wonder whether we will see a centrist party emerge if there was another general election. If you are a remain MP who believes in the EU, can you really stand as an MP for either the conservatives or labour at the moment? Personally, I think there is a consensus among the Labour membership to alter Labour's stance (I believe there is a motion planned for the next conference). I know Corbyn isn't keen on a second referendum but he may well have to concede the point. I certainly hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 Just now, Buce said: Personally, I think there is a consensus among the Labour membership to alter Labour's stance (I believe there is a motion planned for the next conference). I know Corbyn isn't keen on a second referendum but he may well have to concede the point. I certainly hope so. Surely if Labour adopt a remain policy then Corbyn would need to resign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 3 minutes ago, Buce said: Personally, I think there is a consensus among the Labour membership to alter Labour's stance (I believe there is a motion planned for the next conference). I know Corbyn isn't keen on a second referendum but he may well have to concede the point. I certainly hope so. Surely Corbyn would have to resign if that were to happen? You can't really implement his policy if you were inside the EU anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 1 minute ago, davieG said: Surely if Labour adopt a remain policy then Corbyn would need to resign? Why? Listening to the party is democratic, not a resignation matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 31 July 2018 Share Posted 31 July 2018 The elephant in the room here is that everyone thinks that the great unwashed are all stupid and don't know what they are doing and that is why we are in a mess ... and when they all wise up we will be able to quickly get ourselves out of it and return to the federal fold cap in hand. But, has anyone ever thought that maybe, just maybe, even though they have based their decisions on a few incendiary comments in The Sun and pub talk of immigrants arriving by the bus load, they have inadvertently made the RIGHT decision ... and all the so called 'experts' are actually WRONG ... It would be refreshingly nice just to actually get on with it, and, after armageddon does not materialise, sit back and watch the Federation crumble and fall apart ... just a thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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