Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I'm beginning to wish I had voted Labour ATM, their brexit stance seems much more robust from the outside.

It does, although as @toddybad has said, some of them might be lying just to get votes.

 

It's amazing they campaigned like this in London though in places like Ealing on the manifesto they stood on, how did they think they were going to get away with it? (well I suppose they did, a +12 swing to Labour, it's upto the voters to ask questions) I mean just look at this given the manifesto she was standing on

 

The "nasty Tory" in me appreciates the chicanery and prestidigitation to get elected by these means.

 

 

The guy standing in the doorway is either a solid Brexiteer, or has actually read the party position on the European Union.

Edited 27 July 2017 by MattP

[The Floyd]

11 hours ago, toddybad said:

I wouldn't care which party were in charge it's an absolute disgrace that the government are not doing more NOW to stop the estimated 50,000 deaths a year caused by polluted air.

 

Government's air quality plan branded inadequate by city leaders

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/26/governments-air-quality-plan-is-cynical-headline-grabbing-say-critics?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Pretty sure that 'fact' has been debunked numerous times. Would highly recommend you watch the Andrew Neil interview with John Sauven below.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr0b9S8JMio

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39129270

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

It does, although as @toddybad has said, some of them might be lying just to get votes.

 

It's amazing they campaigned like this in London though in places like Ealing on the manifesto they stood on, how did they think they were going to get away with it? (well I suppose they did, a +12 swing to Labour, it's upto the voters to ask questions) I mean just look at this given the manifesto she was standing on

 

The "nasty Tory" in me appreciates the chicanery and prestidigitation to get elected by these means.

 

 

The guy standing in the doorway is either a solid Brexiteer, or has actually read the party position on the European Union.

Are you sure this isn't from the referendum?

[Guest MattP]

36 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Are you sure this isn't from the referendum?

Pretty sure given they have banners saying "Elect Rupa Huq".

 

What do you think of it?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Deary Me.........Apparently Comrade Corbyn isn't far left and he doesn't want us to be like Venezuela.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4733972/EU-bad-poor-Corbyn-told-Nicolas-Maduro.html

 

And McDonnell says we do or maybe we don't want to be part of the single market. What a clueless lying bunch, seems they will say anything to mislead the electorate:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4735012/Labour-s-chaos-Brexit-deepens.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/833573/Brexit-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-Labour-Party-at-odds-over-UK-European-Union-exit

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/25/labour-brexit-chaos-tear-party-apart-splits-europe

[Rincewind]

exactly what the Tories did. It is called politics and it is what politicians do. They will say and do anything to hold onto or get into power. It is the electorate and ordinary bloke that gets shafted. I learnt that a long time ago. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

But I though Corbyn sell themselves on good honest politics which is clearly also a lie. So we have identified they are just them same.

[Guest MattP]

47 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

exactly what the Tories did. It is called politics and it is what politicians do. They will say and do anything to hold onto or get into power. It is the electorate and ordinary bloke that gets shafted. I learnt that a long time ago. 

Which Conservative campaigned on a soft Brexit? I doubt even KC wrapped himself in the flag around Rushcliffe.

Edited 27 July 2017 by MattP

[Kopfkino]

Only just noticed the CBI manufacturing figures, strangely not much coverage from Guardian, FT or BBC. I wonder why that is. Highest output figures since 99 and higher order book figures since 88.

[davieG]

Seemingly much ado about nothing.

 

The UK should not accept imports of chlorinated chickens as part of any future trade deal with the US, Michael Gove has said.

The environment secretary told the BBC that the UK would not "compromise" on or "dilute" its animal welfare standards in the interests of trade.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Pretty sure given they have banners saying "Elect Rupa Huq".

 

What do you think of it?

Seems a bit odd to have made the eu the big thing when the labour position was essentially a nicer version of diplomacy with a similar aim of leaving the single market. Still preferred the labour position. 

 

2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

But I though Corbyn sell themselves on good honest politics which is clearly also a lie. So we have identified they are just them same.

I don't think this is true. It's simply one labour mp giving a quote hoping they'll change direction. I don't expect them to.

 

1 hour ago, davieG said:

Seemingly much ado about nothing.

 

The UK should not accept imports of chlorinated chickens as part of any future trade deal with the US, Michael Gove has said.

The environment secretary told the BBC that the UK would not "compromise" on or "dilute" its animal welfare standards in the interests of trade.

Will disappoint those on here who said only two days ago that they believe our standards to be ott.

 

1 hour ago, KingGTF said:

Only just noticed the CBI manufacturing figures, strangely not much coverage from Guardian, FT or BBC. I wonder why that is. Highest output figures since 99 and higher order book figures since 88.

Haven't seen these i must admit. The different figures out really do paint a confusing picture of Britain's economy atm. I still point to the fact that this is not having the impact you'd how for in the lives of ordinary people. Business making money but not passing on good news to employees. 

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Seems a bit odd to have made the eu the big thing when the labour position was essentially a nicer version of diplomacy with a similar aim of leaving the single market. Still preferred the labour position. 

Maybe Acton and Ealing voting 72% remain had something to do with it?

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

Maybe Acton and Ealing voting 72% remain had something to do with it?

Yeah i realise but the labour position was repeated ad nauseum throughout the election campaign

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Yeah i realise but the labour position was repeated ad nauseum throughout the election campaign

They took different messages to different parts of the country, have a look at the contrast between Rupa Haq and Gareth Snell in their message.

 

As I say, I'm sort of impressed by it in a way, it takes front and effort to do that to voters on a mass scale, he'd never admit it but Corbyn and he team are actually very good at the dark arts politics, even more impressed when you think it's only two years since his "new, honest, gentler" politics speech.

[davieG]

I've never known a time when one half of a political party didn't know  or contradicted the other half so much as we have now with both Labour and the Tories. What sort of leadership does this show, it really is shockingly bad. Sure we've had the off rebellious MP but even then they were mostly dealt with.

I'm all for principled politicians but this all comes across as basic incompetence by the perpetrators and their leaders.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

They took different messages to different parts of the country, have a look at the contrast between Rupa Haq and Gareth Snell in their message.

 

As I say, I'm sort of impressed by it in a way, it takes front and effort to do that to voters on a mass scale, he'd never admit it but Corbyn and he team are actually very good at the dark arts politics, even more impressed when you think it's only two years since his "new, honest, gentler" politics speech.

I think it's less dark arts and more not much time to prepare tbh. I have seen some signs since the election that corbyn is beginning to act more like a true leader in traditional terms but i doubt that there has been any attempt to play tory style dirty tricks upon the  electorate. 

[Captain...]

14 hours ago, MattP said:

It does, although as @toddybad has said, some of them might be lying just to get votes.

 

It's amazing they campaigned like this in London though in places like Ealing on the manifesto they stood on, how did they think they were going to get away with it? (well I suppose they did, a +12 swing to Labour, it's upto the voters to ask questions) I mean just look at this given the manifesto she was standing on

 

The "nasty Tory" in me appreciates the chicanery and prestidigitation to get elected by these means.

 

 

The guy standing in the doorway is either a solid Brexiteer, or has actually read the party position on the European Union.

To be fair to Konnie's sister, she defied the whip in the single market vote (although didn't get fired from her shadow cabinet position) and has consistently voted against Brexit.

 

She is very much pro EU and campaigned  accordingly. 

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

I think it's less dark arts and more not much time to prepare tbh. I have seen some signs since the election that corbyn is beginning to act more like a true leader in traditional terms but i doubt that there has been any attempt to play tory style dirty tricks upon the  electorate. 

Yes I thought it would be acceptable as soon as it was Corbyn doing it, funny that.

 

43 minutes ago, Captain... said:

To be fair to Konnie's sister, she defied the whip in the single market vote (although didn't get fired from her shadow cabinet position) and has consistently voted against Brexit.

 

She is very much pro EU and campaigned  accordingly. 

Quick correction, she resigned a few days before the vote from the shadow cabinet so she could go against the whip.

 

I find it strange though, how someone so pro-EU can stand on that manifesto I really don't know. Although it was a chance to save her seat and it worked.

[Captain...]

7 hours ago, MattP said:

Quick correction, she resigned a few days before the vote from the shadow cabinet so she could go against the whip.

 

I find it strange though, how someone so pro-EU can stand on that manifesto I really don't know. Although it was a chance to save her seat and it worked.

Ah fair enough, I was trying to check last night and the article said she kept her position in the shadow cabinet, so much fake news.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-corbyn-single-market-rebellion-mps-fired-sacked-list-full-chuka-umunna-amendment-a7815616.html

I don't know how much choice you have as the sitting MP, the manifesto was hardly UKIPian, Brexit was only a small part of it. The rest of it was very left leaning. The other side of it is nobody predicted Corbyn's surge in popularity, so for pro-EU/anti-Corbyn ministers it was probably a case of do what you can to keep your seat and let Jeremy fail, then call for a new leader. At least she has kept her campaign promises to oppose Brexit. Personally I applaud her integrity and don't think she has been at all hypocritical.

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, MattP said:

Yes I thought it would be acceptable as soon as it was Corbyn doing it, funny that.

 

Quick correction, she resigned a few days before the vote from the shadow cabinet so she could go against the whip.

 

I find it strange though, how someone so pro-EU can stand on that manifesto I really don't know. Although it was a chance to save her seat and it worked.

I haven't seen anything suggesting that corbyn has changed his line. 

Edited 28 July 2017 by Guest

[Guest Foxin_mad]

17 hours ago, toddybad said:

 

 

I don't think this is true. It's simply one labour mp giving a quote hoping they'll change direction. I don't expect them to.

 

 

There seems to be a lot more than 1 Labour MP, Kier Stammer seems to be very pro single market, McDonnell spoke about it in a confused manner basically saying he wanted his cake and to eat it!

9 hours ago, toddybad said:

I think it's less dark arts and more not much time to prepare tbh. I have seen some signs since the election that corbyn is beginning to act more like a true leader in traditional terms but i doubt that there has been any attempt to play tory style dirty tricks upon the  electorate. 

Corbyn and the Labour party are up to some right 'dirty tricks' the Tories have only recently been capable of mass incompetence.

 

In terms of dirty tricks Labour have promised a load of stuff they cant afford in their manifesto, and now they are back tracking on promises to students who double voted for them! They completely didn't engage with the EU referendum vote, if Corbyn and the Momentum marketing machine had been bothered about staying in the EU we would have seen mass social media marketing, and scum painted all over leave posters by 'labour activists'. Momentum are full of dirty dirty ticks, a truly vile bunch of people full of nothing but hate. Unfortunately this lot are as good at the dark arts as any party in history, they will stop at nothing to gain power and setup on us their socialist revolution.

[Lionator]

25 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

There seems to be a lot more than 1 Labour MP, Kier Stammer seems to be very pro single market, McDonnell spoke about it in a confused manner basically saying he wanted his cake and to eat it!

Corbyn and the Labour party are up to some right 'dirty tricks' the Tories have only recently been capable of mass incompetence.

 

In terms of dirty tricks Labour have promised a load of stuff they cant afford in their manifesto, and now they are back tracking on promises to students who double voted for them! They completely didn't engage with the EU referendum vote, if Corbyn and the Momentum marketing machine had been bothered about staying in the EU we would have seen mass social media marketing, and scum painted all over leave posters by 'labour activists'. Momentum are full of dirty dirty ticks, a truly vile bunch of people full of nothing but hate. Unfortunately this lot are as good at the dark arts as any party in history, they will stop at nothing to gain power and setup on us their socialist revolution.

Let's dispell this myth, me and my fellow students didn't vote for Corbyn under the expectation that he'd wipe our debt, from my viewpoint I never expected that. We didn't vote because he offered free education (although that's a plus) and the overwhelming majority who this would benefit aren't even old enough to vote yet. We voted in numbers for Labour because we were offered something different and a politician actually tried engaging with young people for the first time in my lifetime. And the double voting thing is straight from the Daily Mail, there's absolutely no proof that this has happened anywhere, but you can believe those delusions if you so wish.

Edited 28 July 2017 by Lionator

[The Floyd]

22 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Let's dispell this myth, me and my fellow students didn't vote for Corbyn under the expectation that he'd wipe our debt, from my viewpoint I never expected that. We didn't vote because he offered free education (although that's a plus) and the overwhelming majority who this would benefit aren't even old enough to vote yet. We voted in numbers for Labour because we were offered something different and a politician actually tried engaging with young people for the first time in my lifetime. And the double voting thing is straight from the Daily Mail, there's absolutely no proof that this has happened anywhere, but you can believe those delusions if you so wish.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/watchdog-investigates-claims-of-people-voting-twice-at-general-election

 

[Lionator]

11 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/watchdog-investigates-claims-of-people-voting-twice-at-general-election

 

If this actually goes beyond an investigation then I'll take back my word but I feel it's easy to blame this for Corbyn's rise at the election when the Tories are completely blind to how out of touch they are with young people.

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

I haven't seen anything suggesting that corbyn has changed his line. 

Corbyn himself hasn't, he's made it pretty clear leaving the EU means leaving the single market. The party though doesn't seem to know it's arse from it's elbow, it appears no one in the cabinet in talking to anyone else.

 

This week so far,

 

Sunday: Corbyn appears on Marr on and tells us we have to leave the single market.

Monday: Barry Gardner writes a column in the Guardian saying we'll leave the single market and the customs union.

Wednesday: McDonnell says it's not out of question we stay in single market

Thursday: Diane Abbott says on Newsnight staying in single market it is still on the table (Then absolute hilarity ensues as she literally starts the answer to the next question with "When we leave the single market....)

 

Who knows what the position will be today?

 

Just imagine if this lot were actually now in negotiations, what a complete and utter shambles it would be. Not getting papers out of a bag for a photo would be the last of our worries.

Edited 28 July 2017 by MattP