Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Kopfkino]

21 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Were any British soldiers even injured and as such any of the protestors liable for anything more than (perhaps) disturbing the peace?

 

In this case, A British soldier is accused of attempted murder because his bullets knocked off some debris that caused injury. 

 

The IRA admit to firing shots at soldiers on the same day but that = just 'protestors' disturbing the peace?

 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

In this case, A British soldier is accused of attempted murder because his bullets knocked off some debris that caused injury. 

 

The IRA admit to firing shots at soldiers on the same day but that = just 'protestors' disturbing the peace?

 

 

 

One shot, from a gunman removed from the protestors, after two civilians had already been shot and wounded, according to the official report (at least as far as I can find).

 

I'm sorry, but there was no justification for what happened that day IMO - and just to be absolutely clear on my own position I think there was filth spewing forth from both sides during the Troubles, people should be held accountable on both sides, and take issue with any argument that paints either side as whiter than white.

[Guest MattP]

Is there a precident for suspending the leader of a political party?

 

 

[breadandcheese]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

On holocaust remembrance day as well.

 

I honestly thought he was just a bit naive, never thought he was an antisemite, thought he was prepared to tolerate it to justify hard critique of Israel but wasn't himself. 

 

Pretty sure now I was wrong.

 

Even John "lynch the bitch" McDonnell thinks he's gone too far this last few days.

 

I'm not sure why anyone actually believes his apology.  Why now at this stage of his career despite numerous warnings from people about the company he meets with, does he apologise?  None of his actions thus far suggest he has had some Damascene conversion of realisation or understanding? I think it's just to distract from events yesterday.

 

I see it as Labour is in a really sticky place after the recording of Wilsman.  Both Corbyn and Jennie Formby were at the NEC meeting, listening, and said nothing when Wilsman was ranting.  So when Corbyn says he fights racism and Jennie Formby says she takes the problem seriously, what do they mean?  They both sat there saying nothing.  It was then attempted to be swept under the carpet until the recording was released.

 

On a side note, there's now a lovely video of Corbyn floating around from 2012 when he was on Press TV suggesting Israel is behind a Jihadi terrorist attack that killed 16 Egyptian police.  People can argue whether it's anti-semitism or not but it is clearly xenophobic basing his opinion on nothing more than his existing prejudice and conspiracy theories.   

 

I suspect that McDonnell is positioning to take control of Labour because it's becoming clear that even traditional members of Labour are dismayed.  

[Webbo]

Sorry it's The Mail. I looked in the Guardian but for some reason they aren't covering it.

 

Japan today backed Britain joining a huge trans-Pacific trade zone after Brexit in a boost for the UK's hope of signing new deals for exports.

Experts had dismissed as 'unlikely' Britain hopes of joining the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), also known as TPP11.

But after meeting with International Trade Secretary Liam Fox in Tokyo today,  Japanese minister Toshimitsu Motegi said he would 'spare no efforts to support the UK' in joining CPTPP.

 

Mr Motegi said: 'I'd like to welcome your country's expression of interest in acceding to TPP11.

'Your expression of interest is indeed a great encouragement to our efforts to attach importance to the free-trade system based on rules, and to fight against protectionism.

'Japan will not spare any effort to support the UK, including providing relevant information, and acting as an intermediary to you in relation to other TPP member countries.'

 

Dr Fox welcomed Mr Motegi's support, which follows the recent EU-Japan Economic Partnership Agreement (EPA) between Theresa May and Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

He said: 'We have been very impressed by Prime Minister Abe's leadership of the TPP11.

'We think that it has enormous importance that goes beyond the economic importance to regional and global strategic importance, and we see both the UK's potential accession to CPTPP, and the enhancement of the EU-Japan EPA into a new and stronger relationship, as being the basis of our economic co-operation.

'And we think that the world's third biggest economy and the world's fifth biggest economy - where we share so much of a similar outlook, not least on the need to maintain an open, liberal, free-trading system based on international rules - make us ideal partners for the years ahead.'

 

Later in his trip, Dr Fox will meet Mr Abe and colleagues, British businesses and Japanese investors during the visit to discuss future trading relationships.

The Japanese government's support stands in contrast to a warning from Australia's former ambassador to the World Trade Organisation, Geoff Raby, who said the Chequers deal would limit the UK's participation. 

The CPTPP is a new free trade agreement bringing together 11 of the world's fastest-growing economies, including Australia, Canada, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico and Singapore.

Japan accounts for nearly half of the CPTPP's GDP, and is the UK's fifth largest trading partner with total trade worth £28 billion - up by nearly 15% in 2017.

CPTPP members accounted for £82 billion of UK trade in 2016, more than the Netherlands, France or China.

Eliminating tariffs and quotas between members and involving mutual recognition of regulations and rules on cross-border investment, CPTPP is seen as a swifter and more effective alternative to forging separate trade deals with individual member states.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6011785/Japan-backs-Britain-joining-trans-Pacific-trade-group.html

[breadandcheese]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

One shot, from a gunman removed from the protestors, after two civilians had already been shot and wounded, according to the official report (at least as far as I can find).

 

I'm sorry, but there was no justification for what happened that day IMO - and just to be absolutely clear on my own position I think there was filth spewing forth from both sides during the Troubles, people should be held accountable on both sides, and take issue with any argument that paints either side as whiter than white.

I think that with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, these events should be left in the past, and whilst not forgotten, there shouldn't be prosecutions.  Plenty of terrorists have been "let off" so I don't see why ex servicemen shouldn't have the same treatment. 

 

I'm not surprised that ex and current service men and women see this as a betrayal, when they put their lives on the line for the country.

[leicsmac]

Just now, breadandcheese said:

I think that with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, these events should be left in the past, and whilst not forgotten, there shouldn't be prosecutions.  Plenty of terrorists have been "let off" so I don't see why ex servicemen shouldn't have the same treatment. 

 

I'm not surprised that ex and current service men and women see this as a betrayal, when they put their lives on the line for the country.

That's a fair point - though what happened that day was unjustified and unjustifiable if you're going to be evenhanded you can't seek legal action if you're not going to do it for members of the IRA who weren't chased after the GFA.

 

(If that's also the point you were trying to make earlier Matt then I agree with it.)

[Guest MattP]

10 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm not sure why anyone actually believes his apology.  Why now at this stage of his career despite numerous warnings from people about the company he meets with, does he apologise?  None of his actions thus far suggest he has had some Damascene conversion of realisation or understanding? I think it's just to distract from events yesterday.

 

I see it as Labour is in a really sticky place after the recording of Wilsman.  Both Corbyn and Jennie Formby were at the NEC meeting, listening, and said nothing when Wilsman was ranting.  So when Corbyn says he fights racism and Jennie Formby says she takes the problem seriously, what do they mean?  They both sat there saying nothing.  It was then attempted to be swept under the carpet until the recording was released.

 

On a side note, there's now a lovely video of Corbyn floating around from 2012 when he was on Press TV suggesting Israel is behind a Jihadi terrorist attack that killed 16 Egyptian police.  People can argue whether it's anti-semitism or not but it is clearly xenophobic basing his opinion on nothing more than his existing prejudice and conspiracy theories.   

 

I suspect that McDonnell is positioning to take control of Labour because it's becoming clear that even traditional members of Labour are dismayed.  

He's definitely on manuveoures - I think he knows this can't really go on much longer.

 

I don't know why Corbyn bothers with the apology either, no one wants to hear it, our side doesn't believe it had any sincerity and the other side just believe it's more smear. The most worrying thing this week though was it wasn't a councillor or a social media troll, it was the other comments at a NEC meeting in the presence of the leader and no one said anything about it. It was only when they got caught the apology came and he promised to go on a diversity course. That shows you there is no intention of dealing with this. I saw the Egypt video as well, more insane foreign policy/conspiracy theory live on camera. It's to be expected now.

 

The Labour members aren't going to do anything about it as they don't have the power, the real question for me now is what the moderate Labour MP's are going to do, he's clearly the most totally inappropriate choice of a Prime Minister they have ever put up, they know it, we know it, the only ones who don't know are the cult that surround him. If they stand for election, go out knocking on doors and campaigning - they are trying to put him in Downing Street and that can only mean they are part of the problem, not the solution.

[leicsmac]

A question, as I'm looking for input on this as I'm unsure myself and curious about what others think:

 

Assuming that Corbyn favours Brexit and should he win a GE he would convince Labour to keep going through with it (possible/probable), how might it differ from a Brexit delivered by the Tories socially (in particular immigration controls and the like)? I doubt there would be much in the way of economic difference, but perhaps this might be? 

 

Is there much difference between the current Labour and Conservative leadership (and their voter base) concerning such a matter, do people think?

[urban.spaceman]

Tommy Robinson released. 

 

I have to be honest I'm baffled as to why it took this long...

 

...For me to realise that this was the perfect opportunity for me to paraphrase Life of Brian. 

 

"Welease Wobinson! He's a wobber! And a wacist! AND A PICKPOCKET!!"

 

I'm a devout Monty Python follower as well. Shame on me.  

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, Buce said:

Theresa May must push for even softer Brexit, says thinktank

Prime minister urged to offer more concessions to EU to minimise economic damage

 

Theresa May will be forced to offer further politically difficult concessions to the EU to minimise damage to the economy caused by Brexit, said one of the UK’s leading economic thinktanks.

The National Institute for Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said Britain was gripped by an epidemic of uncertainty about the terms of its EU departure, and warned that the government would have to pay a bigger financial contribution or accept higher migration to get the deal it wanted.

May has already lost two cabinet ministers – David Davis and Boris Johnson – after announcing plans for Brexit that involved prioritising trade in goods over services, while aiming to limit free movement of people.

 

But in its latest quarterly health check on the economy, the NIESR said May’s version of a soft Brexit was still not soft enough. The government was aiming for market access similar to that enjoyed by Switzerland but with a much tougher migration system. “In our view, the government will have to make significant concessions to the EU,” it said.

The thinktank said, that following the pick-up in activity after the sluggish start to the year, the economy was on course to grow by 1.4% in 2018 and by 1.75% each year thereafter.

It added, however, that even these modest growth rates relied on the UK continuing to have close to full access to the EU market for its goods and services.

The more limited proposals for market access in the recently published white paper would lead to a loss of output amounting to £500 per person over time, compared to a soft Brexit.

“The loss would be around £800 under a ‘no deal’ Brexit.

 

[Alf Bentley]

31 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is there a precident for suspending the leader of a political party?

 

 

Henry Bolton was sacked by UKIP a few months ago (as opposed to being defeated or deposed, which happens to plenty of leaders).

 

Major resigned and then re-stood successfully as leader, but that's different.

 

 

8 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

 

I suspect that McDonnell is positioning to take control of Labour because it's becoming clear that even traditional members of Labour are dismayed.  

 

My guess is that McDonnell already enjoys a lot of control over Labour's policy agenda. It's from his area (economy) that most significant policy proposals seem to emerge (plus Starmer on Brexit and a few others).

I'm afraid that I don't see much sign that Corbyn is clued up about policy formation, tactics or strategy. He just seems to have a checklist of moral beliefs - though he did a lot better as a public performer at the election than I expected.

 

As someone who usually votes Labour, I'd be a lot happier if McDonnell were leader. Not because I think Corbyn is some hateful anti-Semite, but because he seems a bit dim.

McDonnell comes across as shrewder on policy, tactics and strategy. Probably a more ruthless, calculating bloke, but those are not necessarily bad qualities in a leader - so long as others don't allow the leader unchecked control.

Ironically, because McDonnell is more of a tactician/strategist, I reckon he'd also be more open to sensible compromise in office than Corbyn despite his calculating nature.

A leader doesn't have to be super-intelligent if they appoint the right ministers, delegate and oversee the appointees. But some degree of shrewdness is pretty necessary in a leader - and I'm not sure Corbyn has that.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Henry Bolton was sacked by UKIP a few months ago (as opposed to being defeated or deposed, which happens to plenty of leaders).

 

Major resigned and then re-stood successfully as leader, but that's different.

 

My guess is that McDonnell already enjoys a lot of control over Labour's policy agenda. It's from his area (economy) that most significant policy proposals seem to emerge (plus Starmer on Brexit and a few others).

I'm afraid that I don't see much sign that Corbyn is clued up about policy formation, tactics or strategy. He just seems to have a checklist of moral beliefs - though he did a lot better as a public performer at the election than I expected.

 

As someone who usually votes Labour, I'd be a lot happier if McDonnell were leader. Not because I think Corbyn is some hateful anti-Semite, but because he seems a bit dim.

McDonnell comes across as shrewder on policy, tactics and strategy. Probably a more ruthless, calculating bloke, but those are not necessarily bad qualities in a leader - so long as others don't allow the leader unchecked control.

Ironically, because McDonnell is more of a tactician/strategist, I reckon he'd also be more open to sensible compromise in office than Corbyn despite his calculating nature.

A leader doesn't have to be super-intelligent if they appoint the right ministers, delegate and oversee the appointees. But some degree of shrewdness is pretty necessary in a leader - and I'm not sure Corbyn has that.

My first thought was Bolton but I don't think he was ever suspended? I might be wrong though.

 

I think McDonnell is the right man for the job now, as you say he's probably the one running the show anyway and with the radical economic changes he'll look to implement he should be in the top seat. 

 

Whether he has the (how he got it I don't know but he did) cuddly persona Corbyn got that delivered votes I don't know. 

[Alf Bentley]

Sounds like a massive and potentially very damaging cock-up by the judge who jailed Tommy Robinson.

 

Apparently Robinson has been released because the judge acted with undue haste and without waiting for all the evidence - and made various procedural errors.

But he'll now be brought back for another hearing on the same charges.

 

Hard to imagine it working out better for Robinson. He achieves "martyred man of the people" status by getting banged up. Then the Appeal Court "confirms" his supporters' beliefs that he's been "stitched up by the liberal establishment".

So he gets released on bail with hero status.....only to be brought back for another high-profile hearing. He wins either way at the next hearing. If he's convicted and banged up again, his martyr status rises; if he's acquitted, his hero status rises!

 

I bet Robinson cannot believe his luck. The legal system seems to have done its utmost to raise his status as "the people's hero" just before a likely furore over the Brexit outcome and immigration.

He must be pissing himself laughing.

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

Sounds like a massive and potentially very damaging cock-up by the judge who jailed Tommy Robinson.

 

Apparently Robinson has been released because the judge acted with undue haste and without waiting for all the evidence - and made various procedural errors.

But he'll now be brought back for another hearing on the same charges.

 

Hard to imagine it working out better for Robinson. He achieves "martyred man of the people" status by getting banged up. Then the Appeal Court "confirms" his supporters' beliefs that he's been "stitched up by the liberal establishment".

So he gets released on bail with hero status.....only to be brought back for another high-profile hearing. He wins either way at the next hearing. If he's convicted and banged up again, his martyr status rises; if he's acquitted, his hero status rises!

 

I bet Robinson cannot believe his luck. The legal system seems to have done its utmost to raise his status as "the people's hero" just before a likely furore over the Brexit outcome and immigration.

He must be pissing himself laughing.

 

Yep, what a fvck up.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Sounds like a massive and potentially very damaging cock-up by the judge who jailed Tommy Robinson.

 

Apparently Robinson has been released because the judge acted with undue haste and without waiting for all the evidence - and made various procedural errors.

But he'll now be brought back for another hearing on the same charges.

 

Hard to imagine it working out better for Robinson. He achieves "martyred man of the people" status by getting banged up. Then the Appeal Court "confirms" his supporters' beliefs that he's been "stitched up by the liberal establishment".

So he gets released on bail with hero status.....only to be brought back for another high-profile hearing. He wins either way at the next hearing. If he's convicted and banged up again, his martyr status rises; if he's acquitted, his hero status rises!

 

I bet Robinson cannot believe his luck. The legal system seems to have done its utmost to raise his status as "the people's hero" just before a likely furore over the Brexit outcome and immigration.

He must be pissing himself laughing.

 

You couldn’t make it up.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Tommy Robinson released. 

 

I have to be honest I'm baffled as to why it took this long...

 

...For me to realise that this was the perfect opportunity for me to paraphrase Life of Brian. 

 

"Welease Wobinson! He's a wobber! And a wacist! AND A PICKPOCKET!!"

 

I'm a devout Monty Python follower as well. Shame on me.  

 

Released on bail... to face a further trial for the same Contempt of Court I understand.

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Sounds like a massive and potentially very damaging cock-up by the judge who jailed Tommy Robinson.

 

Apparently Robinson has been released because the judge acted with undue haste and without waiting for all the evidence - and made various procedural errors.

But he'll now be brought back for another hearing on the same charges.

 

Hard to imagine it working out better for Robinson. He achieves "martyred man of the people" status by getting banged up. Then the Appeal Court "confirms" his supporters' beliefs that he's been "stitched up by the liberal establishment".

So he gets released on bail with hero status.....only to be brought back for another high-profile hearing. He wins either way at the next hearing. If he's convicted and banged up again, his martyr status rises; if he's acquitted, his hero status rises!

 

I bet Robinson cannot believe his luck. The legal system seems to have done its utmost to raise his status as "the people's hero" just before a likely furore over the Brexit outcome and immigration.

He must be pissing himself laughing.

Spot on, some sort of investigation needed as well.

 

Was he persecuted by the judge because of his political views? If he wasn't they are going to need a damn good excuse as to why sentence was passed so quickly without all evidence looked at - incompetence isn't going to cut it after all the publicity around it.

 

What a nightmare of a case the next judge as well, whatever the verdict it's going to look like a stitch up. 

Edited 1 August 2018 by MattP

[urban.spaceman]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Sounds like a massive and potentially very damaging cock-up by the judge who jailed Tommy Robinson.

 

Apparently Robinson has been released because the judge acted with undue haste and without waiting for all the evidence - and made various procedural errors.

But he'll now be brought back for another hearing on the same charges.

 

Hard to imagine it working out better for Robinson. He achieves "martyred man of the people" status by getting banged up. Then the Appeal Court "confirms" his supporters' beliefs that he's been "stitched up by the liberal establishment".

So he gets released on bail with hero status.....only to be brought back for another high-profile hearing. He wins either way at the next hearing. If he's convicted and banged up again, his martyr status rises; if he's acquitted, his hero status rises!

 

I bet Robinson cannot believe his luck. The legal system seems to have done its utmost to raise his status as "the people's hero" just before a likely furore over the Brexit outcome and immigration.

He must be pissing himself laughing.

 

I said similar back in the now deleted Robinson thread. There was an obvious legal justification for jailing him - he did plead guilty after all - but the speed in which it was done would convince few of his supporters and to some would turn him into a martyr. Half a million signed the petition for ****s sake! The authorities yet again are utterly clueless in how to deal with him; every single time they try to do something they make the wrong decision and only make his voice louder and his support bigger.

 

Absolute omnishambles.

[Guest MattP]

If this is true it's absolutely appalling. 

[breadandcheese]

With all the baggage surrounding Tommy Robinson, what a tw@t of a judge to rush it and create this situation.  Robinson and his supporters shouldn't be allowed to turn this into a propaganda circus, which they inevitably will.

[urban.spaceman]

17 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Released on bail... to face a further trial for the same Contempt of Court I understand.

 

Will the judge be prosecuted for contempt of court for not giving him a fair trial?

[Bellend Sebastian]

I just hope this means things can get back to normal at the tanning salon

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

With all the baggage surrounding Tommy Robinson, what a tw@t of a judge to rush it and create this situation.  Robinson and his supporters shouldn't be allowed to turn this into a propaganda circus, which they inevitably will.

I do agree with this but if they hadn't done this (and fundraised) he might still be in prison.

 

Some questions about how the justice system is working really need answering at the minute, him being jailed without being able to defend himself, a host of men being hauled up on laughable evidence to be acquitted of rape charges sometimes within minutes, violent criminal having to have courts re-intervene because sentences were too light.

[Sharpe's Fox]

how long until Our Tommy TM is turned into a legitimate political figure by the BBC